Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Leandro]

Tank Updates [Experimental Changes]

Damage Scale

• Tanker: Ranged damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.8, Melee damage modifier increased from 0.8 to 0.95
  • Bruise has been removed in favour of a flat damage scale increase
• Brute : Ranged and Melee damage modifiers are now equal.
• Epic Pools: All Brute and Tanker Epic pools now use ranged damage modifiers
  • Due to the above changes, Epic Pools should see no damage change at all.

Stats

• Tanker base endurance has been increased to 120, to reflect the fact that they kill slower, but last longer in combat.
• Tanker damage cap to 600%, this would increase the max Tanker damage potential when grouped.

AoEs

• Most Tanker Melee AoE powers have had their target caps increased. Most cones are now 10 target cap. Most PBAoE are now 16 target cap.
• Tanker Taunts now have a 10 target cap.
• Most Tanker AoE powers now extend to inflict damage and other effects beyond their radius or arcs.

  • As part of their inherent power, tankers get a buff that works similar to Boost Range, but it boosts Radius and Arc of powers.

  • The arc of Cones gets boosted by +100% and the radius of PBAoEs are boosted by +100%.

  • This means a 90 degree cone will actually cover a 180 area, while a 10ft PBAoE will cover 20ft.

  • Almost all cones with over 90 degree arc, or AoE with over a 10ft radius, ignores this buff.

 

Gauntlet

• Is now applied via a global proc. Any single target power that takes accuracy enhancements will trigger an AoE taunt. Every AoE power that takes accuracy enhancements will taunt the enemies it hit.
• Radius is now the same for all attacks (15ft, 5 targets max)
• Taunt scale is now 10% higher than Brute's
• Brute PunchVoke is now also applied via a global proc. Any power that either inflicts damage or takes accuracy enhancements will be able to punch-voke.)

 

Power Levels

• In an attempt to help tanker progression, Tanker T1 and T2 powers have been exchanged for the following sets:
  • Battle Axe
  • Claws
  • Dark Melee
  • Energy Melee
  • Fiery Melee
  • Ice Melee
  • Katana
  • Kinetic Attack
  • Martial Arts
  • Psionic Melee
  • Radiation Melee
  • Savage Melee
  • Staff Fighting
  • Street Justice
  • Super Strength
  • War Mace
• To improve Tanker AoE capability during level up progression, the following powers had their acquisition levels changed:
  • Battle Axe > Whirling Axe = 20, Swoop = 28
  • Martial Arts > Dragon Tail = 20, Focus Chi = 28, Crippling Axe Kick = 34
  • Stone Melee > Tremor = 20, Fault = 35
  • War Mace > Whirling Mace = 20, Clobber = 28

Edited September 11, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Vanden]

11 minutes ago, Leandro said:

• Tanker base endurance has been increased to 120, to reflect the fact that they kill slower, but last longer in combat.

Oh boy, if this goes live I'm gonna have to make new charts.

11 minutes ago, Leandro said:

In an attempt to help tanker progression, Tanker T1 and T2 powers have been exchanged for the following sets:

Is it feasible, rather than making this change, to simply make Tankers able to choose the T1 or T2 power at creation?

Edited September 10, 2019 by Vanden

[ShogunGunshow]

Can't say I'm a fan of the 'fix' for Tankers being just to make them more Brute-like. 

[Psi]

My initial reaction is to say I do not like the idea of removing the bruise mechanic.
It was a nice way to differentiate Tankers from Brutes, in that it made them a relatively unique support option, akin to a Sonic Blast Defender? I don't like just making them diet brutes. IMO, of course.

[Steampunkette]

... I love you.

[Crimsanotic]

3 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Can't say I'm a fan of the 'fix' for Tankers being just to make them more Brute-like. 

I 100% agree.

Buffing tanks offensively is not the move.

[Vanden]

Just now, Crimsanotic said:

I 100% agree.

Buffing tanks offensively is not the move.

I think it works. Tanker base damage has been increased by the same amount that Bruising would add to your attacks, so the only real increase in damage is to the Tanker's AoE attacks.

[Keleko]

Katana at least may be a poor choice for swapping T1 and T2 attacks.  Current T1 Katana is higher damage than the T2.

[Rooks]

I like the damage cap idea, them scaling offense with teams helps to avoid the issue of brutes scaling better in teams overall due to their survivability going way up with buffs (to catch tankers) and effective damage cap being higher too. It makes tanks slightly less suboptimal in team scenarios. You can buff up a brute's survivability to make him into a tank that does damage, and now you can buff up a tank's damage to make him in to a tank that does damage as well.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Rooks
Typo

[Profit]

Yeah, this is not exactly an offensive buff, this is what if bruising was applied on all attacks.

[Haijinx]

Wow.  These changes are huge.  Seems like a lot to add in all at once.

[Crimsanotic]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

I think it works. Tanker base damage has been increased by the same amount that Bruising would add to your attacks, so the only real increase in damage is to the Tanker's AoE attacks.

Their damage cap was also increased by a fairly significant amount.

[Brutal Justice]

I like the higher base endurance.  I won’t really miss bruising.  I don’t think higher damage is the way to go to differentiate tanks.

 

I am absolutely opposed to fault being swapped with tremor and moved to lvl 35!   Fault, to me, is a corner stone of stone melee.  You’re reducing my tanking ability in exchange for minor aoe!  I am a tank first, damage second!

Edited September 10, 2019 by Mr.Sinister

[Profit]

Just now, Crimsanotic said:

Their damage cap was also increased by a fairly significant amount.

Damage cap does not equal damage increase. All it means is that if a team with damage buffs wants to invest in the tank then the tank will do more damage. It's the flip side of the coin of teams investing in a brutes survivability with force fields or the awesome ice shield.

[Zodai]

I'm a fan of the tanker endurance changes!  Definitely something that gives Tankers a leg up while still making them distinct from brutes.

 

That said though, I'm not knowledgeable enough to give a clear opinion on the other changes myself.  I do agree that it's important that Tanker and Brute have things that make them distinct from one another while both being viable.

[MechaMarshmallow]

2 minutes ago, Keleko said:

Katana at least may be a poor choice for swapping T1 and T2 attacks.  Current T1 Katana is higher damage than the T2.

The damage per animation time is slightly higher on the T2, and the T2 recharges faster as well, so I believe the T2 would be the preferable option for tankers to be obliged to take.

[Vanden]

Possible bug? I checked the numbers on the Live shards for Tanker secondary attacks, and they're the same as they are on Pineapple, despite Tanker's supposedly having higher modifiers on Pineapple.

[Rooks]

I did quite like the bruising mechanic though, it was a fun addition to the overall tank playstyle imo. As a team centric AT, it's nice to have a two-fold reason to spam T1s about the place. Making stuff hit you instead of squishier teammates is one kind of value, incentivising teammates into attacking mobs that are already agrod to you in the form of extra damage from the -res made it even more valuable. I liked the depth it added over other melee characters whose primary job it is to spam as many DPAs into whatever enemy looks like it most needs dying at any given time

[BlastLord]

I sure love the updates on the tanks i have a tank I need to work on as well.

[Crimsanotic]

Just now, Profit said:

Damage cap does not equal damage increase. All it means is that if a team with damage buffs wants to invest in the tank then the tank will do more damage. It's the flip side of the coin of teams investing in a brutes survivability with force fields or the awesome ice shield.

Quite a few damage buffs are AoE and FF and Cold Dom's buffs are AoE and permanent so neither of those sets are picking or choosing who to buff. Fortitude is one of the only single target defense buffs I can think of.

Increasing their damage cap -is- an offensive buff though, since that means a tank can spam yet more reds than they could before, or benefit from Fulcrum better, or literally any other damage buff. And in addition to treading on brute territory, buffing tanks offensively gives them overlap with even scrappers.

[Brutal Justice]

Proliferate regen!

[Unknown Magi]

1 minute ago, Mr.Sinister said:

Proliferate regen!

This is a thread about buffs, not nerfs 😜

[ShogunGunshow]

1 minute ago, Crimsanotic said:

Quite a few damage buffs are AoE and FF and Cold Dom's buffs are AoE and permanent so neither of those sets are picking or choosing who to buff. Fortitude is one of the only single target defense buffs I can think of.

Increasing their damage cap -is- an offensive buff though, since that means a tank can spam yet more reds than they could before, or benefit from Fulcrum better, or literally any other damage buff. And in addition to treading on brute territory, buffing tanks offensively gives them overlap with even scrappers.

The increase to the AoE cap is pretty explicitly an offensive buff, as well.

 

Like, I get why, because buffing tank survivability doesn't mean anything, because tanks at caps in groups are pretty much invincible. But that's only a problem because Brutes can achieve the same caps, and do damage on top of it.

 

What you have to do is kind of obvious, but it's a band-aid that no one wants to rip off. So this is what we get.

[Rooks]

1 minute ago, Crimsanotic said:

Quite a few damage buffs are AoE and FF and Cold Dom's buffs are AoE and permanent so neither of those sets are picking or choosing who to buff. Fortitude is one of the only single target defense buffs I can think of.

Increasing their damage cap -is- an offensive buff though, since that means a tank can spam yet more reds than they could before, or benefit from Fulcrum better, or literally any other damage buff. And in addition to treading on brute territory, buffing tanks offensively gives them overlap with even scrappers.

I think the point was that brutes can be buffed easily into having tank or better defensive numbers because defense and resistance buffs are easy to come by, and brutes share tank hp and resistance hard caps. So a buffed up brute is automatically better than a tank because, everything being capped (including damage), a brute is just as hard to kill as a tank but does more damage. All increasing the tank damage cap increase does is lessen this theoretical advantage. Now tanks are less wasted in buff heavy teams

[honoraryorange]

Speaking purely from a grouping standpoint (think max buffs, Fulcrum shift, etc):

 

Sometimes people will ask "What is the point of tankers?" when they have a bunch of Brutes around.

With these changes though, "What is the point of Brutes?"

 

As others have said, making them more Brute-like, but with way better taunts, is not the solution.

 

I feel like this is WAY too sweeping of a change to the Archetype. It'd be much better served with maybe 1/4 of these changes going live and seeing how things settle.

 

Also, what is the point of the 120 base Endurance? I don't think any of my tankers have had real endurance issues except maybe in the pre-30 timeframe.