Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Auroxis]

4 minutes ago, Vanden said:

If you had three Tankers on a team, everything they’d fight would have -60 resistance. A full team of Tankers would be fighting enemies at -160 res. Absolutely nothing can compare to that level of damage output.

Corruptors and defenders can match that and then some.

 

I'm not asking to make bruising AoE btw.

[Captain Powerhouse]

8 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

Considering them side by side, if you're using those inspiration slots for purples/oranges then the tanker will be dealing more damage than the brute, with more flexibility to bring red insps where a brute would need to bring oranges, purples, or even possibly blue insps with wider aoes and better endurance management. The damage cap is being set so high with team buffs and inspirations in mind so it should be a factor. 

We can easily spend the entire day playing inspiration Jenga to find one configuration of inspirations that benefit someone better than someone else, one of the many reasons why inspiration usage is just not part of any balancing process.

 

Plus, new hardcore content can always be created that blocks the usage of inspirations.

 

The damage cap is not being set with inspirations in mind, it's being set in place with team buffs in mind.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Auroxis]

10 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Multiple tankers that have to do nothing but use their best attacks. 3 tankers instantly do more damage than 3 equivalent scrappers, and they would be nearly  undefeatable while doing it, AND have -range equiped AoE taunts to herd a map around quickly.

Then don't have it apply to all attacks.

 

Also, add one Cold/Sonic defender to the mix and you'll see the Scrappers pull ahead in terms of damage. And keep in mind Scrappers can equip -res procs as well as having access to small -res debuffs in bio/tw/staff/stj.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Auroxis

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Then don't have it apply to all attacks.

 

Also, add one Cold/Sonic defender to the mix and you'll see the Scrappers pull ahead in terms of damage. And keep in mind Scrappers can equip -res procs as well as having access to small -res debuffs in bio/tw/staff/stj.

I don't think they are balancing around procs, but Captain can correct me if wrong.

 

EDIT: But the idea to add it to some attacks might be a good one. (Despite how I think Bruising just needs to be outright replaced with something more useful).

Edited September 19, 2019 by golstat2003

[Auroxis]

4 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I don't think they are balancing around procs, but Captain can correct me if wrong.

 

EDIT: But the idea to add it to some attacks might be a good one. (Despite how I think Bruising just needs to be outright replaced with something more useful).

Having it apply only to single target attacks could work well.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Little known fact: Achilles Heel proc does not stack from multiple procs, powers or casters even.

 

That being said: it is a whole different ball game to have defender/corruptors doing -res debuffing, it is their role and not every single one of them does it, it's a set by set design thing, not a universal trait.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Auroxis]

Just now, Captain Powerhouse said:

Little known fact: Achilles Heel proc does not stack from multiple procs, powers or casters even.

Yes, but it does stack with Annihilation and Fury of the Gladiator.

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, Auroxis said:

Yes, but it does stack with Annihilation and Fury of the Gladiator.

Are you inferring that Tanker should have 3 different kinds of Bruising?

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 minute ago, Auroxis said:

Yes, but it does stack with Annihilation and Fury of the Gladiator.

And all are limited to 1 stack, maximum number of stacks in a target will always be 1 of each.

[Auroxis]

4 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

 

That being said: it is a whole different ball game to have defender/corruptors doing -res debuffing, it is their role and not every single one of them does it, it's a set by set design thing, not a universal trait.

 

That's fine, but I'm referring to the assertion of all-tanker teams being gamebreaking. You can get -160% res from a single Defender and then fill the rest of the team with damage, a kinetic, a 2nd buff/debuffer and a tank. That's way more "gamebreaking" and is also a very common team composition.

[Captain Powerhouse]

That is the defender/corruptor job, though. They pay for it with trully anemic base damage and survivability stats.

[Myrmidon]

12 hours ago, Lord_Cyclone91 said:

Oh my, you just wrote what's been my experience and my mindset for so long.  When I came back to Homecoming, I ended up rolling seven brutes and only 1 tank, because the damage is anemic on the tanks. 

 

This is going to be great for us, those of us who love tanks and felt the AT was left behind and rendered obsolete in the world of "Everyone is a god" and "We don't need a tank - everyone is a tank now." 

 

I play brutes too, so I appreciate those brute players who who love having the OP tank class in the end game.  If they honestly feel like they are getting their toes stepped on now that tanks can do decent damage, well I say "welcome to the tanker's world" after years of brutes being just as good at tanking and twice as good in terms of damage. Tanks just became relevant again, so it's a welcome change. 

 

I used to tell my friends that if the game started from scratch (in I23), that I would likely have not even played a Tanker with Brutes available to both sides. 

 

My count:

Brutes - 8

Tankers - 1 (Solely to attend Tanker Tuesday)

 

I would say that I kept my word, however, these changes actually make me very interested in my favorite AT again and I can’t wait to see how all of this turns out.❤️

Edited September 20, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Auroxis]

Just now, Captain Powerhouse said:

That is the defender/corruptor job, though. They pay for it with trully anemic base damage and survivability stats.

Well yes, I'm not suggesting we give Tankers a Defender's level of -res. Just keep the levels of -res we have and make it stackable from multiple casters.

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Auroxis said:

I didn't say you have to take procs, but that you can use them to beef up your damage and help bridge the gap between the classes. TW and SS definitely don't need procs to perform well overall.

 

You might not care about losing a -20% resistance debuff in favor of a damage buff, but the feature has been in the game for a while and players have grown accustomed to it. I also personally prefer it since it contributes more overall damage in an AV fight. There's no need to reduce the Tanker's AV fight contribution even further just to make it even better in AoE since the radius/arc/target cap changes have proven to be very strong regardless of the damage increase.

 

After testing, Handclap is getting procced with as many damage procs (after KB-KD) as can fit in it when I finally roll a SS anything.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Nerf Brute instead?

I will not do that.

 

 

I love this Guy!❤️

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, DreadShinobi said:

Will other archetypes that are suffering from the same damage cap as tankers be addressed including kheldians, arachnos ATs, dominators, and defenders? 

Let’s get  through the Tanker changes so that the Captain can then take a look at the other ATs that you’ve mentioned.

[Rylas]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Why the 550% (actual number for the next patch after revisions)?

First, a secondary tank brings little to the team other than more damage, and as a DPS, the tanker is the most sub-optimal choice to any team that wants more damage.

As it stands, Burtes have the same resist/defense caps as tankers, even with SOs, if they get the correct team mates, they can achieve 90% the survivability of a tanker. The 550% allows tankers to get to 90% the damage output as a capped Brute.

Wow, that's a great point about secondary tankers I hadn't even stopped to consider. Not that I needed any convincing to have their damage cap increased.

[Haijinx]

49 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Let’s get  through the Tanker changes so that the Captain can then take a look at the other ATs that you’ve mentioned.

Nu, lets just keep throwing up unrelated chafe so that no improvement ever happens.  

 

I fear change.

[Trogan707]

6 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 others who simply don't roll tanks because of the anemic damage

If you care so much about damage, why roll a tank? I just dont get it at all...

 

Whatever these changes end up being, if they allow someone to be a "tank" ...and herd / crowd control via aggro, be more of a support /team role...then it wil be a success. If they turn tank into yet another AOE farmer / dps class then it will be a failure.  I see this as jumping on a unicycle and complaining it doesnt have a second wheel....

Edited September 19, 2019 by Trogan707

[Mr. Igneous]

Before the target and aggro caps were nerfed in the live game, tanks were the backbone of a team, we would hardly ever form teams with multiple tanks, except on Tanker Tuesdays.  You just don't need 2 tanks when one can aggro an entire map solo!  Sometimes we would take a backup tank if it was fire/fire to nuke the herd with uncapped burn and other AoEs etc...the team would keep the tanks fully buffed and uncapped AoE was a beautiful thing to see.  

 

Herding was epic to watch.  Too bad many people did not want to sit and watch tanks herd a map, and have everyone nuke it all at once.  Sure was efficient though!  Drek mission map was so fun to herd up!!  Ah...the days that will never return....so sad.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Trogan707 said:

If you care so much about damage, why roll a tank? I just dont get it at all...

 

Whatever these changes end up being, if they allow someone to be a "tank" ...and herd / crowd control via aggro, be more of a support /team role...then it wil be a success. If they turn tank into yet another AOE farmer / dps class then it will be a failure.  I see this as jumping on a unicycle and complaining it doesnt have a second wheel....

Isn't this sort of like saying "I don't get it.  You have Fire Control.  Why would you need to /kin?"

 

You have a primary and a secondary.  As long as damage is secondary to tanking, and does not displace other ATs, it is a success.

 

I don't understand why people would be against changes that allow people to care about half of their powers.

[metacore]

LOTS of comments and good feedback.
Honestly I haven't read all 38 pages so maybe some of my below suggestions have been pre-argued but with that out the way (NOTE: all numbers are subject to change based on actual calculations :)):

Bruising with the following
- All ST attacks (inc ranged Tank ST attacks like Focused Burst, Impale, etc) apply a non-stacking (from the same Tank) Bruising effect of -15% Res for 10s. This allows for those Tanks that want to can ignore the T1. All Tank secondaries have at least 3 ST attacks.
- Multiple Tanks apply a stacking but reduced additional Bruising of -5% Res up to 4 more Tanks (half a potential all Tank team). In this unlikely scenario of 4 Tanks there is up to a -35% Res on a Single Target. This gives a reason for a Tank and reason for multiple Tanks. This limited stacking is similar to those Aura powers like Rise to the Challenge where the first target provides a large buff but additional targets provide a lower buff.

 

Endurance
Inc Base Endurance to 120. Stay fighting for longer while others need to 'take a breath' 🙂

The Tank stays standing and engaging the enemy while the 'punchies' and 'throwies' get tired.
 

Gauntlet changes keep them
 - NOTE: does this mean that Taunt enh can no longer be slotted in attacks?

Possible QoL improvement could include something akin to the Defender Inherent where when solo the Tanker does more damage but when having teammates this reduces. For example:
Solo = 1.0
1-2 Team = 0.9
3+ Team = 0.8
(Again numbers just for Proof of Concept)

AoE/Taunt changes keep them

Increase AoE as stated - include the new ranges in the Power details.
Increase Taunt as stated

Damage changes:
Increase Tank Ranged damage mod to 0.8

Leave Tank Melee damage modifier as 0.8 (or up it to 0.85)
Leave Tank Damage cap at 400%
- These two can be reviewed for additional changes after the others have been implemented

[ParagonKid]

Here's what I'd personally like to see:

Leave melee damage modifer as Live.

A new effect added to all tanker attacks; Rend: 10% resistance debuff.
Bruising: reduced to 10%, stacks with Rend.

Reduce/remove the proposed Base Endurance increase if need be.

Everything else, I'm OK with.

Tankers get a little more AoE oomph, they bring a crowd debuff for teaming and they don't lose any ST damage.

[Haijinx]

I'm a little confused.  Are you all saying that conceptually a tanker normally doing 75% as much damage as a scrapper, and a maximum (with hella buffs) of 90% as much damage as a Brute is a problem? 

 

How much damage conceptually do y'all think they should do?

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

Keep in mind the brutes will hit the max cap much easier.

 

Most the time the Tanker will be 75%-80% or so of a brute.