Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[golstat2003]

19 minutes ago, Profit said:

@NoyjitatHere is my damage coming off the rock to tank hami tonight. This is with Single Rage and a LEAGUE worth of buffs on me...

 

 

There is no way your going to hit this cap.

Thanks for screenshotting and describing some sanity into this discussion! Lordy!

[Redlynne]

On 9/10/2019 at 6:30 PM, Leandro said:

• Tanker base endurance has been increased to 120, to reflect the fact that they kill slower, but last longer in combat.

On 9/13/2019 at 2:47 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Leveling up, the tanker can take a lot longer to kill things than the equivalent scrapper, but they burn endurance at the exact same rate. That is where the +max endurance comes into play, it's meant to let them continue a fight longer before their end is so low they can only use their T1/T2 or eat a blue pill.

Um ... if that's the problem ... why are you increasing the base endurance?

Why aren't you just reducing the endurance costs of all Tanker Secondary attack powers across the board?

I mean, if the balance point you're chasing is doing 75% of the throughput of a Scrapper, shouldn't the powers be costing a Tanker 75% of the endurance that a Scrapper has to pay to use those same powers?  Wouldn't that be a better balance point to chase than simply increasing base endurance by +20% (and all of the knock on effects that has for endurance recovery)?

 

[Redlynne]

30 minutes ago, Vanden said:

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Cottage Rule

That doesn't describe what's happening in the T1/T2 swap. The only set that could possibly be a cottage rule violation for is Titan Weapons, and it's exempt from the change.

You say that changing the ordering of which powers can be acquired when does not break well established precedent.

I say it does.

 

Your move.

[Vanden]

Just now, Redlynne said:

You say that changing the ordering of which powers can be acquired when does not break well established precedent.

I say it does.

 

Your move.

The powers are the same. They're just in different orders. How has the core functionality of the powers been altered?

[Redlynne]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

The powers are the same. They're just in different orders. How has the core functionality of the powers been altered?

Now you're just being (deliberately?) obtuse.

 

 

The order that the powers can be taken is ... and I quote myself ... A WELL ESTABLISHED PRECEDENT ... unquote.

Overturning a well established precedent like that violates the spirit of the Cottage Rule as established by the Cryptic/Paragon Studios Devs (Castle in particular).

 

If your response to that is a shrug and a "so what?" then there is nothing to be gained by trying to educate you on how you have entirely missed the point (and the forest for the trees?).

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

Increasing the damage bonus cap to 600% is a dramatic change. There's now way to sugar coat or skirt around that.... The tank will now be dps + highest defenses, an entirely different at than it once was.

 

The cap is dropping to 575% in the next patch.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

Now you're just being (deliberately?) obtuse.

 

 

The order that the powers can be taken is ... and I quote myself ... A WELL ESTABLISHED PRECEDENT ... unquote.

Overturning a well established precedent like that violates the spirit of the Cottage Rule as established by the Cryptic/Paragon Studios Devs (Castle in particular).

 

If your response to that is a shrug and a "so what?" then there is nothing to be gained by trying to educate you on how you have entirely missed the point (and the forest for the trees?).

Changing power orders has been done in the past to improve sets. It was done on before the shutdown to the War Mace power set. 

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

I *could* overturn it, in specific cases, if it were truly needed

 

This is also part of that precious “Cottage Rule” that people keep bringing up. Captain Powerhouse has clearly chosen this option.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Two things, because the last few pages of this have been an unfruitful read of back and forth repetition with very few posts going out of that pattern:

@redlynne, the person that created the cottage rule also changed the order of powers. That should be clear enough note that changing the order of powers is not a cottage rule infraction.

 

That being told, the T1/T2 order change will be still reverted in the next patch. Some other power reorders will remain, though, but Fault will also go back to level 20.

 

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Um ... if that's the problem ... why are you increasing the base endurance?

Why aren't you just reducing the endurance costs of all Tanker Secondary attack powers across the board?

I mean, if the balance point you're chasing is doing 75% of the throughput of a Scrapper, shouldn't the powers be costing a Tanker 75% of the endurance that a Scrapper has to pay to use those same powers?  Wouldn't that be a better balance point to chase than simply increasing base endurance by +20% (and all of the knock on effects that has for endurance recovery)?

 

 

When you take longer to take down a foe, it's not just your offensive set eating away at your endurance. It's also your defensive toggles, any epic power you use, and any endurance drain tossed at you, in addition to any regeneration or healing the enemy might have extending the fight even longer than the lower damage would predict based on dps differences alone.

 

Just because a tanker might have 75% the damage of a scrapper does not mean the scrapper kills things 75% the speed. That extra time might extend things much further. Against some foes, it might mean the difference between even out-damaging the enemy regeneration at all. That being said, there is a reason this is testing. The exact amount of the Max End increase is still under evaluation and might change.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Myrmidon]

47 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Changing power orders has been done in the past to improve sets. It was done on before the shutdown to the War Mace power set. 

 

 

Vanden, I don’t know about you, but, to me that sounds like  ... A WELL ESTABLISHED PRECEDENT ...

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That being told, the T1/T2 order change will be still reverted in the next patch.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Sorry, but there are many reasons for that, and before there is any accusations, although feedback was a factor on the consideration, it was not the main reason. The nature of forced T1s will be reviewed in the future, for all archetypes, no timeline on that, but for the time being it will have to wait.

 

The changes to Battle Axe, Martial Arts, and War Mace AoE power order is still going ahead, and Stone melee will have Tremor at 28, with Hurl going to 35.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Replacement]

15 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That being told, the T1/T2 order change will be still reverted in the next patch. Some other power reorders will remain, though, but Fault will also go back to level 20.

Bummed and relieved about this. I'll need some time in a dark room to contemplate further.

 

While we're looking towards the next patch, just how hard is it to adjust AT scales? I would love to see the damage dropped to .9, with a buff to secondary effects and party scales. 

 

This is an extension of what I've said throughout this entire thread: if we trust a little extra damage doesn't turn them into a dps job, then we also have to trust that slightly higher utility in their Leadership or carrier debuffs won't up and make them a Support.

[Captain Powerhouse]

I have no current plans to lower the damage scale, do keep in mind the .95 damage scale is only for melee attacks. All epic and pool power ranged attacks are now using the buffed ranged modifier, meaning they don't get an increase in damage, a big reason why most quick modifier comparisons between brute damage and tankers will not translate to in-game experiences. Fire Ball, Gloom, Ball Lightning all those powers are not getting a buff and will continue to operate at a 0.8 damage scale.

[Myrmidon]

22 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The nature of forced T1s will be reviewed in the future, for all archetypes, no timeline on that, but for the time being it will have to wait.

 

Excellent.

Thank you, Captain.

[Vanden]

23 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The nature of forced T1s will be reviewed in the future, for all archetypes, no timeline on that,

Could you elaborate on what this means? Do you mean simply allowing a choice of T1 or T2 for the secondary, or something else?

[Captain Powerhouse]

There is no solid plan at the time, but you will continue to have to take the T1 at character creation, that is unlikely to ever change.

[Replacement]

One more thing, @Captain Powerhouse:

 

Thank you for all your hard work!

[Heraclea]

14 hours ago, Auroxis said:

Your Inv/DM is probably the least impacted by these changes, no damage aura or AoE's besides Soul Drain and Shadow Maul. Does your build have Cross Punch? I haven't tested it with the new patch yet and it should be pretty good.

 

I tried Bio/Staff on some +4 carnies. The AoE is massive, fairly fast at clearing the packs (unless i get darkest night spammed which floors my ToHit) but in a 1v1 boss fight it's about as slow as it was before. I also wanted to pylon test it, but since the pylons are level 54 now i can't compare my results with anything.

I need to make a similarly tricked out version of my Bio/Spines. 

[Vanden]

Even if the T1/T2 switch isn't happening generally, could we at least still do it for Super Strength? Jab is a truly terrible attack, and being forced to take it is just awful. Super Strength wouldn't be the only set with a stronger T1 than T2; Katana and Broadsword are both set up like that too.

[Auroxis]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Even if the T1/T2 switch isn't happening generally, could we at least still do it for Super Strength? Jab is a truly terrible attack, and being forced to take it is just awful. Super Strength wouldn't be the only set with a stronger T1 than T2; Katana and Broadsword are both set up like that too.

If Bruising is returning then Jab isn't much worse than Punch since you just want a fast attack to apply it.

 

Also, sometimes fast attacks with lower DPA are actually better than slower attacks with higher DPA, if you have other much higher DPA attacks you wanna get to (KoB, Haymaker, Cross Punch) and a slower animation filler doesn't quite fit.

[Mr. Igneous]

5 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

...That being told, the T1/T2 order change will be still reverted in the next patch. ...

Ah...great...Thank you!!  Good news for Stone tanks.  The swap would have been fine if the T2 power was changed to the T1 recharge time when it was moved to the T1 spot.

 

Later,

 

Mr. Igneous

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

If Bruising is returning then Jab isn't much worse than Punch since you just want a fast attack to apply it.

It doesn't sound like Bruising is returning.

[Mr. Igneous]

18 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Even if the T1/T2 switch isn't happening generally, could we at least still do it for Super Strength? Jab is a truly terrible attack, and being forced to take it is just awful. Super Strength wouldn't be the only set with a stronger T1 than T2; Katana and Broadsword are both set up like that too.

Really Vanden? After all the grief you were giving me about not wanting the switch because T2 Ice Sword is worse than T1 Frozen Fists in my Stone tank build. 

 

Should I now have you do the math, then make a mistake, redo the math, then try to explain yourself?  Then I can dismiss you and marginalize your build as a sub-par subset of tanks and therefore unworthy of anyone listening to your feedback.

 

This is what you put me through.  Sound like fun?

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Really Vanden? After all the grief you were giving me about not wanting the switch because T2 Ice Sword is worse than T1 Frozen Fists in my Stone tank build. 

 

Should I now have you do the math, then make a mistake, redo the math, then try to explain yourself?  Then I can dismiss you and marginalize your build as a sub-par subset of tanks and therefore unworthy of anyone listening to your feedback.

 

This is what you put me through.  Sound like fun?

If it makes you feel better, sure.