Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Replacement]

Neat.  I think I just got temp-banned from this thread.

 

Am I right to assume +Cone arc applies even to the longer Epic cones, like the 60' in Shark Attack Mastery?

 

I'm trying to think -- are there any aoes that are 10' or smaller that are not pbaoe I could test out?  

 

Also, small note: the OP still has +100% size.  Probably other old details as well.  Don't think it's causing much confusion but i figured i should mention it.

[Captain Powerhouse]

No temp bans, just clicked the wrong button on the mod settings.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Replacement said:

 

Am I right to assume +Cone arc applies even to the longer Epic cones, like the 60' in Shark Attack Mastery?

 

At this time, +Arc applies to Epic cones. Same goes for +Radius and Epic Sphere attacks. This is still all subject to change, of course.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Replacement]

Nice.

 

If anyone cares, the +aoe should apply to Speed's Whirlwind as well.

 

I'm sure the 4 tankers built in the last 20 years that took that power care?

[Auroxis]

OK so either something's wrong with my earlier tests (i'm suspecting there's a bug in offensive adaptation since i had to re-toggle it last time to get -13.33% instead of -10% on the pylon) or Bio/TW tanker's just a bit too strong.

 

First two pylons:

2:21

2:11 (less mistakes)

 

Then tried a chain with defensive sweep and got 2:21.

 

This indicates there's something wrong with the previous test somewhere since it should have been closer to 2:40, seeing as my Justin numbers were 3:13. It could also be due to the nature of Pylon tests that use health ticks to measure DPS, so it's possible that the Justin tests were just short of a tick somewhere.

 

For the fun of it I went for a run with Radial Assault Hybrid toggled on, and got 1:51. Had another run with Assault Core Toggled, and got 1:34.

 

New build, with Melt Armor:

 

Hybrid toggled off

1:50

1:42

 

Hybrid toggled on

1:27
1:26

Edited September 23, 2019 by Auroxis

[Sir Myshkin]

11 hours ago, Auroxis said:

I think that proccing out RM does way more to help your DPS against a Pylon than these changes (which negatively impact proc builds). RM's top time is 1:47 on Scrapper so reaching 3:20 minutes on Tanker shouldn't come as a complete surprise.

Except for the fact that I explicitly tested the same build both pre and post Tank alterations. In the pre-state I used Contaminated with Bruising, and in the Post state Radioactive Smash. Now in the pre-state Incarnates (primarily looking at Alpha and Interface) had been shut off from instant-access so my time there was 10:30 without those. Post-change, achieving 3:20--even with Incarnates added into the mix--is still a significant deviation. While Bruising definitely imparted benefit to the Procs themselves, changes to the base modifier while using things like AAO and Assault (especially now) are going to easily eclipse that loss.

 

5 hours ago, Sylar said:

try doing that with super strength, the set has been nerfed and will not clear it in the same time i guarantee you, that is the issue i have with the changes.

I'll get there eventually, don't worry. I think you'll be surprised what it can still do.

[Sylar]

2 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Except for the fact that I explicitly tested the same build both pre and post Tank alterations. In the pre-state I used Contaminated with Bruising, and in the Post state Radioactive Smash. Now in the pre-state Incarnates (primarily looking at Alpha and Interface) had been shut off from instant-access so my time there was 10:30 without those. Post-change, achieving 3:20--even with Incarnates added into the mix--is still a significant deviation. While Bruising definitely imparted benefit to the Procs themselves, changes to the base modifier while using things like AAO and Assault (especially now) are going to easily eclipse that loss.

 

I'll get there eventually, don't worry. I think you'll be surprised what it can still do.

yeah i will definitely test out when i can the changes, i am excited, hoping that energy melee gets some love too, it needs it, one of my favourite sets, as is super strength 😛

[Auroxis]

@Captain Powerhouse

 

Since I'm posting Brute pylon times for Tankers(while having more -res):

 

 

I think there's solid evidence for reducing the damage cap further at the very least.

 

And I clearly underestimated Melt Armor, its 40s duration gives it a big advantage over Arctic Breath in terms of not interrupting your attack chain. So if you keep things as they are the Class's contribution in AV fights would be about the same as before, but only if the player picks up some extra powers in Assault and Melt Armor.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Auroxis

[Haijinx]

Pylon times are kind of like COH godwin

 

 

[Auroxis]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Pylon times are kind of like COH godwin

 

 

Melt Armor clearly gave me around a 10% better time, which means the "Tankers deal 90% of the damage of brutes at 550%" statement inaccurate since you're not taking the extra -res (from both the tanker's -res powers and melt armor) into account as well as not taking Assault's team buff into account.

 

Please try to appreciate the actual tests I'm running before dismissing the time I invested as some godwin to win fake internet arguments.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Auroxis said:

Melt Armor clearly gave me around a 10% better time, which means the "Tankers deal 90% of the damage of brutes at 550%" statement inaccurate since you're not taking the extra -res (from both the tanker's -res powers and melt armor) into account as well as not taking Assault's team buff into account.

 

Please try to appreciate the actual tests I'm running before dismissing the time I invested as some godwin to win fake internet arguments.

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but what tests are you running? You linked to a two-month old post written by someone else.

[Myrmidon]

4 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Melt Armor clearly gave me around a 10% better time, which means the "Tankers deal 90% of the damage of brutes at 550%" statement inaccurate since you're not taking the extra -res (from both the tanker's -res powers and melt armor) into account as well as not taking Assault's team buff into account.

 

Shouldn’t the baseline damage cap be the balancing factor and not additional performance from power pools that not everyone chooses? 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Auroxis]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but what tests are you running? You linked to a two-month old post written by someone else.

I linked the highest posted TW/Bio Brute time which has almost identical numbers to the Melt Armor time I posted.

 

And I'm not even that good with TW.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Auroxis

[Auroxis]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Shouldn’t the baseline damage cap be the balancing factor and not additional performance from power pools that not everyone chooses? 

Since you can't reach the damage cap yourself external factors are already in play, and since Brutes can't get similar -res numbers it is definitely relevant.

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Melt Armor clearly gave me around a 10% better time, which means the "Tankers deal 90% of the damage of brutes at 550%" statement inaccurate since you're not taking the extra -res (from both the tanker's -res powers and melt armor) into account as well as not taking Assault's team buff into account.

That doesn't sound like something that should be taken into account, since it's not something that affects the AT as a whole, it's a few powers that not everyone will take.

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

 

 

Please try to appreciate the actual tests I'm running before dismissing the time I invested as some godwin to win fake internet arguments.

Are you trying to suggest that when pylon times start getting thrown around, the conversations do not get bogged down into technical minutia and or massive hyperbole?

 

 

 

 

[Replacement]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Are you trying to suggest that when pylon times start getting thrown around, the conversations do not get bogged down into technical minutia and or massive hyperbole?

Data is data.  Let me know if it gets down to +/-10 seconds.  At that point, yeah, the minutiae is too high.  But if the difference is obvious and far above random deviation, it has value.

 

I'm not ready to say I agree with the conclusion, but I don't think it's wise to discount any testing.

[Auroxis]

19 minutes ago, Vanden said:

That doesn't sound like something that should be taken into account, since it's not something that affects the AT as a whole, it's a few powers that not everyone will take.

I'm currently posting pylon times, which means the Tanker's 550% damage cap isn't part of the equation and I'm still matching the top Brute times. If you remove Melt Armor+Assault and put both classes at their respective damage caps, the difference (or lack thereof) would remain about the same since you're replacing one dps buff with another.

 

If you put both classes at the damage cap and keep the melt armor+assault advantage, my tanker would overtake the top brute which even if you assume i play/build the combo better is too much.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Auroxis

[Haijinx]

Just now, Replacement said:

Data is data.  Let me know if it gets down to +/-10 seconds.  At that point, yeah, the minutiae is too high.  But if the difference is obvious and far above random deviation, it has value.

 

I'm not ready to say I agree with the conclusion, but I don't think it's wise to discount any testing.

Im not discounting the testing.  Im saying the conversations tend to devolve.

 

And i don't mean minutia of results .. but of methodology.  

 

Its already happening.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Auroxis said:

I'm currently posting pylon times, which means the Tanker's 550% damage cap isn't part of the equation and I'm still matching the top Brute times. If you remove Melt Armor+Assault and put both classes at their respective damage caps, their damage would be about the same since you're replacing one dps buff with another.

 

If you put both classes at the damage cap and keep the melt armor+assault advantage, my tanker would overtake the top brute which even if you assume i play the class better is too much.

Well, Assault would do nothing, since you'd be at the damage cap. But that aside, the Tanker is doing more damage in this one situation that we know doesn't accurately represent actual gameplay, and it wouldn't even be a permanent thing, considering the cooldown on APP Melt Armor.

[Leogunner]

23 minutes ago, Vanden said:

That doesn't sound like something that should be taken into account, since it's not something that affects the AT as a whole, it's a few powers that not everyone will take.

Considering that some of the changes directly affect those few powers (-res powers, +damage powers) I don't think it should be something to dismiss.

[Auroxis]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Well, Assault would do nothing, since you'd be at the damage cap. But that aside, the Tanker is doing more damage in this one situation that we know doesn't accurately represent actual gameplay, and it wouldn't even be a permanent thing, considering the cooldown on APP Melt Armor.

Yes actual gameplay isnt just long drawn-out fights against single targets, it's also AoE where Tankers got a buff.

 

And yes melt armor won't be up permanently but neither was it on my tests.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Auroxis

[Myrmidon]

2 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Yes actual gameplay isnt just long drawn-out fights against single targets, it's also AoE where Tankers got a buff.

 

And yes melt armor won't be up permanently but neither was it on my tests.

 

Have you also tested Brutes using their power pool powers?

[Auroxis]

2 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Have you also tested Brutes using their power pool powers?

No, but the numbers are high even within the margin of error because the damage cap isn't in play for pylon tests.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Auroxis

[Vanden]

8 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Yes actual gameplay isnt just long drawn-out fights against single targets, it's also AoE where Tankers got a buff.

 

And yes melt armor won't be up permanently but neither was it on my tests.

It won't just be non-permanent, it won't even be on the majority of enemies you fight. Almost nothing is actually going to take the full 40 seconds that Melt Armor lasts to defeat, except EBs, AVs, and maybe particularly sturdy bosses, even without Melt Armor. You'll drop the mobs and move on to the next group which Melt Armor won't be up for, and it probably won't be up for the group after that, either.

[Leogunner]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It won't just be non-permanent, it won't even be on the majority of enemies you fight. Almost nothing is actually going to take the full 40 seconds that Melt Armor lasts to defeat, except EBs, AVs, and maybe particularly sturdy bosses, even without Melt Armor. You'll drop the mobs and move on to the next group which Melt Armor won't be up for, and it probably won't be up for the group after that, either.

Rather than try to conjure a scenario that invalidates Auroxis' data, how about considering scenarios that can exploit these data points even further than Auroxis or others ever thought about?