Please uncap Hami zones again....

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Profit said:

No it's not hazy at all. We have the ability to make our characters as customizable as possible. If someone wants to be impervious to fire they can. And that's awesome, right up until they try to do a stf on that finely tuned farmer. They get their butts handed to them. 

 

And for what it's worth, I can have a Hami, stf, lrsf, done in roughly 45 mins. Flood the market with 3 hamis and never mind the inf gained from destroying all those mobs. Also known as farming. Just not in the AE. But I guess that's an exploit to? Maybe I'll just run Harvey's demon map and remain impervious to fire. Also farming. 

 

So no, your arguments don't hold water because if someone wants to solo, I've lost a potential teammate. Roleplayers hanging out in PD all day long? same thing. Base builders? No they can't leave their base to team and that is making people miss out on those perfectly designed bases because time doing content is not time spent building.

 

it sounds like you, and lots of other people still have issues with live pricing. Do you know why prices were that way? No market from the beginning. People had tens of billions of inf when the market showed up and it's not that way now.

 

So no, it's not an exploit. What you need to do is ignore it, because it really doesn't effect you. Converters are everywhere, ATOs cost 10 million from readily seeded superpacks. You can get any io you want within 10 conversions from just drops. Need a Hami? Go fricken Hami. But lay off the farmers because the situation now is nothing like it was before economy wise. And your heartfelt arguments don't change that.

It's been 4 months. And people -already- have Tens of Billions of Inf spread across multiple characters. 

 

Any economic system that contains the endless growth of wealth is going to deal with inflation. Any economic system where people can add 100,000,000 of the currency to it in under an hour? Barring some significant inf sinks, and AH prices aren't gonna be enough to do it, or the devs/admins/curators seeding the market, constantly, with low-priced goods to keep the Marketeers from having their unrestrained fun: we're gonna wind up in the same place.

 

Almost feel bad for the Marketeers, now. They're stymied by the admin's actions and decisions while the farmers aren't.

[Foxfyre]

14 minutes ago, Profit said:

it sounds like you, and lots of other people still have issues with live pricing. Do you know why prices were that way? No market from the beginning. People had tens of billions of inf when the market showed up and it's not that way now.

This^^^^^

I'm still absolutely amazed at how CHEAP everything is on homecoming now.

I remember when a full set of IO's could cost you over 100 mil.  Now it's about 25 mil tops, and that's for the REALLY good ones. (Standard sets, not purps/ATO/Winters)

I remember when a full build could easily cost you 2 billion influence.

I just built a toon completely out the other day and including buying salvage for crafting I only dropped about 250 million.

There's 2 reasons everything is so cheap now.  The first is that we started fresh, WITH an economy from the beginning.  CoH didn't have an economy till about Issue 10 originally.  So you had tons of 50's with maxed out wallets and plenty of influence to burn.....so everything went for ridiculous prices. 

The second reason is farmers.  Thanks to them loading up the AH with drops, it drives prices down.  (Basic economics: more supply = less demand = lower prices)

[Foxfyre]

7 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Barring some significant inf sinks, and AH prices aren't gonna be enough to do it, or the devs/admins/curators seeding the market, constantly, with low-priced goods to keep the Marketeers from having their unrestrained fun: we're gonna wind up in the same place.

We have influence sinks.

Have you looked at the prices of Tier 3 and 4 incarnates?

There's also the Super Packs on the market.  I think you underestimate how much money is being taken back out of the economy on those Super Packs.

[MunkiLord]

As someone that does fire farm, I agree it's an exploit. But I don't think all exploits are automatically bad, and I think that is where a lot of the disagreement comes from here. People associate the term exploit with being bad, wrong, and/or immoral. 

 

I disagree with marketeers being stymied at all. I've just had to change my tactics. I made a couple billion on the market last week. It's still an incredibly more efficient use of in game time to make influence compared to farming. 

[Profit]

19 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It's been 4 months. And people -already- have Tens of Billions of Inf spread across multiple characters. 

 

Any economic system that contains the endless growth of wealth is going to deal with inflation. Any economic system where people can add 100,000,000 of the currency to it in under an hour? Barring some significant inf sinks, and AH prices aren't gonna be enough to do it, or the devs/admins/curators seeding the market, constantly, with low-priced goods to keep the Marketeers from having their unrestrained fun: we're gonna wind up in the same place.

 

Almost feel bad for the Marketeers, now. They're stymied by the admin's actions and decisions while the farmers aren't.

Trust the farmers. Like foxy said, they keep supply high which helps keep prices down. The farmers trust you to run content when they look for content (you being the populace you, not the you I quoted) so trust them to do what needs to be done. And the marketeers aren't specifically the farmers remember. Farmers tend to just dump whatever out there they don't all marketeer. So trust the farmers, because every part of this ecosystem is just as important as the other parts.

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

We have influence sinks.

Have you looked at the prices of Tier 3 and 4 incarnates?

There's also the Super Packs on the market.  I think you underestimate how much money is being taken back out of the economy on those Super Packs.

I've got two Incarnates... One is Tier 4 everything. But I'm not going to be spending inf getting Tier 4 of all the other types for each slot because I don't need them. My PB with Musculature isn't going to be grabbing Cardiac or Intuition 'cause they're not relevant to her. She's only got the one Alpha Slot, after all.

 

So while that's a nice influence sink a few times... it's not significant. It's not going to be a consistent thing where my Incarnated Characters are going to keep spending the influence I'm generating with those incarnates. And I could generate inf with those incarnates for the remainder of the duration of CoH.

 

Even marketing stuff? Only a -fraction- of the endlessly generating wealth gets taken out of the system. We need emotes, costume pieces, costume slots, special Base Items, or even White Elephants if we're going to be serious about having any kind of economy. Maybe even taxes or something. 

 

Heh... That could be kind of awesome. Have there be "Vote Vendors" in-game to let you spend inf to vote on new Powersets or Costumes or whatever. Sure the farmers and marketeers would get a bigger vote percentage, but it'd be one hell of an influence sink!

[GM Sijin]

This topic has veered a little too hard. There's far too much talk about markets, economies and exploits and far too little talk about whether or not the zone limit of 50 is appropriate for the raid zones.

 

Incarnates and IOs have already trivialized raids at their intended player targets of a single league, I personally see no need to trivialize them further by allowing four times the players. As much fun as more rewards for less effort is.

[Razor Cure]

13 hours ago, swordchucks said:

Should we break out the torches and pitchforks because you're breaking the economy by almost rivaling something that hundreds of people are doing constantly?

Yes. Please? I mean..HOW else can you make 100mil in an hour, aside from fire farming? Maybe a +4 ITF that was steamrolling, but even then you have travel, in mission movement, nasty bosses and ebs.

If Hami was never intended to be zerged by 3 leagues at once ( and yeah, I dont think it was), and making 100mil an hour wasn't either..

[Razor Cure]

8 hours ago, Foxfyre said:

I just built a toon completely out the other day and including buying salvage for crafting I only dropped about 250 million.

Only 250?! Only. I built my psi/ea stalker a few days ago. I spent..wait for it. 5 Mil. And most of that was crafting lvl 50 basic end/rech IOs. EVERYTHING else, bar a few Hami Goos, I got from recipes my other alts had, or got some other recipes for dirty cheap, and converted them.

 

Also, sorry GM Sijin. I replied from teh first page and hadn't seen your above post.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Razor Cure

[swordchucks]

Two days in to the capped zones and my opinions have refined a bit.

 

Hami is fine with the cap.  I play on Everlasting and, in my experience, we weren't seeing the same kind of Hami-abuse that was apparently common on other servers, which is why this was a bit jarring.  I think there's a lot of room for improvement (since having both a limited population and no tools for actually controlling that population sucks), but it's livable assuming you're willing to show up an hour hour early or wait an extra half-hour.  However, as a limiting factor on the abuse, it's fine.

 

MSR is the one that's suffering more.  The difficulty between the capped MSR and the un-capped MSR don't seem markedly different, nor do the rewards (though never kept that close a watch on Vanguad merits per run so I can't say for sure).  The additional traffic in zone makes it awkward and difficult when someone DCs or otherwise gets knocked out of the zone and having only two spots more than a full league in-zone isn't great for coordination. 

[Foxfyre]

6 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Only 250?! Only.

Again, as I mentioned.....back on live it could take 2 billion to complete a build.

[Foxfyre]

38 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

Hami is fine with the cap.  I play on Everlasting and, in my experience, we weren't seeing the same kind of Hami-abuse that was apparently common on other servers

Not sure if by "abuse" you mean griefing or you mean the Hamikaze.

But yes....on Excelsior we took full advantage of the Hamikaze.  3 Hami kills in 30ish minutes every night.  It was nice.

[Ironblade]

22 hours ago, swordchucks said:

I'm just saying that 400 merits in about an hour isn't hugely out of line with the long-established profit level of AE farming.  Someone more knowledgeable than I am can comment on the history of it, but my understanding is that AE profits have always been very high and are generally accepted.  Having an activity that could almost rival that isn't a burning house that has to be addressed right this second, which is how this was addressed.

So by "right this second", you mean the bug that has been in place since *MAY*.

 

And yes, 400 merits in an hour is completely broken.  The correct comparison is not AE farming.  The correct comparison is the stated time/reward rate where an average player/team will pull in about 1 merit per 3 minutes (or 3-1/2).

[Ironblade]

4 hours ago, swordchucks said:

MSR is the one that's suffering more.  The difficulty between the capped MSR and the un-capped MSR don't seem markedly different, nor do the rewards (though never kept that close a watch on Vanguad merits per run so I can't say for sure).  The additional traffic in zone makes it awkward and difficult when someone DCs or otherwise gets knocked out of the zone and having only two spots more than a full league in-zone isn't great for coordination. 

This is definitely an issue.  If it was a zone with no missions or task force, the cap might be fine.  But the RWZ is what it is so the cap needs to be higher.

[Apparition]

15 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

This is definitely an issue.  If it was a zone with no missions or task force, the cap might be fine.  But the RWZ is what it is so the cap needs to be higher.

 

It's being addressed.

[Ironblade]

Yeah, from the description that doesn't really seem like a great solution.

I guess I'll have to try it and see how it plays out.

[swordchucks]

47 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

So by "right this second", you mean the bug that has been in place since *MAY*.

Going off of something Leandro said on the Discord, he became aware of the bug on Saturday and had the patch in within just a few days.  That's what I mean by "right this second". 

 

I agree that it needed to be addressed for Hami.  I'm just not sure that it couldn't have been looked at a bit more before rushing the fix in.  The current path of making MSR (and presumably later Hami) into trials is better than what we have now, but also inferior to finding a way to allow the multi-league raids.

[Foxfyre]

14 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

Going off of something Leandro said on the Discord, he became aware of the bug on Saturday and had the patch in within just a few days.  That's what I mean by "right this second". 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that's not possible.  

For quite a few reasons.  

1.  The way news travels in this community.
2.  Cypher has been seen at the Excelsior Hami Raids.  GM Fiddleback as well.

3.  The Hami guide I wrote in these forums had the zerg/hamikaze method in it
4.  Literally any other number of posts in these forums/on their discord/on social media.

I'm sorry....but Leo would had to have literally been living under a rock not to know.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Foxfyre

[MunkiLord]

10 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Only 250?! Only. I built my psi/ea stalker a few days ago. I spent..wait for it. 5 Mil. And most of that was crafting lvl 50 basic end/rech IOs. EVERYTHING else, bar a few Hami Goos, I got from recipes my other alts had, or got some other recipes for dirty cheap, and converted them.

 

Also, sorry GM Sijin. I replied from teh first page and hadn't seen your above post.

I built my Spines/Fire Brute the other day and spent about 1.5 billion because I didn't want to wait on anything. I've almost made my influence back using just the market. Well I would have if I didn't add an extra zero to my bids on converters last night. Cost me about 300 million or so before I caught the mistake and was able to cancel the rest of the bids.

[swordchucks]

34 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that's not possible. 

Scan back in the #homecoming-feedback section.  That's what was said, and it is what I base my impression of the speed of the fix on. 

 

Yes, there were absolutely other GMs present at big Hamis and MSRs during the last few months.  I'm not going to speculate on what the disconnect there is.

[CodeJunkie]

On 9/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, swordchucks said:

In any case, I fell like the RWZ change is the one that makes the most sense to roll back without a lot of adjustment.  RWZ rewards were already pretty in line with other activities and having more people didn't really influence that.

Agree.

[EyeLuvBooks]

On 9/11/2019 at 1:10 PM, swordchucks said:

400 merits only has a general value of about 100mil inf.  That's less than fire farmer can make in an hour.  So... your efforts put your rewards almost as high as someone sitting in AE and killing fire mobs for an hour?  Should we break out the torches and pitchforks because you're breaking the economy by almost rivaling something that hundreds of people are doing constantly?

 

In any case, I fell like the RWZ change is the one that makes the most sense to roll back without a lot of adjustment.  RWZ rewards were already pretty in line with other activities and having more people didn't really influence that.

Careful...you're throwing around numbers without knowing that of which you speak.

 

Most players don't Farm for anything so using the rewards from a very small percentage of the population as your metric is useless.

 

If 400 merits/100 million Inf is worth so little let's just give EVERY toon that much right now. Why not? It's just a pittance...right?

 

See where this goes?

[EyeLuvBooks]

7 hours ago, swordchucks said:

Two days in to the capped zones and my opinions have refined a bit.

 

Hami is fine with the cap.  I play on Everlasting and, in my experience, we weren't seeing the same kind of Hami-abuse that was apparently common on other servers, which is why this was a bit jarring.  I think there's a lot of room for improvement (since having both a limited population and no tools for actually controlling that population sucks), but it's livable assuming you're willing to show up an hour hour early or wait an extra half-hour.  However, as a limiting factor on the abuse, it's fine.

 

MSR is the one that's suffering more.  The difficulty between the capped MSR and the un-capped MSR don't seem markedly different, nor do the rewards (though never kept that close a watch on Vanguad merits per run so I can't say for sure).  The additional traffic in zone makes it awkward and difficult when someone DCs or otherwise gets knocked out of the zone and having only two spots more than a full league in-zone isn't great for coordination. 

This is why I advocated for a cap of 60 in the RWZ. 60 isn't enough to start a second League for Hami but it sure would make it easier to get 48 in for a MSR

[Foxfyre]

14 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Only 250?! Only. I built my psi/ea stalker a few days ago. I spent..wait for it. 5 Mil. And most of that was crafting lvl 50 basic end/rech IOs. EVERYTHING else, bar a few Hami Goos, I got from recipes my other alts had, or got some other recipes for dirty cheap, and converted them.

 

Also, sorry GM Sijin. I replied from teh first page and hadn't seen your above post.

A level 50 recipe costs about 500k to craft.

If you dropped only 5 million that's only 10 IO's crafted.  You can't build a full toon for that.  And that's assuming you either had all the salvage already to craft them or bought the salvage with tickets.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Foxfyre

[Display Name]

I think we should give the Hive zone cap time for everyone to get used to it.  I started my first MMO in May and didn't learn about the Hami raids until a month or so ago.  The zerg raids were kinda boring but the rewards were too much to ignore.

 

My first "real" Hami raid occurred the day the change was made to the zone cap.  I made it to Hive 1 on time, mostly because people weren't aware of the change I imagine, but was dc'd shortly after I joined the league and couldn't get back in.  So I joined the league in Hive 2 and was able to participate there.

 

At first I wasn't sure we were going to be able to do it because Hami drove us back a few times.  But we kept at it and WON!  Man, that was glorious!  I received far fewer rewards but the amount of fun we had far surpassed any reduction in reward.

 

My only concern to the zone cap would be an inability to participate.  But Hive 2 took care of that.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Display Name
Removed off-topic comments