Ice Armor's Wet Ice (and Ninjitsu's Kuji-In Rin)

[Brutal Justice]

5 hours ago, Rylas said:

Why talk about the cottage cheese rule and then suggest adding in mechanic ice never had? 

 

It makes more sense to make wet ice give 3-5% defense and allow for it to slot sets. This way it gives players the ability to skip CJ or Maneuvers if they want to. And it gives Ice Armor more IO choices. Both good, small boosts that help the set out. 

I would argue absorb may actually be original to ice armor.  When dodging attacks it will often float the word above your head “absorbed” rather than dodged.  

 

It has done this for as long as I can remember, long before the absorb mechanic existed.  Ice armor was absorbing before absorption was cool 🥶 

[Replacement]

6 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

If you are at the point you can't figure out 0.5% isn't very much no matter what the circumstance, the game isn't a noob trap for you, life is.

Not everyone reads long descriptions and monitors stats, or even has a frame of reference for what a good stat looks like.

 

So yes, letting people put in several pure defense enhancements is a noob trap. You have led the player to believe they have a small defense bonus, and that they have an opportunity to bump it up to a moderate one. When they find this to be untrue, they now have to not only fix their enhancements, but probably also need to respec their slotting.

 

So to the OP topic, I am opposed to allowing defense enhancements for wet ice unless it also gets at least a marginal bump to it's defense numbers. It tricks newer players.

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

Not everyone reads long descriptions and monitors stats, or even has a frame of reference for what a good stat looks like.

 

So yes, letting people put in several pure defense enhancements is a noob trap. You have led the player to believe they have a small defense bonus, and that they have an opportunity to bump it up to a moderate one. When they find this to be untrue, they now have to not only fix their enhancements, but probably also need to respec their slotting.

 

So to the OP topic, I am opposed to allowing defense enhancements for wet ice unless it also gets at least a marginal bump to it's defense numbers. It tricks newer players.

At that point you would have to be against allowing slotting enhancements past serious diminishing returns, or allowing people to slot attacks without putting in at least 1 end red enhancement. Heck don't allow new players to role blasters or khelds. My point is being a noob makes everything a trap, but you get over it, real quick and once you do finding new ways to do things is a lot of fun. Hell I have been playing this game forever and I am still finding new ways to make my builds.

[RenInferno]

54 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Wet Ice's defense is literally the lowest defense buff in the game. The only value allowing defense slotting would add is letting it mule sets, and I'm against any suggestion to alter powers solely for the purpose of making them mules.

Okay, but you're not the only one playing the game. More than your opinion matters.

[Alexandria Ward]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Wet Ice's defense is literally the lowest defense buff in the game. The only value allowing defense slotting would add is letting it mule sets, and I'm against any suggestion to alter powers solely for the purpose of making them mules.

Whether or not you agree with "slot mules" isn't up for debate here. Every other set in the game accepts IO sets, save for the click mez protections and Energy Aura's (because it's a recharge buff.) This isn't about the potential defense numbers you can get out of Wet Ice, this is about consistency, and Ice Armor, in general, could use some help.

 

Your response isn't helpful or constructive to this discussion.

[Haijinx]

51 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

I would argue absorb may actually be original to ice armor.  When dodging attacks it will often float the word above your head “absorbed” rather than dodged.  

 

It has done this for as long as I can remember, long before the absorb mechanic existed.  Ice armor was absorbing before absorption was cool 🥶 

Defense was intended to describe multiple ideas of mitigation that mechanically work the same.

 

Invulnerbility deflects. 

Ice absorbs. 

SR avoids. 

 

The avoid will sometimes even play a dodging animation.  

 

Think over the years people have kind of assumed defense always means dodged.

 

 

[Vanden]

22 minutes ago, Auren said:

Whether or not you agree with "slot mules" isn't up for debate here. Every other set in the game accepts IO sets, save for the click mez protections and Energy Aura's (because it's a recharge buff.) This isn't about the potential defense numbers you can get out of Wet Ice, this is about consistency, and Ice Armor, in general, could use some help.

 

Your response isn't helpful or constructive to this discussion.

Spare me the BS. No one here wants Wet Ice to take defense sets for the sake of consistency, they want it to mule the various IOs defense sets offer.

[RenInferno]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Spare me the BS. No one here wants Wet Ice to take defense sets for the sake of consistency, they want it to mule the various IOs defense sets offer.

If you'd actually read my original post, consistency is why I want the change. With the exception of Energy Aura, it is the only toggle mez protection power that has a secondary buff that does not take enhancements for it. As I said, in my original post. The reason Energy Aura's doesn't accept enhancements for it is because there are no recharge buff enhancements. Recharge time, sure, but not 'increase how much recharge buff this power gives you' enhancements. Wet Ice gives defense AND resistance and takes.... recharge and end redux. Everything else takes something that enhances the secondary effect.

Like I said.

In my original post.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

If you'd actually read my original post, consistency is why I want the change. With the exception of Energy Aura, it is the only toggle mez protection power that has a secondary buff that does not take enhancements for it. As I said, in my original post. The reason Energy Aura's doesn't accept enhancements for it is because there are no recharge buff enhancements. Recharge time, sure, but not 'increase how much recharge buff this power gives you' enhancements. Wet Ice gives defense AND resistance and takes.... recharge and end redux. Everything else takes something that enhances the secondary effect.

Like I said.

In my original post.

I know what you wrote, I just don't buy it.

[Alexandria Ward]

 

Just now, Vanden said:

I know what you wrote, I just don't buy it.

Then go complain about your dislike of set mules somewhere else, because here isn't the place for it.  Your input is nonconstructive to the discussion.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Auren said:

Then go complain about your dislike of set mules somewhere else, because here isn't the place for it.  Your input is nonconstructive to the discussion.

I think this is exactly the place for it, because that's the only actual change that will come of the suggested change for Wet Ice.

[RenInferno]

Just now, Vanden said:

I think this is exactly the place for it, because that's the only actual change that will come of the suggested change for Wet Ice.

At this point you're just picking a fight. Either suggest alternatives or take your negative outlook somewhere else.

[Vanden]

Just now, RenInferno said:

At this point you're just picking a fight. Either suggest alternatives or take your negative outlook somewhere else.

I was happy to leave my initial post as my only one in this thread until someone said it was an invalid response for whatever reason.

[RenInferno]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I was happy to leave my initial post as my only one in this thread until someone said it was an invalid response for whatever reason.

What you gave was not feedback. It was not an alternate suggestion. All you said was the original reason for it being the way it is. That's not constructive to this thread.

With the options available to us now, and the fact that Ice Armor is in dire need of some TLC, that reason no longer applies. We can know, for certain, just how little it gives us. It's like, two mouse clicks away. It also is inconsistent compared to other mez protection toggles. I think the perfect outcome would be 'make it comparable to Combat Jumping and let it take Defense Enhancements'. I will settle for 'takes defense enhancements'. I'm not seeing you give any suggestions for changes that could be made, just personal opinions on why it should be left alone.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

What you gave was not feedback. It was not an alternate suggestion. All you said was the original reason for it being the way it is. That's not constructive to this thread.

With the options available to us now, and the fact that Ice Armor is in dire need of some TLC, that reason no longer applies. We can know, for certain, just how little it gives us. It's like, two mouse clicks away. It also is inconsistent compared to other mez protection toggles. I think the perfect outcome would be 'make it comparable to Combat Jumping and let it take Defense Enhancements'. I will settle for 'takes defense enhancements'. I'm not seeing you give any suggestions for changes that could be made, just personal opinions on why it should be left alone.

Sometimes feedback is just "don't do it." I even gave you a reason for why I said it, and if you want more detail, it's because changing powers to let them mule IOs is power creep.

 

As for Ice Armor in dire need of TLC do you have numbers to back that up? It looks fine on paper to me.

[Replacement]

The consistency sucks.  I'll grant you that, Inferno.

 

On a power scale, though, this is the outcome:

Increases power of the set for a veteran; decreases the power of the set for the fresh recruit.

 

It's simply evident to me that the whole thread highlights the need for Ice Armor to get an update.  Up the base defense to 2.5% first, and I'd be happy to see it added to the defense IO list (still so low that it's nearly a trap to enhance for defense, but at least it's at a precedented level).

 

EDIT: It appears I should stress this: I seem to side with Vanden overall on why Wet Ice shouldn't get +defense enhancements in its current state, but my solution is to take the time to have a conversation about Ice Armor anyway.  It's "not bad" at the moment but it could use some slight buffs, particularly pre-26.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Replacement

[Sura]

3 minutes ago, Replacement said:

It's simply evident to me that the whole thread highlights the need for Ice Armor to get an update.  Up the base defense to 2.5% first, and I'd be happy to see it added to the defense IO list (still so low that it's nearly a trap to enhance for defense, but at least it's at a precedented level) 

I'd love to see a thread with brainstorming about how to bring Ice Armor up a bit.  

[Replacement]

I thought we had one from a few months ago but I either made it up or my search-fu is weaker than new-forums-fu.

[Jeuraud]

22 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

What you gave was not feedback. It was not an alternate suggestion. All you said was the original reason for it being the way it is. That's not constructive to this thread.

It is constructive to this thread, it's adding data and opinion... it's just adding data and opinion that does not validates your suggestion,

On 9/10/2019 at 7:18 PM, RenInferno said:

Short Version: Wet Ice should take Defense and/or Resistance enhancements and sets, Kuji-In Rin should take Resistance enhancements.

which is not asking for a tweak to their defense/resistance, but asking that WI and Kuji-In Rin be allowed to be slotted with Def/Res. In CoH terms, allow them to become Slot Mules... unless of course you just meant Def/Res Es, and not Defense and Resistance Sets as well.

Are you just asking for Defense and Resistance Es to be allowed to be slotted?

 

Me, I have no issue with Slot Mules, and I have a big issue with protecting me from myself, so despite what I think about how the OP has dealt with negative feedback...

I'm for allowing WI and Kuji-In Rin to become Slot Mules.

[RenInferno]

12 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

which is not asking for a tweak to their defense/resistance, but asking that WI and Kuji-In Rin be allowed to be slotted with Def/Res. In CoH terms, allow them to become Slot Mules... unless of course you just meant Def/Res Es, and not Defense and Resistance Sets as well.

Are you just asking for Defense and Resistance Es to be allowed to be slotted?

 

Me, I have no issue with Slot Mules, and I have a big issue with protecting me from myself, so despite what I think about how the OP has dealt with negative feedback...

I'm for allowing WI and Kuji-In Rin to become Slot Mules.

Okay, fine. You caught me. Originally I thought asking for a buff to the numbers on top of allowing enhancements would be asking too much, so I kept it simple. I even stated that Kuji-In Rin makes sense to be unenhanceable, considering it gives you something like... I want to say 20% Psi res? And is stackable? but the power's description should reflect that.

While I think IO sets would be nice, my biggest problem is that it's inconsistent. This is something no one seems to believe me on, but it's all right there, in my original post. Pointing out how all the other powers work, which ones have what bonuses and the fact that they take enhancements (including IO sets,) for them, leaving Wet Ice in the dust.
 

19 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

It is constructive to this thread, it's adding data and opinion... it's just adding data and opinion that does not validates your suggestion,

Data that is now irrelevant with all the access we have to hard numbers between mids, the forums, the in game help chat, combat values we can pull up at any time, and detailed info, and an opinion without a suggestion or helpful feedback as to why. Doesn't matter if it validates what I think or not, but sitting there and crossing your arms and just going "WELL I THINK--" over and over doesn't help the conversation move forward.

[Brutal Justice]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Defense was intended to describe multiple ideas of mitigation that mechanically work the same.

 

Invulnerbility deflects. 

Ice absorbs. 

SR avoids. 

 

The avoid will sometimes even play a dodging animation.  

 

Think over the years people have kind of assumed defense always means dodged.

 

 

Wooo 🥳 ice armor should have some absorb because it coined the effect.

 

invuln’s invincibility should get a deflect mechanic that deals proportional damage back at its attacks

 

super reflexes... well... already has avoidance in pvp so I guess... nerf regen!

[Rylas]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

I know what you wrote, I just don't buy it.

I hate to see comments like this. It just doesn't show any willingness to have a discussion in good faith. Why can't someone want consistency just as much as you don't want IO mules? 

[Rylas]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

It's simply evident to me that the whole thread highlights the need for Ice Armor to get an update.  Up the base defense to 2.5% first, and I'd be happy to see it added to the defense IO list (still so low that it's nearly a trap to enhance for defense, but at least it's at a precedented level).

Bolding the part I disagree with. If Wet Ice was comparable (or even close) to CJ, making it enhanceable makes it a great choice for those who would like to hit soft-cap numbers without having to rely on IOs. As well as affording them the ability to open up pool power options by not using the Leaping or Leadership pool (one, but not likely both). It would allow for a lot more build diversity as well. 

 

And, if used as an IO mule (because there's absolutely nothing wrong with that on any level whatsoever other than completely personal reasoning - which we're all allowed to have and practice in our own builds), it would open up at least one slot for builds that aim to plug the fire resistance hole. 

 

With the little bit of help that Ice Armor could use, these kind of small adjustments offer the best help without altering the feel of the set. I can't see how this would be so controversial. 

[Vanden]

I don't have anything against IO mules in general, but if you enable a slot mule on a set that's fine without it, that's just power creep. And if you're doing it to buff an underperforming set, you're balancing around IOs, another thing to be avoided. If Ice Armor is actually underperforming and a buff puts Wet Ice's defense at a point where it would actually be worth slotting for, then there's nothing wrong with allowing defense IOs in it. But if nothing else is going to change about the power, it shouldn't be changed to allow defense slotting.

[Rylas]

12 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I don't have anything against IO mules in general, but if you enable a slot mule on a set that's fine without it, that's just power creep. And if you're doing it to buff an underperforming set, you're balancing around IOs, another thing to be avoided. If Ice Armor is actually underperforming and a buff puts Wet Ice's defense at a point where it would actually be worth slotting for, then there's nothing wrong with allowing defense IOs in it. But if nothing else is going to change about the power, it shouldn't be changed to allow defense slotting.

I don't think Ice Armor really needs as much help in the SO game. Where it begins to "under perform" is in the moderate to high end IO department. At least IMO. Plugging it's Fire weakness requires a lot of 6 slotting from expensive sets. 

 

Fortunately, my suggestion works on both levels with minimal adjustment.