Ice Armor's Wet Ice (and Ninjitsu's Kuji-In Rin)

[RenInferno]

Short Version: Wet Ice should take Defense and/or Resistance enhancements and sets, Kuji-In Rin should take Resistance enhancements.

Long Version: Of all the defensive sets out there, ones with dedicated toggles for mez protections, Ice is the only one that doesn't accept any enhancements for its secondary effects, and Wet Ice and Kuji-In Rin are the only ones that have a secondary effect that -can- be buffed that you can't slot for.

Willpower's Indomitable Will accepts Defense enhancements for its Psi Defense.
Stone Armor's Rooted accepts Healing/Absorb enhancements for its Regeneration.
Regen's Integration accepts Healing/Absorb enhancements for its Regeneration.
Radiation Armor's Fallout Shelter accepts Resistance enhancements for its Psi and Toxic resistance.
Invulnerability's Unyielding accepts Resistance enhancements for its resistance to all damage.
Electric Armor's Static Shield accepts Resistance enhancements for its resistance to Psi damage.
Dark Armor's Obsidian Shield accepts Resistance enhancements for its resistance to Psi damage.

Bio Armor and Fiery Aura both have their mez protection spread out among powers that do other things, where their Primary Function is not the mez protection itself. (For example, Fire Shield, the tier two in Fiery Aura, gives your Disorient protection.)

Super Reflexes and Shield Defense both have click mez protection, with no secondary effect to enhance.

Energy Aura's Entropic Aura has no enhanceable secondary affect. (There is no recharge buff enhancement.)

Wet Ice gives Defense to ALL defense but Psionics, and Resistance to Cold damage. Kuji-In Rin gives Psionic Resistance.

Neither of these powers accept enhancements for either of these things.

With Kuji-In Rin, the buff is enough that making it unenhancable is reasonable, but the power description should reflect that, or make only a very small portion of this bonus enhanceable.

With Wet Ice, the base defense bonus is less than one percent, and only for environmental defenses, not positional. Nowhere in the power description or detailed info does it state that this is unenhancable. The Cold Damage Resistance is stated as "Ignores buffs and enhancements" in the detailed info, but is not described as unenhancable in the description.

TL;DR: Wet Ice is the only toggle with an enhancable secondary effect that doesn't take enhancements for it, and that should be corrected. Kuji-In Rin should probably say that the psi resistance is unenhanceable or it should take enhancements for it.

[Crysta Clear]

Yes please. I would love to be able to put the global defense procs from Gladiator's Armour and Steadfast Protection into Kuji-In Rin 😛

Edited September 11, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Steampunkette]

I think the '1% Defense to All" is -why- you can't slot it for defense. It's such a low value that it would be a 'Trap' for anyone who didn't pay close attention to the value they were enhancing. I mean fully slotted for Defense to ED you're getting .5 additional defense. 

 

That's pretty terrible.

[GM Sijin]

Regarding Kuji-In Rin, the reason it doesn't accept resistance enhancements is because it's a click that is easily stackable (solo you can achieve 2+ stacks permanently with normal builds). If they allowed the power to accept resistance enhancements the psi resistance would almost definitely be reduced moderately to the point where it was equivalent or even inferior with typical generic IO slotting.

[RenInferno]

59 minutes ago, GM Sijin said:

Regarding Kuji-In Rin, the reason it doesn't accept resistance enhancements is because it's a click that is easily stackable (solo you can achieve 2+ stacks permanently with normal builds). If they allowed the power to accept resistance enhancements the psi resistance would almost definitely be reduced moderately to the point where it was equivalent or even inferior with typical generic IO slotting.

Okay, but what about Wet Ice, then? It's literally the only mez protection that offers a secondary effect that you can't buff at that point. Even if the amount it buffs you for is 'minuscule' it makes the power into a mule for IO sets, which is more than it can do right now. I will admit that the numbers I pulled are from the scrapper version, I think on tanks it gives you closer to 2%, which still isn't a lot, but at that point it's the same as some of the set bonuses you can get. It's an outlier in how Mez-Protection-With-Other-Buff-Powers work.

(Also, if Kuji-In Rin isn't meant to be enhanceable, which I'm pretty okay with, it is a large enough buff that it doesn't need it, the description should reflect that. A simple 'This Psionic Resistance is unenhanceable' line added doesn't seem like much.)

[GM Sijin]

51 minutes ago, RenInferno said:

Okay, but what about Wet Ice, then?

I'm less familiar with the reasons behind Wet Ice. As far as I'm concerned it could be made to accept both defense and resist enhancements, though you certainly don't need more cold resist on ice armor. The benefit you get from purely defense enhancements is minuscule, but sets provide other bonuses and it should be a consideration. My guess is the fear in the original design would be that players weren't aware of just exactly how little defense they were getting from enhancing the power. That's no longer the case, and hasn't been a good long while. We can see pretty much all the numbers now, and can make informed decisions based on those.

[Vanden]

7 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I think the '1% Defense to All" is -why- you can't slot it for defense. It's such a low value that it would be a 'Trap' for anyone who didn't pay close attention to the value they were enhancing. I mean fully slotted for Defense to ED you're getting .5 additional defense.

That's exactly why you can't slot it. Back during the GDN Wet Ice was hit so hard that the devs removed the ability to slot defense into it to protect players from themselves; there was a conversation on the forums that went precisely in that direction.

[RenInferno]

7 hours ago, GM Sijin said:

I'm less familiar with the reasons behind Wet Ice. As far as I'm concerned it could be made to accept both defense and resist enhancements, though you certainly don't need more cold resist on ice armor. The benefit you get from purely defense enhancements is minuscule, but sets provide other bonuses and it should be a consideration. My guess is the fear in the original design would be that players weren't aware of just exactly how little defense they were getting from enhancing the power. That's no longer the case, and hasn't been a good long while. We can see pretty much all the numbers now, and can make informed decisions based on those.

With how unpopular Ice Armor seems to be anyway, maybe the tiniest of changes could make it a little more popular. I feel like it could use more attention, but I'm not a number cruncher like some people, and beyond 'it doesn't make sense that you can't put anything in wet ice' I wouldn't know where to start. Either way, I'll take this as the tiniest ray of hope that maybe it'll get looked at.

[Megajoule]

See what Vanden said, quoting Steampunkette - you can't slot Wet Ice for Def because, in its current state, it might as well not grant any.  It's a rounding error.

Before making it slottable, you'd first have to restore it to actually providing some.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Megajoule

[Rylas]

On 9/11/2019 at 6:33 AM, Steampunkette said:

I think the '1% Defense to All" is -why- you can't slot it for defense. It's such a low value that it would be a 'Trap' for anyone who didn't pay close attention to the value they were enhancing. I mean fully slotted for Defense to ED you're getting .5 additional defense. 

 

That's pretty terrible.

I can understand that to a point. But anyone that unaware of the value/pay-off of their slotting choices, is probably already being wasteful with their slotting already. I've commented on a few endurance-woe threads about how slotting more then one EndRdx is pointless on most toggle armors.

 

I think @Megajoule touched on my thoughts on the power; why does it even bother to grant 1% Defense at all at this point? At least if they opened it up to use sets then it could actually provide some actual bonus outside of mez protection. Ice Armor is a long time favorite of mine, but the set could use a bit of boosting. This is certainly one way to do that and it wouldn't be a change that would raise concerns over balance or performance issues. 

[Crysta Clear]

There are valid defense IO pieces to slot in a power like that, which have nothing to do with defense. Shield Wall: Teleportation Protection / Resist All +5%, for example. Or Kismet: Accuracy +6%. Its default slot is a great place to put pieces like that, so if it has an enhanceable defense component, it should be allowed to accept defense sets even if the defense value itself is piddly.

 

Just like a lot of powers that have resistance should be allowed to accept resistance sets, even if the resistance itself is small or situational or requires recasting, or possibly doesn't have 100% uptime -- because that's a great place to put your +3% defense globals from Gladiator's Armour and Steadfast Protection.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Megajoule]

Unfortunately, there's (currently) no way of making it immediately obvious to a standard player, in the game, that "you don't ever want to actually slot this for what it claims to be; just use it for a slotmule."

[Rylas]

21 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

Unfortunately, there's (currently) no way of making it immediately obvious to a standard player, in the game, that "you don't ever want to actually slot this for what it claims to be; just use it for a slotmule."

How about changing the power description? 

 

Wet Ice
When you activate this power, you cover yourself in a thick coating of slick, melting ice. This makes you slippery, leaving you nearly immune to Disorient, Immobilization, Hold, Sleep, Slow and Knockback effects. This power also adds miniscule defense to all attacks except Psionics, and is not worth slotting for. Wet Ice also reduces Cold damage and grants you resistance to Defense DeBuffs

[Megajoule]

ehhh... part of me thinks that's inelegant, as is the very concept/existence of "slotmule" powers/IOs etc, but we seem to be stuck with 'em.

[Rylas]

22 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

ehhh... part of me thinks that's inelegant, as is the very concept/existence of "slotmule" powers/IOs etc, but we seem to be stuck with 'em.

I was just being silly, not to worry.

 

I think worrying about what the "standard" player (whatever that is at this point) might do for slotting is just too small an issue to try to worry about considering Ice Armor was second to last place for Tankers and Stalkers and dead last for everyone else that can use it. I don't think the numbers of people slotting WI incorrectly because they're poorly informed will be that much. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Rylas
for brevity

[ninja surprise]

On 9/12/2019 at 10:37 AM, Crysta Clear said:

Just like a lot of powers that have resistance should be allowed to accept resistance sets, even if the resistance itself is small or situational or requires recasting, or possibly doesn't have 100% uptime -- because that's a great place to put your +3% defense globals from Gladiator's Armour and Steadfast Protection.

I wish Practiced Brawler could take those Uniques.

[Crysta Clear]

Or just trust players to be able to recognize when something is not necessarily the best idea to slot a certain way, and to accept the deficiencies in their build if they aren't paying attention. It's not like it's difficult to respec when you figure it out, and if you never figure it out, then you aren't the kind of player to whom your build really matters.

[DSorrow]

14 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

Or just trust players to be able to recognize when something is not necessarily the best idea to slot a certain way, and to accept the deficiencies in their build if they aren't paying attention. It's not like it's difficult to respec when you figure it out, and if you never figure it out, then you aren't the kind of player to whom your build really matters.

I agree with this assessment.

[Replacement]

15 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

Or just trust players to be able to recognize when something is not necessarily the best idea to slot a certain way, and to accept the deficiencies in their build if they aren't paying attention. It's not like it's difficult to respec when you figure it out, and if you never figure it out, then you aren't the kind of player to whom your build really matters.

This is known as "burden of knowledge" and is part of a larger conversation about false game depth (tl;dr: complexity does not equal depth of play. Just noob traps).

 

I have a better solution: totally remove the silly 1% defense, compensate elsewhere. The 1% is the silliest attempt to uphold the cottage rule ever.

 

Personally, I'd go for a self-renewing Absorb shield on Wet Ice.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Replacement

[Rylas]

46 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I have a better solution: totally remove the silly 1% defense, compensate elsewhere. The 1% is the silliest attempt to uphold the cottage rule ever.

Why talk about the cottage cheese rule and then suggest adding in mechanic ice never had? 

 

It makes more sense to make wet ice give 3-5% defense and allow for it to slot sets. This way it gives players the ability to skip CJ or Maneuvers if they want to. And it gives Ice Armor more IO choices. Both good, small boosts that help the set out. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Rylas

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Rylas said:

Why talk about the cottage cheese rule and then suggest adding in mechanic ice never had? 

 

It makes more sense to make wet ice give 3-5% defense and allow for it to slot sets. This way it gives players the ability to skip CJ or Maneuvers if they want to. And it gives Ice Armor more IO choices. Both good, small boosts that help the set out. 

That's fair, but note how I intentionally separated my two thoughts. 1% defense is doing so little that it should be reassessed. Was that bit the razor's edge of balance? My sense is, based on my reading in this thread, they left it in so the power could technically do what they originally said it did.  It's lip service to their own mandate, and I'm sure it made a lot of sense to them at the time.

 

Tiny pointless defense bonus is pointless. Either remove it or buff it, instead of having it sit here mocking us.

 

Moving further into subjectivity, I play a lot looser when it comes to ye olde cottages (adds to survival, does not remove enhancement options. I see no problem), and the idea of adding Absorbs to ice sets has been bandied about elsewhere. I also am biased against mule powers. But yeah, I'd be all for tuning it to CJ numbers instead.

 

Btw: mids tells me it's only 1% defense for Tankers too.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Replacement

[Crysta Clear]

Consistency of mechanics is important. If a power has an enhanceable aspect, it should be able to take enhancements of that aspect's type, however small. It's not "false depth," because that slot can be filled with Defense set pieces that otherwise benefit things that aren't Defense -- such as Kismet: +6% Accuracy and Shield Wall: +5% Resist All.

 

There is no such thing as a "noob trap," only "something someone eventually learns not to do." This is not a bad thing, especially when it has valuable niche uses. It's part of getting better at a game.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Megajoule]

Leaving the power with 1% defense is like taking all of a treasure hoard except for one coin, IMO.

[Vanden]

Wet Ice's defense is literally the lowest defense buff in the game. The only value allowing defense slotting would add is letting it mule sets, and I'm against any suggestion to alter powers solely for the purpose of making them mules.

[TheAdjustor]

5 hours ago, Replacement said:

This is known as "burden of knowledge" and is part of a larger conversation about false game depth (tl;dr: complexity does not equal depth of play. Just noob traps).

 

I have a better solution: totally remove the silly 1% defense, compensate elsewhere. The 1% is the silliest attempt to uphold the cottage rule ever.

 

Personally, I'd go for a self-renewing Absorb shield on Wet Ice.

If you are at the point you can't figure out 0.5% isn't very much no matter what the circumstance, the game isn't a noob trap for you, life is.

Edited September 16, 2019 by TheAdjustor