are tankers still needed?

[VV]

The answer to the monotonously repeated question, "Is [insert AT here] needed," is always the same.

A Tanker, like any AT, is most useful when played correctly. A poorly played AT, of any type, is not particularly useful. This does seem obviously self-evident, but people continue to re-ask the question. The thing about the Tanker AT is that most people do not play Tankers correctly, moreso than any other AT. This is why there is an impression that Tankers are not needed. (Gotta insert a pet peeve here, nothing annoys me more than seeing the "primary tanker" off to the side focusing on one dude while the rest of the battle is elsewhere.)

 

And, as has been said above, any team of 8 decently built and played characters, of any AT mix, can pretty much steamroll most content. Not ALL content, but the vast majority. Ever run in a full team of Controllers? Defenders? MMs? But, if you need more proof, roll out with a full team of Tankers and see how it goes. No time spent buffing or healing or debuffing, no need for controls, no worrying about teammates getting mezzed or squishies going down. Just a straight roll through everything at high speed. Suddenly, your question will become, "Do we need any NON-tanks?"

[Myrmidon]

I don’t need a Tanker, however, I have never teamed with you so I couldn’t answer whether or not you need one.

[Leogunner]

4 hours ago, jshmoe1236123 said:

Leaving the team is a missed opportunity to create chaos. At that point, it's to find out what will it take to get me kicked. 

Not going to lie.  As the Stalker, I was intentionally trying to push boundaries without actually tying to get anyone killed.  Like I said, I don't have to actually give a **** since I can just snoop around spawns or peace out if things get hairy.

 

That being said, he/she wasn't a bad  tank, per say...just one you wouldn't want to seek out again.

[Clave Dark 5]

12 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Just yesterday, there was a Tanker who insisted on herding, calling where he/she was herding to, when to start attacking and such.  As a Stalker, I don't have to give a **** at all and was just kinda chuckling to myself.  He/she also insisted on pushing the difficulty up and holding team spots for a defender or controller specifically.  When he/she finally logged, I said one little grain of truth: "Well, he was rather overbearing..." and that released the flood gates of everyone complaining and making jokes at their expense.

Herding's not a bad idea, and calling where you're herding to is fine too, I've appreciated it from tanks in the past.  The rest of that though is pretty dumb, yeah.  The only time I've seen such prima donna actions though were from a brute who was mad at my Dom for, you know, holding foes (the gall!) instead of letting them hit him.  Fortunately that was back long before shut down, so that tells you how often I've seen such nonsense.

[Snakebit]

12 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Your mileage may vary.

 

Of all the ATs, I have encountered the most primadonnas playing Tankers and that's saying a lot when there's usually not multiple Tankers on a team but often multiple blasters, defenders, brutes, etc.

 

Just yesterday, there was a Tanker who insisted on herding, calling where he/she was herding to, when to start attacking and such.  As a Stalker, I don't have to give a **** at all and was just kinda chuckling to myself.  He/she also insisted on pushing the difficulty up and holding team spots for a defender or controller specifically.  When he/she finally logged, I said one little grain of truth: "Well, he was rather overbearing..." and that released the flood gates of everyone complaining and making jokes at their expense.

 

lol I'm not one to talk about people behind their backs (I'll say it to your face though) but I have to admit, it was a nice reminder of what I won't do as a Tanker.  That crap is too slow...or at least he/she was executing it in an aggravatingly slow manner. 

This happened to me but with a Brute. I was stalking in an even level (for me) radios and someone (not the Brute)started getting snitty about me playing wide, not waiting for the spawns to coalesce around the brute, so I stopped and watched (as I usually do when someone complains). Then the complainer said "hey why don't you kill the boss in the hall" so I ran into the next room (2 spawns) and said "This boss?" and cleared both spawns. Sent "Can I play my toon now?" to team chat and got no response so I started playing wide again and nobody complained. They continued to corner pull and I continued to grief Paragon Protectors. 

[subbacultchas]

I did some of this last night. Grouped up with a 40s team to finish Anti-matter, then a few more quests in Tina's arc. It was very much follow the tank the entire thing at +1 or +2, which is very very slow for a Titan Bio Scrapper T3/T4. I stuck around a couple of missions because I only had 45 minutes and didn't care much. But it was a slow 45 minutes, and at least I knew what I was getting into.

[jubakumbi]

This thread inspired me to level up my Tank some more, I have not rebuilt my Tank from Retail yet.

 

Last night, I jumped on the first team doing content my level I saw in LFT.

 

I said little more than my standard "g'day" to be polite, not a talkitive group, but fun enough.

 

Three MMs and other assorted things.

 

I would go left sometimes and some of the team would go right.

When I had aggro locked on the group I was in and would see a health bar dropping, I jumped to the second grounp to get some agro for a while, rinse repeat.

I did my 'job', I took damage so others did not have to...

The players that liked a tank in front, just automatically followed me, the others continued to do thier thing.

 

No drama, no accusations of anyone doing anything wrong, just moved through the content, even when the party almost wiped and couple of us whittled down a big room until it was safe to rez.

 

I tend to agree that those players who lament the perceived lack of a Tank being needed (or a Healer being needed) are the ones who just don't get fawned over and made the defacto leader because they play a Tank, or are so ingrained in the idea that MMOs must folow the trinity or it's 'wrong'.

 

After Retail, I played Tanks in a number of MMOs...most I hated for a very simple reason...the other players expected the Tank to lead the whole group, all the time, with explicit and complete instructions and scripts that 'everyone knew', for every encounter...ugh, it was horrible...I don't play MMOs to herd people...

[subbacultchas]

Honestly, although I loved tanks in the live game and had a stable of them, I'm reluctant to play them in this. I already find myself leading things more often than I'd like, and I don't want it more often because I'm the tanker.

[jubakumbi]

Just now, subbacultchas said:

Honestly, although I loved tanks in the live game and had a stable of them, I'm reluctant to play them in this. I already find myself leading things more often than I'd like, and I don't want it more often because I'm the tanker.

I have noticed a drastic difference compared to Live in the number of people that will 'go first'.

The groups I recall from Live were full of people fighting to 'go first'.

On HC, IME grouping so far, I see very, very few players the seem to want to 'go first'.

 

Could be perception bias, bad memeory, etc., but it really feels to me like there are a lot more "Indie, you go first" players...

 

So, I have found that on groups, I seem to be leading the pack most of the time, even if it's not my intent...

I have been joking about tanking with everything - this is why...

[subbacultchas]

3 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

I have noticed a drastic difference compared to Live in the number of people that will 'go first'.

The groups I recall from Live were full of people fighting to 'go first'.

On HC, IME grouping so far, I see very, very few players the seem to want to 'go first'.

 

Could be perception bias, bad memeory, etc., but it really feels to me like there are a lot more "Indie, you go first" players...

 

So, I have found that on groups, I seem to be leading the pack most of the time, even if it's not my intent...

I have been joking about tanking with everything - this is why...

It's not just you. I've found myself "going first" with controllers, corruptors, and even my TA/Water defender who should not really ever go first. 

But I'm of the opinion that making bad calls is better than being unable to make calls, right?

Edited September 19, 2019 by subbacultchas

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, subbacultchas said:

It's not just you. I've found myself "going first" with controllers, corruptors, and even my TA/Water defender who should not really ever go first. 

But I'm of the opinion that making bad calls is better than being unable to make calls, right?

"If you don't start nuttin', there won't be nuttin'" ...

[subbacultchas]

Hahah, that's one of my friend's favorite sayings. "Don't start none, won't be none."

 

[Without_Pause]

I had someone ask if I wanted to team on a fairly high level team as a melee character(brute maybe) and then I said I had just hit 22 so I had nothing slotted and would prefer switching to something which did have things slotted. They said they preferred what I had because they wanted something which couldn't pull agro from the tank. Not the first time I had comments about agro and tanks on teams, but that felt like the most odd. Almost felt like grabbing my Spines/bio brute. 😛

[Cutter]

1 hour ago, jubakumbi said:

...

I would go left sometimes and some of the team would go right.

When I had aggro locked on the group I was in and would see a health bar dropping, I jumped to the second grounp to get some agro for a while, rinse repeat.

I did my 'job', I took damage so others did not have to...

The players that liked a tank in front, just automatically followed me, the others continued to do thier thing.

...

This has mostly been my experience as well. If the star says "follow the tank", then hey great my job just got easier. If nobody says anything, I go in first anyway and take my aggro, then watch for strays. When I see people going off on their own, welp, guess that's your aggro now and I'm trusting that you know your build well enough to handle what you pull, especially if you're 3 rooms away.

[Doc_Scorpion]

58 minutes ago, Cutter said:

This has mostly been my experience as well. If the star says "follow the tank", then hey great my job just got easier.

Assuming the star is familiar with any playstyle that isn't an uncoordinated zerg rush...  (As I've said elsewhere, tactical play is almost extinct in Homecoming.)  Heck, assuming the star wants to (or is capable of) exerting any control or setting any direction in the first place.  Both are somewhat dodgy assumptions.

[Olly]

6 hours ago, Derekl1963 said:

Assuming the star is familiar with any playstyle that isn't an uncoordinated zerg rush...  (As I've said elsewhere, tactical play is almost extinct in Homecoming.)  Heck, assuming the star wants to (or is capable of) exerting any control or setting any direction in the first place.  Both are somewhat dodgy assumptions.

 

If the goal is the shortest defeat all time, isn't the most efficient (and generally most fun) team tactic to herd?  That if there's a tank, that tank (or other AT) holds aggro. The stalkers/brutes/blasters can run ahead and chew on mobs and/or bring them back.   Though if more than 1 person does that, it becomes less efficient and less fun, right? 

 

Which is why I don't understand when 2+ players run ahead and zerg around pulling the support members in multiple directions.   I don't think that sort of team behaviour should be accepted as "optimal".  Of course there are exceptions -- council cave maps being one that comes to mind.  Personally, if I"m playing support I'll stick by the tankiest player.  And if I'm playing a scrap or brute, I'll run ahead a bit and gather/kill mobs for the team.  If someone else is doing that, then I'll effectively duo with them instead of running off in a third direction.  It confuses me when players run ahead and they're not capable of surviving a mob; effectively forcing their pace on the entire team to keep them alive.

[Clave Dark 5]

1 hour ago, Olly said:

 It confuses me when players run ahead and they're not capable of surviving a mob; effectively forcing their pace on the entire team to keep them alive.

I've seen this a few times from pretty squishie players (like a Blaster who always ran ahead to make the first attack - and believe me, their toon did not have a build to support such risks) and put it down newbies who're not really sure what they're doing yet.

 

But yeah, I just went with and tried to keep them healed or to more quickly take down their foes or whatever I could to prevent them from dying so often, based on the character I was playing at the time.

[PaxArcana]

2 hours ago, Olly said:

It confuses me when players run ahead and they're not capable of surviving a mob; effectively forcing their pace on the entire team to keep them alive.

It doesn't confuse me.

I just ignore their stupid arse, and get on with the actual teamwork bit. 🙂 

[Abraxus]

I was playing my healer last night, on a Moonfire TF.  The tank seemed to know what he was doing, and things were going well.  Then a couple of missions in, this phenomenon where the team splits into parts, in order to cover ground quicker occurred.  As is my custom, I stuck with the tank, and kept him alive with the others that stuck with him.  It took a little longer to go through the mobs, be we got through them alive, and well.  The same cannot be said for the "beta" team, who were WAY too far away for the healer to do them any good.  I saw them go red multiple times on the map, but all I felt was the satisfaction of knowing that I was on the right side of that decision.  If the difficulty level were higher, and their folly resulted in all of us being repeatedly wiped as well, I would have felt the need to make the attempt to educate.  As it was, we were fine, and they were red, so I let that be their education.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Abraxus

[jubakumbi]

9 hours ago, Abraxus said:

I was playing my healer last night, on a Moonfire TF.  The tank seemed to know what he was doing, and things were going well.  Then a couple of missions in, this phenomenon where the team splits into parts, in order to cover ground quicker occurred.  As is my custom, I stuck with the tank, and kept him alive with the others that stuck with him.  It took a little longer to go through the mobs, be we got through them alive, and well.  The same cannot be said for the "beta" team, who were WAY too far away for the healer to do them any good.  I saw them go red multiple times on the map, but all I felt was the satisfaction of knowing that I was on the right side of that decision.  If the difficulty level were higher, and their folly resulted in all of us being repeatedly wiped as well, I would have felt the need to make the attempt to educate.  As it was, we were fine, and they were red, so I let that be their education.

So, not worrying about faling down or team wipes is 'wrong"? 🙂

If so, I will never be 'right'. 🙂

 

Really, the way you word this @Abraxus, you are, in my mind, saying they way they chose to play is 'wrong'.

'The satifaction of knowing I was on the right side'.

Really?

To your own words, they got thorugh just fine, so it seems they did things 'right' to me.

 

It's this kind of pervasive attitude that there is a 'right' and a 'wrong' way to play a game that, IMO, is the root of all Evil in CoH. 🙂

 

Added to a 'need to educate' sounds exactly like 'get off my lawn' to me, because the 'kids' did not play the way you would have...

 

@Abraxus, I really respect you based on your posts, you seem to really try and be good to everyone, very neutral, so this post made me go 'whut?'...

[subbacultchas]

13 hours ago, Olly said:

If the goal is the shortest defeat all time, isn't the most efficient (and generally most fun) team tactic to herd? 

Really depends on team composition, type of enemies, how the spawns both spread and are stacked, the map, levels and a bunch of other little things. Herding is not always the best, although I'd say at lower level it may be more often. Once youre in late 30s to 50s with a good team composition, you can wipe a group in the amount of time it takes a tank/brute to get aggro and pull around a corner. Especially on larger maps without a lot of spots to break line of sight. 

So it's really iffy that herding will be the best, or even safest. I don't find that to be true very often at all, especially as you approach higher levels.

[jubakumbi]

17 minutes ago, subbacultchas said:

Really depends on team composition, type of enemies, how the spawns both spread and are stacked, the map, levels and a bunch of other little things. Herding is not always the best, although I'd say at lower level it may be more often. Once youre in late 30s to 50s with a good team composition, you can wipe a group in the amount of time it takes a tank/brute to get aggro and pull around a corner. Especially on larger maps without a lot of spots to break line of sight. 

So it's really iffy that herding will be the best, or even safest. I don't find that to be true very often at all, especially as you approach higher levels.

Not to mention that herding is, IMO, the most boring and tedious possible way to approach the content.

Sure, I thin the crowd now and then in big rooms by trying to agro a single group, etc., but herding is just tedious, IME.

Many parts of CoH get repetitive and herding, IMO, puts that on steroids, making the game a boring chore that follows a formula for every spawn like some assembly line...ugh.

 

IMO, the 'best' way to play is full of chaos and emergencies, because I run on Funs/per second, not rewards...

Well aware after so many years of playing I seem to be the minority, but I cannot last on a herding team for more than a mission, to remind myself why I don't do it.

[Abraxus]

1 hour ago, jubakumbi said:

So, not worrying about faling down or team wipes is 'wrong"? 🙂

If so, I will never be 'right'. 🙂

 

Really, the way you word this @Abraxus, you are, in my mind, saying they way they chose to play is 'wrong'.

'The satifaction of knowing I was on the right side'.

Really?

To your own words, they got thorugh just fine, so it seems they did things 'right' to me.

 

It's this kind of pervasive attitude that there is a 'right' and a 'wrong' way to play a game that, IMO, is the root of all Evil in CoH. 🙂

 

Added to a 'need to educate' sounds exactly like 'get off my lawn' to me, because the 'kids' did not play the way you would have...

 

@Abraxus, I really respect you based on your posts, you seem to really try and be good to everyone, very neutral, so this post made me go 'whut?'...

Basically, what I was trying to get across was that, I followed the tank to help him do his job.  The others that decided to go their own way (mainly in the interest of saving a little time), and got killed repeatedly, chose their own fate.  I was not going to try to split my healing abilities between two disparate groups.  I chose the traditional route of following the tank, and kept him, and the main part of the team alive to the best of my ability.  I would have preferred to turn the difficulty up a notch, and have the entire team focused, together, and moving forward, but the lower difficulty level convinced some that they could go it on their own, and they paid for that decision repeatedly.  Nothing right, or wrong.  Not pontificating on anyone's play style.  But, if I am a healer on a team, and you decide to split off from the tank, then you're on your own, because I will be where the meat shield is.  That's all. 

 

However, all that said, if their splitting off in the interest in time was costing the team unnecessary wipes, then I would have had a problem.  Hopefully, explains a little better what I was thinking in my post, and restores your high opinion of me (thanks for that BTW). 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Abraxus

[jubakumbi]

8 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Basically, what I was trying to get across was that, I followed the tank to help him do his job.  The others that decided to go their own way (mainly in the interest of saving a little time), and got killed repeatedly, chose their own fate.  I was not going to try to split my healing abilities between two disparate groups.  I chose the traditional route of following the tank, and kept him, and the main part of the team alive to the best of my ability.  I would have preferred to turn the difficulty up a notch, and have the entire team focused, together, and moving forward, but the lower difficulty level convinced some that they could go it on their own, and they paid for that decision repeatedly.  Nothing right, or wrong.  Not pontificating on anyone's play style.  But, if I am a healer on a team, and you decide to split off from the tank, then you're on your own, because I will be where the meat shield is.  That's all. 

 

However, all that said, if their splitting off in the interest in time was costing the team unnecessary wipes, then I would have had a problem.  Hopefully, explains a little better what I was thinking in my post, and restores your high opinion of me (thanks for that BTW). 

 

Well I think you might just have what I call 'healer guilt' 🙂

My main buddy who plays has it bad...whereas I could not care less if others run off and fall down.

 

I think the main thing is more simple though for me...

I have not once in this game ever thought "let me explain to others in the team" without being asked how to solve an encounter.

If the team does not suit me, I just leave, I simply do not have the wiring or desire to explain things to the team so that it changes to my liking.

I really don't 'get' the 'need/desire' to tell others to stop playing or doing something in the game...I just walk away, my PoV is such that I don't want the unsolicited 'advice' and therefore I would never offer such.

 

Obviously, I love to pontificate on my opinion, here on the forums, but in-game I just quietly kill pixels.

 

Well aware that outlook is not universally shared. 🙂

 

I guess in the end, I prefer players learn on thier own without my intervention...if they can access the game, then IMO they can access Google and therefore don't need my opinion on how to play...I have to do enough 'leading' in my RL...

 

@Abraxus, we can disagree until Judgement Day and I will respect your opinion, because you respect mine.

We are, afterall, really just discussing how to respectfully playing a game. 🙂

 

[Abraxus]

26 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

@Abraxus, we can disagree until Judgement Day and I will respect your opinion, because you respect mine.

We are, afterall, really just discussing how to respectfully playing a game. 🙂

 

And there ya have it! 🙂