Everything else sucks compared to AE farming

[Weylin]

AE farming on typical ATs is boring (Though I had some fun with a fire farmer), but it's like 20x faster and easier to power level a toon off of level 1 elite bosses than to try and do normal missions solo.

 

On one hand I enjoy having the option to power level, but on the flipside I hate how comparatively unrewarding the rest of the game is because of it.

Trash random drops, bad exp/inf, traveling long distances, and cranking up the difficulty to the maximum that you can barely deal with yet still getting next to nothing for it... all sucks.

Getting together with a mission team can be decent, and is certainly a lot more fun, but I haven't seen an LFG mission ad in hours that I even marginally qualify for.

 

DFB DFB DFB DFB, then what? You got your 4 basic offensive abilities and your best option is to farm AE Elites the rest of the way. If you want to do the stories, you can just use an oro crystal later.

 

My first character was an MM that I leveled 'normally' through story arcs and contacts, and it took me nearly 2 months to reach 50.

Then, I made a fire farmer and reached 50 in one day.

After seeing the sheer efficiency of AE farming first hand, it's really hard to go back.

[Snakebit]

Playing the game is the reward. Farming is a progression mechanic.

[Weylin]

Fundamentally, what really gets to me, is that there is practically no correlation between difficulty and reward.

If you're playing at settings in which you barely survive each encounter, it seems intuitive that it should reward more than an EB who chucks a knife at you every 5 seconds.

[Snakebit]

Thats an artifact of the original risk reward concepts that has been pushed to limits not foreseen during OG roll out. They never quite got it through their heads that players will seek the path of least resistance every time.

[swordchucks]

The problem is really that fire farming is entirely too rewarding for the challenge/risk/time associated with it.  I'd like to see it brought more in line with pretty much every other activity in the game.  I've never heard a reasonable argument for keeping it as-is outside of "anyone can do it" and "I like it". 

[DSorrow]

4 hours ago, Weylin said:

Fundamentally, what really gets to me, is that there is practically no correlation between difficulty and reward.

If you're playing at settings in which you barely survive each encounter, it seems intuitive that it should reward more than an EB who chucks a knife at you every 5 seconds.

This is one of the things I hope Homecoming would develop the most. There's a huge range of difficulty available right now even just in terms of enemy groups (consider Council vs Vanguard for a pretty extreme contrast), yet all of them have pretty much the same rewards. The issue is, though, that while I definitely think the rewards should be different depending on the difficulty of the enemies, it's dangerous to make them scale too much as we might end up with a very bubbled community: power gamers who only want to do +4/x8 Rularuu and such because comparatively everything else is a waste of time, and so on, which might limit team availability depending on the IO / Incarnate status of your character.

 

I can't really speak for AE as I haven't used it for anything besides fighting specific AVs, but I find that with DXP the game has a pretty good rate of progression. I'm getting a new 50 roughly once every 3 weeks at 15-20 hours playtime per character, which is mostly spent doing TFs. That said, I know that continuing without DXP would feel like an absolute slog so I can see why after AE farming everything else would feel extremely unrewarding.

[jubakumbi]

IMO, this is imply trying to make the game something it is not....

 

This game is about making a (super) hero and fightin' bad guys.

In a comics style universe.

 

We have a danger room where you can get ready to fight crime, quickly.

We now have a world where acquiring the eq needed is easy.

 

So where is the problem?

If you want to play the game gritty and hard, you can.

If you want to go into the danger room and PL to the end, you can.

If you want to use all or none of the rewards, you can.

 

All based around personal responcibility and self discipline, rather than being coerced or forced to play the game a certain way to get the character you have in mind.

No one forces anyone to get all the things as fast as possible other than ones self.

 

 

[Sunrunner]

5 hours ago, Weylin said:

AE farming on typical ATs is boring (Though I had some fun with a fire farmer), but it's like 20x faster and easier to power level a toon off of level 1 elite bosses than to try and do normal missions solo.

 

On one hand I enjoy having the option to power level, but on the flipside I hate how comparatively unrewarding the rest of the game is because of it.

Trash random drops, bad exp/inf, traveling long distances, and cranking up the difficulty to the maximum that you can barely deal with yet still getting next to nothing for it... all sucks.

Getting together with a mission team can be decent, and is certainly a lot more fun, but I haven't seen an LFG mission ad in hours that I even marginally qualify for.

 

DFB DFB DFB DFB, then what? You got your 4 basic offensive abilities and your best option is to farm AE Elites the rest of the way. If you want to do the stories, you can just use an oro crystal later.

 

My first character was an MM that I leveled 'normally' through story arcs and contacts, and it took me nearly 2 months to reach 50.

Then, I made a fire farmer and reached 50 in one day.

After seeing the sheer efficiency of AE farming first hand, it's really hard to go back.

Supernormal Stimuli.  It really is that simple; you've found the junkfood version of City and its ruining your dinner.  😉

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, swordchucks said:

The problem is really that fire farming is entirely too rewarding for the challenge/risk/time associated with it.  I'd like to see it brought more in line with pretty much every other activity in the game.  I've never heard a reasonable argument for keeping it as-is outside of "anyone can do it" and "I like it". 

No. The ease of leveling up new characters is the single biggest factor in me sticking around, I have zero desire to grind out character after character for 100s of hours.. If you don't like it, don't do it. Stop trying to ruin other people's fun.

[Sunrunner]

1 hour ago, swordchucks said:

The problem is really that fire farming is entirely too rewarding for the challenge/risk/time associated with it.  I'd like to see it brought more in line with pretty much every other activity in the game.  I've never heard a reasonable argument for keeping it as-is outside of "anyone can do it" and "I like it". 

You are more than welcome to walk a non-farmer into a fire farm set to +4/x8.  Solo, natch.  See exactly how little challenge there is, how little risk your character is experiencing and how little time it takes to complete.  *shrugs*  That a dedicated specialist can reliably do a thing doesn't mean that thing isn't challenging, risky or time-consuming for everyone else.

[jubakumbi]

6 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

No. The ease of leveling up new characters is the single biggest factor in me sticking around, I have zero desire to grind out character after character for 100s of hours.. If you don't like it, don't do it. Stop trying to ruin other people's fun.

IMO, the thinking around things needing to be 'harder' is still wrapped up in the idea that a player makes only a single 'main' and might, maybe, just for a mule or some other reward, make an 'alt'.

 

In this game, IMO, the whole game is based around making more characters and I totally agree having to level each one like I did in AC would be ... not fun to me.

 

When people say any game is too easy, IMO, it just means they read all the cheat sheets others took the time to figure out, followed the shortest, fastest path to beat the game, and then wonder why the experience is lacking, when they basically replayed/watched someone elses saved game.

 

Of course there was no challenge, the player shorted the entire process.

 

IMO, in CoH as compared to other MMOs, my 'main' is my SG and when I have the entire team assembled, then my 'main' will be complete.

One single character is just a part of that IMO.

 

CoH at this point is pretty close to just having a PnP rulebook living online and in your house rules, just like in table-top PnP, you can choose to PL or play it gritty.

Personal choices, allowed by the rules.

[quixoteprog]

1 hour ago, swordchucks said:

The problem is really that fire farming is entirely too rewarding for the challenge/risk/time associated with it.  I'd like to see it brought more in line with pretty much every other activity in the game.  I've never heard a reasonable argument for keeping it as-is outside of "anyone can do it" and "I like it". 

While I agree that farming is more rewarding thant SOLOING content, I don't think it is as off kilter as you think. It is true that you can progress REALLY quickly, especially in early levels, but the risk of dying and running up debt does not seem to me to be much less than running three or four DFBs, and you don't level THAT much faster. I have NEVER face planted on one of those.

 

And as much as I like DFB, and I DO. I never did it on my early guys, but now run it on almost all my new toon 2-4 times (to get them past the beginner content that I have done a dozen times), it gets just as monotonous the 19th time as running a fire farm. At least during farming, prior to getting pimped out with set bonuses, you have to monitor your defense to be sure not to let it drop too low and can die if you don't take at least a LITTLE care.

 

 

[AkuTenshiiZero]

6 hours ago, cejmp said:

Playing the game is the reward. Farming is a progression mechanic.

Imagine kids today actually playing a game for the sake of playing it, and not because some glittery meme-laden bullhorn shouting "epic lootz" and shotgun blasting colorful boxes in their face every time they take a step.

[jubakumbi]

15 minutes ago, AkuTenshiiZero said:

Imagine kids today actually playing a game for the sake of playing it, and not because some glittery meme-laden bullhorn shouting "epic lootz" and shotgun blasting colorful boxes in their face every time they take a step.

Most Many of the complainers are my age and have been complaning about this for a couple of decades.

It's nothing new, it has nothing to do with age.

I am 51.

 

Some people play games for a dopamine hit from the enjoyment of playing, others to be social, others to get rewards.

 

Get off MY lawn.

Edited September 25, 2019 by jubakumbi
brush was too big.

[subbacultchas]

TFs and Trials. Yeah AE is really good lower levels, but bads stop being that great in your twenties IMO. Taskforces run with a good team and fast can get level very very quick. That's usually my post 22 levelling run.

[swordchucks]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

If you don't like it, don't do it. Stop trying to ruin other people's fun.

I don't actually care about the experience side of it.  There are relatively fast ways to get xp in other ways.

 

My concern is more with the material rewards (influence, salvage, recipes) that can be earned in the AE and it's effect on the overall economy.  My choosing not to take part in AE farming does nothing to keep the wealth generated there from shaping the economy.  The only thing I've seen that can rival the influence income from high end farm builds was the repeated Hami-zerging, which has been fixed.

 

58 minutes ago, Sunrunner said:

You are more than welcome to walk a non-farmer into a fire farm set to +4/x8. 

I can't hammer in a nail using a fish, either, but that doesn't mean that using a hammer to hammer in a nail is somehow hard.  AE farming (especially fire farming) is a solved equation.  You can find a solid build for it in under an hour (along with a second low-end build for it that you can use to build from).  You can learn everything you need to know about how to do it in a few hours.  I have picked at a farmer a bit and it's not hard as long as you understand the relatively simple mechanics of it and pay some attention.

 

I personally find the activity itself intensely boring, but if you find the activity itself to be fun, more power to you. It's just that it shouldn't reward markedly more influence, salvage, etc., than you can get otherwise.  I am in no way saying that there shouldn't be an option for that kind of content or that it shouldn't give rewards - it's just that it needs to be in line with other content.

 

56 minutes ago, quixoteprog said:

While I agree that farming is more rewarding thant SOLOING content, I don't think it is as off kilter as you think.

My mind can be changed.  What other content has a similar time-to-reward scale?  You can probably run Hami three times in an hour on three different characters, which would provide 240 merits (which converts to 50M-65M influence) but that isn't exactly easy to pull off with the regularity you can pull off fire farming. 

[MunkiLord]

11 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

I don't actually care about the experience side of it.  There are relatively fast ways to get xp in other ways.

 

My concern is more with the material rewards (influence, salvage, recipes) that can be earned in the AE and it's effect on the overall economy.  My choosing not to take part in AE farming does nothing to keep the wealth generated there from shaping the economy.  The only thing I've seen that can rival the influence income from high end farm builds was the repeated Hami-zerging, which has been fixed.

The effect is more supply, which is a good thing. Yes the farmers have more influence, but they either spend it which transfers it to other players, or hoard it, which effectively takes it out of play. Also playing the market is every bit as efficient. I've had over a billion in profit in the last 48 hours. This includes bidding, crafting, converting, and selling. It took maybe two hours of in game time while I was half focused watching TV. Dedicated farmers playing non stop can make more, but they also have to invest significantly more in game time.

[oxmox]

10 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

 

I personally find the activity itself intensely boring, but if you find the activity itself to be fun, more power to you. It's just that it shouldn't reward markedly more influence, salvage, etc., than you can get otherwise.  I am in no way saying that there shouldn't be an option for that kind of content or that it shouldn't give rewards - it's just that it needs to be in line with other content.

 

My mind can be changed.  What other content has a similar time-to-reward scale?  You can probably run Hami three times in an hour on three different characters, which would provide 240 merits (which converts to 50M-65M influence) but that isn't exactly easy to pull off with the regularity you can pull off fire farming. 

What then would you propose as a change? As others have stated in this thread, many of the players are long time veterans who have played through all the game's content multiple times. For them, the main appeal of the game is trying out different power combos and tweaking high end builds. The high xp/inf from farming is pretty important for that, and the game would be a lot less fun for those people without that.

 

Do you suggest increasing the rewards of everything else to match? That kind of screws over players who prefer the normal pacing of the game and are trying to play through storylines rather than hit 50 in 3 hours.

 

I feel like the current system with farming/PLing available but listed as optional content is probably the best compromise for a late life MMO.

[quixoteprog]

40 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

My mind can be changed.  What other content has a similar time-to-reward scale?  You can probably run Hami three times in an hour on three different characters, which would provide 240 merits (which converts to 50M-65M influence) but that isn't exactly easy to pull off with the regularity you can pull off fire farming. 

Read my post. At low levels (1-15?) DFB will get you 2-5 levels in a single run. That is about the same as doing a run of one of the AE fire farm missions. As you go up in level that slows down, for BOTH things. I am not sure if you can SOLO DFB, but that is likely a game restriction. If you could set the difficulty of it the same way you can every other mission, from -1/x1 to +4/x8 then you probably could.

 

The only reason fire farms are so productive is not anything special about AE missions, they are actually nerfed for XP I believe. The big difference is that they have been designed to be just one damage type that you can optimize a character against.  If you find a regular content mission with similar parameters you can "farm" that mission by just getting close to the end and resetting it.

 

Even if they are not optimized for damage type I would assume you can burn through enough orange and purple inspirations to farm anything. Just set the difficulty at what you can take with the build you have.

[Mansome]

Right now I almost exclusively do TFs starting at level 11 going forward. Nothing else rewarding enough for the time investment. Once the game becomes legit I might come consider grinding out missions to get my badge character finished out.

[swordchucks]

So... activity X should give twice the rewards of other activities because... the people that do it want more rewards?  And everyone else should get half those rewards because they... wouldn't want more rewards?  I'm not entirely sure how that argument works.

 

As for the supply/demand argument, that's essentially saying that the entire economy should be based around farmers.  It kind of is right now, but is that really a good thing?

 

55 minutes ago, quixoteprog said:

Read my post.

I am not talking about xp.  You can get a character to 50 in three hours while door sitting and I can get one to 50 in ten hours doing other stuff.  Maybe fifteen, depending on what I'm doing.  I don't really care about that difference.

 

What I'm specifically asking about is in terms of material rewards (influence/salvage).  The most profitable activity I'm aware of outside of AE is "first run of the day" Hami runs which require a fresh 50 every time and quite a few friends to make happen.  Even then, that's limited to one run per day per character and takes at least fifteen minutes per run, more if Hami doesn't appear right away or there are organization issues or someone causes a double bloom too early.

[MunkiLord]

Just now, swordchucks said:

So... activity X should give twice the rewards of other activities because... the people that do it want more rewards?  And everyone else should get half those rewards because they... wouldn't want more rewards?  I'm not entirely sure how that argument works.

 

As for the supply/demand argument, that's essentially saying that the entire economy should be based around farmers.  It kind of is right now, but is that really a good thing?I

More supply is unequivocally a good thing. 

[DR_Mechano]

News flash, all MMO auctions houses are based around farmers, farmers provide the items, marketeers sell them, people buy them. If there were no farmers, marketeers would have nothing to sell and what little there was that got onto the market would have its prices skyrocket. It just so happens that in this game farmers and marketeers are one and the same since there's a guide on how to make money right on this very forums.

Edited September 25, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Black Zot]

9 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

News flash, all MMO auctions houses are based around farmers, farmers provide the items, marketeers sell them, people buy them. If there were no farmers, marketeers would have nothing to sell and what little there was that got onto the market would have its prices skyrocket. It just so happens that in this game farmers and marketeers are one and the same since there's a guide on how to make money right on this very forums.

 

About time someone pointed out the family of elephants playing cards around the coffee table.  Without farmers, trying to make a decent IO build would be a lost cause, because the supply of goods to make said build from either would exist but cost half the inf cap to buy, or wouldn't exist at all.  Hell, even with the rampant farming on live, good luck getting more than the most dirt-cheap stuff without a farmer toon of your own.

 

CoX's economy is currently in a better state than I've ever seen ANY game economy, and farmers are a big part of why it stays that way.  Take your nerfs and shove them.

[Marine X]

4 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

Some people play games for a dopamine hit from the enjoyment of playing, others to be social, others to get rewards.

I play mostly Solo, and usually don't get great rewards, but I get punched in the face a lot with no long term repercussions, SWEET!

Edited September 25, 2019 by Marine X