Tough & Weave needed?

[FatherCronos]

Hi all - coming back to the game from pre-shutdown, so i'm a little rusty on builds.  But i'm seeing alot of tank builds with both tough and weave taken - is this necessary to be considered a "good" tank?  I'm all for extra defense or whatever they provide, but wondering if you could still tank without them, and still get that "unkillable" vibe.  Specifically i'm playing a rad/rad...but my previous was a stone/stone tank, and he was def unkillable.  Couldn't kill much himself, but tough as nails.

 

Thoughts?  

[Redlynne]

Heh ... I just addressed this topic in the context of Scrappers ...

 

My opinion on the matter is that the Fighting pool is NOT "needed" (per se) to achieve those high performance levels, but a lot of people reach for it because ... a lot of people reach for it.  It's also very simplistic in the "Just Do This" sense, so people take the path of least resistance and don't question it all that much.  It's easy to explain and "obvious" how your build benefits, so that's the end of it ... right?

 

However, if you take a longer/broader view of things, I'm of the opinion that the Fighting pool is only better for soloists ... but you can get comparable (and possibly even better!) performance out of the Leadership pool.  Click the link provided above for why I make that assertion and how it can possibly be true even for Scrappers with their "worst among Archetypes" buff strength from the Leadership pool.

 

Also, if you look at pretty much any of the builds I post in these forums, you'll almost never see the Fighting pool in them, but quite often you'll find the Leadership pool.  There's a reason for that ...

[MrAxe]

While leveling they tend to be excellent choices. When you hit 50 and if you want to make an expensive IO set build, it really depends on that particular build. You may get enough set bonuses to ignore both powers like I have.

 

The only real draw back is if you have a very End heavy build, 2 toggles may be a bit much until you sort out that issue.

[FatherCronos]

Interesting read Redlynne, i'll definitely have to check that out.  I may see how Rad/rad fares without either and get a sense of end usage & survivability before i go for one.  And depending if I want to min/max defenses.  To me, it started to feel like the fitness pool, everyone went for it because it was that good.  But glad to know there's still options with these.

 

Thanks all!

[Hyperstrike]

I have several builds of tank that have Tough, but leave it turned off as it's merely a set mule at that point.
It does mean we have to dedicate more slots in search of Defense bonuses that'd normally be spackled over by Weave.

But it's still QUITE possible to bring together a build that just lays the smack down.


 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

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Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(3), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(3), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(5), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(7)
Level 1: Jab -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg:50(7), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(9), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(9), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%:50(11)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(13), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(13), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(15)
Level 4: Haymaker -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg:50(19), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(19), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb:50(23)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 8: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(23), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(25), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(25)
Level 10: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%:50(A)
Level 12: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(27), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(27), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(29)
Level 14: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(29), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(31), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(31)
Level 16: Combat Jumping -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(31), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(33), Rct-ResDam%:50(33)
Level 18: Invincibility -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(34), ShlWal-Def/Rchg:50(34), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(34)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(37), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(37)
Level 22: Hover -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(37), ShlWal-Def/Rchg:50(39), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(39)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(40), ShlWal-Def/Rchg:50(40), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 30: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 32: Recall Friend -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB:50(A)
Level 35: Hurl -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(43), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc:50(43)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(46)
Level 41: Char -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold:50(A), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg:50(46), SprEnt-End/Rchg:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg:50(48), SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc:50(50)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(50), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50)
Level 47: Fly -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB:50(A)
Level 49: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB:50(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(15), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(17)
------------

 

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[Ankhammon]

Sometimes it just depends on your outlook. 

 

For instance the tier 9 on Dark/ and Fire/ mean basically that you shouldn't have to take tough/weave. A self rez that goes boom or has a severe stun is enough in many situations to take control.

I take both of those asap and love em. debt's never all that much in this game and there are still ways around it if you want or need to make it go away. 

[Odhinn]

Tough and Weave really depend on the build and character you are going for.  My  Invul/SS/ has neither as he is capped on S/L resist. He does have leadership and is an extremely expensive build.  My Bio Armor tank does have them though he only turns on Tough if it is needed he usually has Weave running.

 

In the case of Rad/Rad taking a quick look it with Mid's it seems that when everything is slotted with 3 basic IOs ( I use this as a baseline ) S/L resist is around 47% and with tough it goes to 71%. S/L is the most common type of damage in the game though other types get more common in the later game. Still having that extra resist leaves with more HP for that Psi attack.

 

Weave gives the same defense as Combat Jumping and Maneuvers combined.

 

I completely recognize that Rad has other mitigation as well but I would take tough if making a Rad/* tank myself. I will add that I hate having to take the (to me) useless puch or kick though.

[Major_Decoy]

I got to level 43 without tough on my radiation/radiation tank, but it was actually when teaming that I regretted not having it. I felt a bit like a regeneration tank, going down to red in each alpha strike and hoping  I'd live long enough for my heal to work.

[Heraclea]

There are several scrappers I wouldn't bother taking it on, and I don't see a whole lot of point on sentinels or stalkers either.  Never not taken them on a tanker though.  I rather dislike the set, in that both Boxing and Kick are of no value as attacks and trying to use them actually hurts weapon sets.

[Hyperstrike]

7 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

I got to level 43 without tough on my radiation/radiation tank, but it was actually when teaming that I regretted not having it. I felt a bit like a regeneration tank, going down to red in each alpha strike and hoping  I'd live long enough for my heal to work.

On a Tank?  Capping, or near-capping S/L Resist shouldn't be that difficult on a Rad Armor Tank.
 

[Seigmoraig]

4 hours ago, Heraclea said:

There are several scrappers I wouldn't bother taking it on, and I don't see a whole lot of point on sentinels or stalkers either.  Never not taken them on a tanker though.  I rather dislike the set, in that both Boxing and Kick are of no value as attacks and trying to use them actually hurts weapon sets.

Kick/Boxing does have some value as IO set mule though, the classic 4pc Kinetic Combat in particular

Edited October 10, 2019 by Seigmoraig

[Major_Decoy]

5 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

On a Tank?  Capping, or near-capping S/L Resist shouldn't be that difficult on a Rad Armor Tank.
 

Probably not, but I haven't gotten around to an IO build yet. I started just frankenslotting. At some point, I'll get around to making more full build, but at this time I'm just not there. But every time I do something exemplared below 40, I kind of regret the lack of tough.

[Haijinx]

I take tough and weave on every single character i play.  

 

While some could reach specific goals through a lot of set bonuses, i find that I usually have more power picks than I need and not enough slots. 

 

Tough and weave generally let me use less slots than trying to do the same thing with sets 

[Myrmidon]

I tend to make use of both Fighting and Leadership on nearly all of my melee builds. It makes building much easier and less expensive on both slots and IOS.

[Khenal]

I personally really like tough.  I could do IOs for the resist, but tough is simple to deal with and gives a good bit of resist.  I really don't like weave, though.  It's expensive as crap for endurance and gives 5% defense base.  I'd rather have the endurance.

[WumpusRat]

11 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

I tend to make use of both Fighting and Leadership on nearly all of my melee builds. It makes building much easier and less expensive on both slots and IOS.

Same here. The extra resists and defense means I can look around for some other set bonuses I might have to forgo otherwise, and opens up slotting a lot more.

[WumpusRat]

14 minutes ago, Khenal said:

I personally really like tough.  I could do IOs for the resist, but tough is simple to deal with and gives a good bit of resist.  I really don't like weave, though.  It's expensive as crap for endurance and gives 5% defense base.  I'd rather have the endurance.

It has the same endurance cost as tough. And with just 2-3 slots you can get it up to 7% defense, which is a pretty huge jump. If you're not looking to get a lot out of defense though, you could skip it.

[Khenal]

Just now, WumpusRat said:

It has the same endurance cost as tough. And with just 2-3 slots you can get it up to 7% defense, which is a pretty huge jump. If you're not looking to get a lot out of defense though, you could skip it.

Yes, but I find defense to be much simpler to get in IOs.  I could run weave with its massive end cost, or I could run combat jumping and pick up practically any IO def set bonus for s/l defense.  Sure, if someone can only get to 40%, weave is amazing.  But in my experience, it's been better to ditch weave and just commit to slotting for s/l def set bonuses.

[WumpusRat]

8 minutes ago, Khenal said:

Yes, but I find defense to be much simpler to get in IOs.  I could run weave with its massive end cost, or I could run combat jumping and pick up practically any IO def set bonus for s/l defense.  Sure, if someone can only get to 40%, weave is amazing.  But in my experience, it's been better to ditch weave and just commit to slotting for s/l def set bonuses.

I'm curious what you're slotting into CJ to get you extra defense. Because none of the defense sets have a S/L +defense set bonus. 

 

<edit> Maybe I'm just reading what you wrote in a way you didn't intend though, after reading it several more times. But yes, you can build your slotting specifically towards S/L def, but it limits you to what you're able to effectively engage. My Inv/SS tanker right now has about 45% S/L def, and 35-40% to everything else. With the bonus def from invincibility, she's basically capped against anything but psi. And a good chunk of that comes from weave and maneuvers. I run about 7 toggles, and have no end problems at all unless I run into multiple sappers.

Edited October 12, 2019 by WumpusRat

[Khenal]

 

5 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

I'm curious what you're slotting into CJ to get you extra defense. Because none of the defense sets have a S/L +defense set bonus. 

Not slotting into CJ, slotting other stuff.  Kinetic Combat, Unbreakable Guard, and Obliteration net a ton of s/l defense, enough to take my fire/mace to the soft cap with a few other minor sets.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Khenal
typo

[WumpusRat]

2 minutes ago, Khenal said:

 

Not slotting into CJ, slotting other stuff.  Kinetic Combat, Unbreakable Guard, and Obliterate net a ton of s/l defense, enough to take my fire/mace to the soft cap with a few other minor sets.

Yeah, I re-read it (several times) and realized what you were saying. S/L def is nice, but I like covering more bases. Just my own taste when it comes to defense. Especially for a tanker. I want to be able to march up to ANYONE and laugh in their face, rather than certain enemies being able to smack me. 🙂

[Khenal]

2 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

Yeah, I re-read it (several times) and realized what you were saying. S/L def is nice, but I like covering more bases. Just my own taste when it comes to defense. Especially for a tanker. I want to be able to march up to ANYONE and laugh in their face, rather than certain enemies being able to smack me. 🙂

Which is fair, heh.  A great majority of attacks have some s/l component, and so s/l defense works on the entire attack.  I'm fine with most, partially because I am a fire tank.  "Close enough" gets me enough survival time to KO most of the incoming damage.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Khenal
more typo

[Myrmidon]

46 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

I run about 7 toggles, and have no end problems at all unless I run into multiple sappers.

You can pretty much ignore Sappers if you have capped Energy defense. 😁

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Khenal said:

I personally really like tough.  I could do IOs for the resist, but tough is simple to deal with and gives a good bit of resist.  I really don't like weave, though.  It's expensive as crap for endurance and gives 5% defense base.  I'd rather have the endurance.

Miracle, Numina and Panacea procs will cover most End issues, then it’s just adding some set bonuses.

[Hyperstrike]

On 10/12/2019 at 4:46 AM, Khenal said:

I personally really like tough.  I could do IOs for the resist, but tough is simple to deal with and gives a good bit of resist.  I really don't like weave, though.  It's expensive as crap for endurance and gives 5% defense base.  I'd rather have the endurance.

 

A funny sentiment. 

Stealth costs identically and delivers half the protection.
Maneuvers costs more and delivers less than half the protection.
Hover costs less, but delivers half the protection.
CJ costs next to nothing and delivers defense identical to Hover.
Invincibility costs less and delivers 6% to start...
Tough Hide is an outlier.
Shield armors cost less and deliver more defense on a single-vector basis...

Weave is actually pretty decent for what it does.  Flat 5% on ALL Defense types and vectors.