New Archtype: The Incarnate

[Haijinx]

The core principle of designing ATs should be not displacing the ones you already have.  

 

 

[Zepp]

There will be so many power conflicts that even if there was some way to do this in a reasonable manner that it would have so many exclusions that it would be insane...

[Steampunkette]

2 hours ago, Cooltastic said:

I'm going to feed off of Steamy a bit and agree that the concept is a good one. I also like it as a Vet 100 reward, brings back some of that flair the game had on live, now that Khelds and VEATs are free from the get go.(Which was a damn good choice I might add, as I got to recreate my main right away.) 

 

We just have to come together and figure out the best way to implement it. So here's my thoughts.

 

     First we can't have people running around with Fire Armor/Fire Armor(Burn baby Burn!) To fix this, when choosing a Primary, certain secondaries become locked. If you choose and an Armor Primary, all Armor Secondaries are locked. If you choose Support Primary, all Support Secondaries are locked. But if you want to go Damage/Damage I don't see a huge problem with it other than gimping your survivability for the chance at unique concept builds(Like Dual Blades/Dual Pistols.)

 

     Secondly, I'd like to submit another idea for The Incarnate's(Might need a diff name) Inherent Ability. What if the Inherent gave the player 4 toggles at start. You could only have 1 of these toggles active at any time. The First would be The Titan(toggling this on increases your HP, Regen, DamRes, Def, and offers you Good Mez Prot/Mez Res.) The Second would be The Destroyer(toggling this on increases your Acc, Dam, Recharge, and offers MINIMAL Mez Prot/Mez Res.) The Third would be The Savior(toggling this on increases your Healing, Buffing and Debuffing Str, grants a constant regen aura that effects yourself and teammates, and offers MINIMAL Mez Res only.) The Fourth would be The Subjugator(toggling this on increases the duration of all control abilities, grants a 50% chance to Crit Mez'd enemies above 50% Health and a 100% chance to Crit Mez'd enemies under 50% Health, and offers MINIMAL Mez Res only.)

 

Now you we have a rewarding Archetype that offers better customization and get's the ability to fill any role they desire. 

 

Edited: Just realized we would probably need some sort of pet mastermind toggle also. So 5 toggles to choose from. 

Two big things: 

 

1) If someone playing this AT wanted Mez Protections they could choose a defensive powerset and get mez protection. No reason to tie it to the inherent.

 

2) Stance toggles are neat and all, but there's no player-function that applies to pets. It would also probably be a swift path to "Replacing" all other characters if the Archetype can fulfill any role at full power.

 

The AT's weakness could be it's strength if the scalars are set to 1. It'd be all around solid, rather than "Good at X when toggle Y is active"

[Cooltastic]

38 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Two big things: 

 

1) If someone playing this AT wanted Mez Protections they could choose a defensive powerset and get mez protection. No reason to tie it to the inherent.

 

2) Stance toggles are neat and all, but there's no player-function that applies to pets. It would also probably be a swift path to "Replacing" all other characters if the Archetype can fulfill any role at full power.

 

The AT's weakness could be it's strength if the scalars are set to 1. It'd be all around solid, rather than "Good at X when toggle Y is active"

Ah yes, both good points.

 

Hmm... yes I guess I didn't think the toggles out fully. There's a lot of sets to keep in mind. What if the toggles were less impactful, because I still think they would make for a good inherent. Titan toggle could just get Extra HP that would bring it up to tank/brute levels, or close to it. The Destroyer toggle could just be a Recharge buff. The Savior toggle could just get the Regen Aura. The Subjugator toggle could just get the crit chance vs mez'd enemies.

 

A better way to implement these might be to only get 2 toggles no matter what. Say you pick an armor set and a support set. You would only receive the Titan and Savior toggles to switch between. Just shooting off ideas.

[Steampunkette]

Inherents can't be tied to what powersets you choose. Inherents are part of the AT itself.

 

As to bringing up HP: Where are the AT's Caps? If they're set to the default, like I suggest, a +HP Toggle that gives you brute/tanker HP would render things like Dull Pain completely moot because you'd be basically at the HP Cap with just the toggle.

 

I really think the AT's core functions should be very generic and broadly useful, to allow the powerset choice combinations to be what shines.

 

Also Support and Defense sets would need to be made mutually exclusive. A Willpower/Empath would have no ability to deal damage outside of Brawl (and any temp powers picked up, but still).

 

Support/Defense, Melee/Melee, Defense/Defense, Support/Support, Control/Control, etc. All duplicates would need to be cut off at the knees. It would also be an AT that couldn't have access to Ancillary Power Pools of any kind, 'cause it would have access to literally every power in the game. There'd be no way to make the Patron Power Pools all available because of naming issues, I think? So better to just nix it altogether.

[nihilii]

There is no possible way to implement a suggestion allowing this level of versatility without ending with one of two scenarios:

1) implementation balances top performing combos to be on par with the rest of the game, making anything but the top performing combos nigh useless

2) implementation balances around anything but the top performing combos, making the top performing combos so powerful there is no point playing anything else

 

1) would make the suggestion pointless. 2) would make tw/bio scrappers look like emp/dual pistols defenders..

[Murcielago]

21 hours ago, magicjtv said:

Well, I'm not convinced by balance arguments because the game is already unbalanced. Really unbalanced.

 

But if the game engine can't support removing DR for one archetype, that's the end of the idea. So we've dropped the "no DR" idea and now we're talking about an AT that can have any primary and any secondary.

So if I'm reading this right, lets take an already unbalanced game and make it even more unbalanced. Nice

[Steampunkette]

34 minutes ago, nihilii said:

There is no possible way to implement a suggestion allowing this level of versatility without ending with one of two scenarios:

1) implementation balances top performing combos to be on par with the rest of the game, making anything but the top performing combos nigh useless

2) implementation balances around anything but the top performing combos, making the top performing combos so powerful there is no point playing anything else

 

1) would make the suggestion pointless. 2) would make tw/bio scrappers look like emp/dual pistols defenders..

I think we'd actually be in option 3 territory.

 

3) Because it's damage values are lower than a Scrappers (at Scale 1 instead of 1.12) and it doesn't have Brute Fury, if you want a TW/Bio character there are better choices out there.

 

The "Top Performing" set combos for this thing would be pretty much the same as any other archetype, but not actually -THAT- good because it would lack the inherent support to increase damage output or the HP levels of a brute/tank that allow it to survive extended periods in melee.

 

What combos, really, would be outliers beyond the outliers that already exist in the game? (Melee)/Kinetics? Okay, but you're going into melee with no defenses beyond Tough/Weave/Combat Jumping/Maneuvers... 

 

Ultimately the AT would let you play with combos that don't exist elsewhere in the game. Like Assault or Manipulation as a primary powerset. But any combo you create is going to have some weaknesses compared to all the other archetypes.

 

An Assault/Defense character would get some ranged, some melee, and thus have a slightly higher survival chance than your average Scrapper in a given fight but lack Alpha potential due to not having the big "Superior" and/or "Extreme" damage attack that Scrappers get in their sets.

 

And you -could- try to build a Magetank by doing Defense/Ranged... but you'd lack a taunt, would have mediocre aggro-generation based on damage output, and wouldn't have the HP of an actual Tanker or Brute. So you'd get more survival than a Defense/Melee Incarnate, but you still wouldn't -really- be a Tank.

[nihilii]

I'm merely naming tw/bio scrappers to pick one of the most broken builds and argue we'd reach new levels of brokenness beyond that. There is indeed no point in making a tw/bio not-scrapper with this suggestion.

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

I'm merely naming tw/bio scrappers to pick one of the most broken builds and argue we'd reach new levels of brokenness beyond that. There is indeed no point in making a tw/bio not-scrapper with this suggestion.

Sure. But what combos -would- be broken in this design (assuming standard and no damage and same-role exclusivity is in place)?

 

What could this archetype do that would be 'broken' compared to any other archetype doing anything similar?

 

The only thing I could imagine would be Support/Control, assuming all powersets were made available for both primary and secondary. Because that would result in Defender-Level buffing while still having Controller Level -power- in the Controls, but not duration. Even that doesn't seem particularly strong, all things considered...

 

We'd have to make it, though, so that Pet powersets (Both MM and Illusion) would need to be Primary-Exclusive. There's no character-function we can apply to reduce the power of pets, which are NPCs with their own statistics determined by their level independent of the player.

[skoryy]

17 hours ago, Cooltastic said:

We just have to come together and figure out the best way to implement it.

As someone who writes code professionally...

[Haijinx]

This is devolving from a bad idea into game stat porn. 

 

 

[FDR's Think Tank]

If you are gonna give players the ability to create Arch-Foe type characters, you have to create a corresponding set of critical weaknesses/kryptonites they have to contend with. It could be a self stun after an alpha strike, it could be a glaring elemental weakness, it could be a cumulative chance to attract the ire of enemy organizations during battle, creating a critical time element. Sorta like the Nebulas for the Kheldians, but something player characters may be able exploit with the right cleverness or luck. But that's just my opinion. This game isn't especially competitive, so you can get away with broken stuff for longer than you can in other MMOS.

 

This sounds really fun, just for the flexibility... and as I remember it, some of the Game Devs had special characters with unconventional powerset arrangements. Manticore, from what I heard, was able to use Archery as his primary and Trick Arrows as his secondary, even though he was a Defender. Some Legacy players may have remembered his battle cry when some of the major events were going on and he was playing live. I won't repeat it here.

 

I will say, I am frightened by the idea of someone pairing a Mastermind's Pet Power with the Controller Illusion Set and flooding the screen with hordes of pets. You could be a One Man Army! However, if that's the most obnoxious result of this endeavor, I can live with that. I am not even certain if that's possible with what you outlined, since those are technically two Power Sets that are only currently available as Primary Power Sets. Most of the power sets aren't as clearly defined as "Primary Only" as those two. I saw People already addressed the issue with duplicate Secondaries functions.... no Double armor builds!

 

As to the issue with Farming your way to level 100, you could always also require a certain amount of badges, or require the player reach level 100 and have completed a set number/selection of major story threads, It's not like you can stop the farming, but you don't have to leave in a perverse incentive to do it that way specifically.

 

As to the issue with "Top Performing Combos" I have a different solution to rebalancing all the power sets. Phase out old NPC mob types and introduce new types that are specifically tailored to deal with overplayed combos. If you spread it out over the five Origin types with the most popular Origin Type getting the Most Popular Counter Mob, and then going round robin from there, you can keep players engaged in the game and trying different toons out. You can rotate certain mobs back in, eventually, if you get a metagame chase going. This is somewhat similar to the Kheldian hunters, but its not like they haven't changed mobs in mass before. I suppose it would need to be divided by level category as well. The amount of this that is actually done can also be balanced against how critically dire the imbalance is. No point in doing anything about it if the only people who notice are the MinMaxers.

 

The game really is ripe for more Prestige Archetypes now that they don't have the company being hypercritical of all attempts to come up with something. It's a downside that they don't have a team working on graphics, but the special archetypes are mostly power set rearrangements and very subtle team buffs anyway. It's definitely not impossible to create new combinations of existing powers/power sets that give players a new playstyle.

 

Special/Prestige Archetypes we dream of:

 

-Praetorians- We need an excuse to return to and even start new characters in Rogue other than anti-social tendencies. The stories are fun and they have lots of hidden gems and split choices. You can't make Kheldians or Arachnos in Praetor for obvious reasons... 

 

~Praetorian Loyalist- A Loyalist Elite Trooper with equipment to put him on par with Powers Division Forces. They have power lockouts, energy armor, clockwork pets, and various energy blasters... within the range of how you built it. Capture Brutes and Netgunner Captains.

~Praetorian Resistance- A Resistance Subversive who deals in blackmarket tech and homemade ordinance. They have disruptive AoE, defense that keeps them mobile/stealth, hacked clockwork pets, and various firearms. Saboteurs and Stealth Snipers.

~Praetorian Hamidonoid- An unusual Hamidon Mutant that has developed independence for the purposes of infiltration. Hamidoniods have access to a wide variety of elemental/nature powers making them each unique and difficult to predict.

 

 

-Ourobos/Nemesis Soldier- Why should Arachnos get all the fun? Steampunk Hessian Soldiers? Check. Poison Gas weapons to violate International Treaties? Double Check. Strange Anagrams and other Cryptic References to Sinister Intentions? Spoiler Alert. Time Tricksters and Toxic Troopers.

 

 

-Giant Size Archetype- This might be better off as a Power Pool powerset, but I will throw it out there anyway. Sure, we can have characters that are 8 Feet Tall.... but there are a HUGE number of HUGE Superheroes. I get it, these powers don't work indoors, and that cuts out about half the game. On the otherhand, even if they only go 1/2 as big or 1/4 as big indoors getting locked out of the true strength of the archetype for tight quarters missions, you can still have fun trying to USE the powers effectively in the areas where you have room to grow. It's kinda like a built in weakness... and the characters do really well in open space. Of course, this is all coming from a gushing player's perspective. It's important to acknowledge to two big problems with Super Growth powers. First, it would be difficult to balance with the game world and mission system. Secondly, It could be truly obnoxious having players run around with giant characters in game. Perhaps the difficulty of carrying a character who is only useful half the time would make the Giant Characters in a Super Group a sort of flex on what the team can pull off and the sacrifice everyone made to get there. You could also give them a negative "There's only room for one" ability that limits Giant Growth to one per team. Maybe you could have a Giant Size Archetype that can get VERY big.... and a Giant Power Pool set that is similar to concealment (Only one active) and is only tall enough to get trapped in two floor indoor spaces if they don't shrink back. In my mind, Giants would get large hitpoint bonuses, but are also much easier to hit, with a weakness for critical hits. Their attacks would have the extended range appropriate to their size and gain AoE/expand existing AoE, but would be easier to dodge, since their movements are telegraphed to everyone. There are lots of ways to explore this, but I don't know the limitations since I remember the NCSoft team being especially vague about why THEY didn't want to try to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[That Ninja]

Ironically this is similar to what Incarnates were supposed to be way back when, being a super AT instead of unlocking new powers for existing characters.

[Steampunkette]

I dunno... For the longest time I was against an "Any Powerset Combo" character concept because of the inherent risk of self-nerfing into the ground. The issue that people might unintentionally take two powersets that are so -violently- terrible with each other that they'd destroy their ability to play or enjoy the game.

 

But on the other hand, tying it to Vet Level 100 or some other "Play the game for a certain amount of time" function reduces the chances of such an occurrence down to "Vanishingly Rare"

 

Yeah. Someone who has never played City before might jump on a "Vet level 100 Farm" team and spend literal -days- getting powereleveled all the way up through the Veteran Ranks in order to unlock the new AT... But that seems like something entirely unreasonable to presume at this point.

 

So I definitely feel like "Set Scalars to the high end of Average and give them a 15% recharge inherent and a pat on the ass as they head out into the world" is a reasonable setup.

[MetaVileTerror]

Could always lock it behind Badges instead of level, so there is an active component involved instead of just passive farming in one mission over-and-over.  A spread of Badges, such as the Accomplishment Badges for various missions at multiple different level ranges, and perhaps a few Achievement Badges.  The sort of metrics that do a better job of determining if someone has experienced the game, rather than just levelled up.

[Steampunkette]

19 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Could always lock it behind Badges instead of level, so there is an active component involved instead of just passive farming in one mission over-and-over.  A spread of Badges, such as the Accomplishment Badges for various missions at multiple different level ranges, and perhaps a few Achievement Badges.  The sort of metrics that do a better job of determining if someone has experienced the game, rather than just levelled up.

Locking it behind badges just changes how people farm it. They hit level 50 through farms, then get dragged through badge missions in Oroborous or Mob-farm out in Crey's Folly or wherever...

 

I think putting it behind vet level 100, or even vet level 50, would work just fine. I don't forsee many players who don't know anything about the game getting invited into endless farms where they doorsit at 50 while the Spines/Fire runs off. 

 

It just seems like way too much time investment for a farmer to spend improving someone else's character and leaving them stranded with all sorts of choices and no information.