How to fix Electric blast

[Leogunner]

On 10/24/2019 at 3:23 PM, Frostweaver said:

yeah, but -end on a defender is actually a useful effect. We are not expecting to kill ANYTHING in less than 12 seconds, so sucking them dry to the point where they mostly brawl is a decent debuff to protect your team.

Defenders don't really have that much problem with electric blast(except maybe wishing that it had more debuffs for better slotting options). It's Blasters That don't know how crappy the set performs at high levels that feel the shaft when they have sunk the time to get to 30+

The sniper changes improved things a little compared to sets without snipes, So electric isn't completely crappy anymore, but it's still considerably behind the lowest-performing alternatives.

To be completely honest, I wouldn't even mind if they ignored electric blast on defenders/corrupters as long as they helped blasters. Even though my 'main' is a time/elec defender.

If a set happens to function better for one AT over another, then I say you have a successful powerset. So long as the AT that gets all the mileage doesn't overshadow another in their specialized niche, it's all good. 

 

That a Defender or debuff oriented build uses electric blast's effects better than an offensive oriented AT its not actually a problem until said Defender or debuff oriented builds start outperforming Blasters in offense. 

 

If changes are being made to the set, it should be aimed at what makes the set different... Like it's the only set with a mini-pet so maybe improvements to that. 

[Crysta Clear]

If Voltaic Sentinel didn't suck, I would even consider taking it. There is a very efficient defense set in the pet section, with 3.75% to two positionals.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

If Voltaic Sentinel didn't suck, I would even consider taking it. There is a very efficient defense set in the pet section, with 3.75% to two positionals.

If it lasted as long as the Dark Defender pet, that would make me happy. As of now, it's not even worth the time that it takes to cast it.

[Frostweaver]

6 hours ago, Leogunner said:

If a set happens to function better for one AT over another, then I say you have a successful powerset. So long as the AT that gets all the mileage doesn't overshadow another in their specialized niche, it's all good.

See, I disagree. The reason the set is tolerable for defenders is because on a Defender like Time, My primary takes so much of my attention that I seldom get any meaningful use out of my secondary.
A powerset that utterly sucks like electric is therefore only a minor inconvenience... The secondary effect, as a defender, is vastly more important to me than the damage, because I usually have a team around me doing damage which my piddling efforts would barely influence. If I had taken dark, would have done it for the -to-hit. And I would NEVER take a set like Fire on a defender, because it's damage, while better, is STILL going to suck with defender's base. Like Tankers, Defenders are not really designed to LEAN heavily on their primary for survival/contributions.

So a set that has a useful effect for a certain subset that barely uses it but is utterly trash for another is NOT a 'successful powerset'. Especially when only certain primaries can get any value out of the effect (Bubbles, thermal, sonic, traps, etc have absolutely NO value they can draw from endurance drain, there is nothing complementary in their primary to synergize with it, and they lean on their secondary more than some).

 

[Itikar]

What I don't get about electric blast is why the fact it damages endurance is paired with, in general, a lower damage on its attacks, whereas other sets that carry debuffs do not suffer from this. Or at least they do not suffer of this to the same extent.

 

Compare blackstar on corruptor in mids with thunderous blast:

- thunderous blast reduces endurance of 55.5% and has a base non-scourge damage of 166.8

- blackstar reduces to-hit of 66.6% and has a base non-scourge damage of 227.5

 

Is endurance drain a better debuff than reducing to-hit? I don't think so, as to-hit is effective immediately, while endurance drain requires supplemental drain to achieve the same benefit, i.e. shutting down a mob for a little while.

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 10/24/2019 at 2:03 PM, Communistpenguin said:

So my pov on this is a bit biased, since i play elec as a defender secondary. So im not expecting to kill things quickly. So for me the -end and -end recovery are more useful than a random chance of my blast hitting another target for less damage. I need consistent effects. With end drain i can lockdown a troublesome boss long enough to defeat it. 

Or you could just take ice, deal more damage, and have two holds to lock down the boss. Ice also has more proc opportunities, in addition to dealing more damage.

 

Electric Blast needs its damage upped, period. It's t9 nuke deals less damage than it should and has a longer recharge than it should. Compare it to either the PBAE or ranged nukes and it's clearly operating on the wrong damage scalar. Tesla Cage should also deal meaningful damage, like it does on the Sentinel. And volt sentinel needs to not be pure garbage.

 

In addition, end drain should get the benefits of AT scaling. Right now a defender drains the same amount as a blaster. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

3 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

See, I disagree. The reason the set is tolerable for defenders is because on a Defender like Time, My primary takes so much of my attention that I seldom get any meaningful use out of my secondary.
A powerset that utterly sucks like electric is therefore only a minor inconvenience... The secondary effect, as a defender, is vastly more important to me than the damage, because I usually have a team around me doing damage which my piddling efforts would barely influence. If I had taken dark, would have done it for the -to-hit. And I would NEVER take a set like Fire on a defender, because it's damage, while better, is STILL going to suck with defender's base. Like Tankers, Defenders are not really designed to LEAN heavily on their primary for survival/contributions.

So a set that has a useful effect for a certain subset that barely uses it but is utterly trash for another is NOT a 'successful powerset'. Especially when only certain primaries can get any value out of the effect (Bubbles, thermal, sonic, traps, etc have absolutely NO value they can draw from endurance drain, there is nothing complementary in their primary to synergize with it, and they lean on their secondary more than some).

 

You drain the same amount as a blaster though. Dark offers more safety, and more damage. Plus, on a busy set, you want high damage per second of animation, which electric blast fails hard at.

[Troo]

On 10/22/2019 at 10:00 AM, Bossk_Hogg said:

So electric blasters should just suck it up that their nuke recharges almost 50% longer for 16% more damage? And has a crappier secondary effect? And 75% of the range of the other ranged nukes. And costs 50% more endurance?

That's part of the variety isn't it?

I don't think every set should be the same.

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

See, I disagree. The reason the set is tolerable for defenders is because on a Defender like Time, My primary takes so much of my attention that I seldom get any meaningful use out of my secondary.
A powerset that utterly sucks like electric is therefore only a minor inconvenience... The secondary effect, as a defender, is vastly more important to me than the damage, because I usually have a team around me doing damage which my piddling efforts would barely influence. If I had taken dark, would have done it for the -to-hit. And I would NEVER take a set like Fire on a defender, because it's damage, while better, is STILL going to suck with defender's base. Like Tankers, Defenders are not really designed to LEAN heavily on their primary for survival/contributions.

 

You're excellently proving my point. Fire blast on a Defender will be inherently worse because it is a damage set that has no utility secondary effect. The same goes for any other blast set like that (archery) or with a niche use utility like -regen (beam). Sets with more utility or defensive debuffs will shine on Defender more. Sonic blast is another elephant. It doesn't outright overshadow a blaster but it can work the proper powers and team. 

 

The same thing happens with the melee. Some sets shine on certain ATs or stink on others. Regardless, those sets tend to have unique aspects that broaden what the AT can do in exchange for the lower power. That's balance. 

[Troo]

56 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Or you could just take ice, deal more damage, and have two holds to lock down the boss...

I guess one could just take a different set as well. Just sayin 😉

[Bossk_Hogg]

22 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

You're excellently proving my point. Fire blast on a Defender will be inherently worse because it is a damage set that has no utility secondary effect. The same goes for any other blast set like that (archery) or with a niche use utility like -regen (beam). Sets with more utility or defensive debuffs will shine on Defender more. Sonic blast is another elephant. It doesn't outright overshadow a blaster but it can work the proper powers and team. 

 

The same thing happens with the melee. Some sets shine on certain ATs or stink on others. Regardless, those sets tend to have unique aspects that broaden what the AT can do in exchange for the lower power. That's balance. 

Do you not understand? The secondary effect is the same across all AT's. On defender you just have shitty damage AND a shitty secondary that doesnt really impact 99% of fights. Fire blast at least has "less shitty" damage. Electric blast shines on really no AT. It's passable on sentinels thanks to the adjustments to fixing thunderous blast and tesla cage, and blasters with select secondaries. 

 

What level are your electric blast Blasters, defenders and corrupters?

Edited October 27, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Bossk_Hogg]

27 minutes ago, Troo said:

That's part of the variety isn't it?

I don't think every set should be the same.

Variety isn't just making one attack worse than all it's analogues because the original devs hated lightning. There's a damage formula. T blast doesn't follow it for "reasons", and wont get fixed because people keep white knighting bad design.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Do you not understand? The secondary effect is the same across all AT's. On defender you just have shitty damage AND a shitty secondary that doesnt really impact 99% of fights. Fire blast at least has "less shitty" damage. Electric blast shines on really no AT. It's passable on sentinels thanks to the adjustments to fixing thunderous blast and tesla cage, and blasters with select secondaries. 

I'm sorry, was I talking to you? 

 

But my criticism was mainly aimed at the prospect that the secondary effect is not an offensive enough in nature for a blaster and thus it should be changed. If the secondary effect doesn't scale as a debuff then that is likely something that should be fixed. I'll have to look up the powers to confirm. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

You're talking to the thread. If you have a problem with anyone responding, maybe take it to a PM? All you seem to do is shout down buffs to underperforming sets you don't seem to have much experience with, because you equate fixing them with whining for a gimme... 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Crysta Clear]

I like my electric blast just fine, thank you. I have never had any problems with my electric blaster's damage. Enemies go down quickly enough, and I don't understand why other people are having problems.

[Frostweaver]

47 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

I like my electric blast just fine, thank you. I have never had any problems with my electric blaster's damage. Enemies go down quickly enough, and I don't understand why other people are having problems.

Because you do not play other sets and thus have no basis for comparison.

It's like eating nothing but Horse manure all your life...  You don't understand that food is not supposed to taste like that.

And if you DO claim to play other sets and do not recognize Electric's underperforming nature, then I smell a bit more horse manure.

[Frostweaver]

4 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I'm sorry, was I talking to you? 

 

But my criticism was mainly aimed at the prospect that the secondary effect is not an offensive enough in nature for a blaster and thus it should be changed. If the secondary effect doesn't scale as a debuff then that is likely something that should be fixed. I'll have to look up the powers to confirm. 

You still don't get it. It is not the fact that the secondary effect is sub-par. It is not... It is simply TOO late of a secondary effect, especially for the price in damage you pay.

Every other set that has mitigation, that effect takes place IMMEDIATELY to mitigate damage the moment it is cast. Late Mitigation works fine for constrollers or defenders who have other sources of mass mitigation. And every other set that has decidedly BETTER IMMEDIATE mitigation, also have considerably better Damage than Electric Blast.

The point is that EB's damage, especially in the form of Thunderous Blast, is dramatically unbalanced for a Blaster set. and the excuse that it is the 'cost' of such mitigation when said mitigation will not help against and alpha, which is what kills blasters, absolutely does not hold any water.

Thunderous Blast and VS are dramatically poor DPA and DPS compared to every other set. The rest of the set is 'lowest' damage scale, which is generally reserved for sets that have meaningful front-end mitigation and a seldom-resisted damage type, such as psi and Dark. And the electric soft control is piss poor and is also lower damage than many of the 'hard controls' in sets with strong mitigation.

There is nothing wrong with having a set that is stronger in theme than it is in-game, but you should not have to put up with a set that is HUGELY under par for said theme. But between you and me, I have been poking around in rarely noticed areas long enough to notice that The original Devs often displayed a mean streak.

Electric Blast is clear evidence of that mean streak. And your apologism isn't helping anyone.

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, Crysta Clear said:

I like my electric blast just fine, thank you. I have never had any problems with my electric blaster's damage. Enemies go down quickly enough, and I don't understand why other people are having problems.

So what's the problem if we get the set buffed to be equal to other sets? Use DO's if you're worried about being OP. There's literally no valid reason why Thunderous Blast doesnt deal the right amount of damage for a T9 nuke on it's recharge timer. Or have 3/4 the range of other ranged nukes (60 vs 80).

 

Also, play it on a defender then come back and let me know how awesome it is. 

[Galaxy Brain]

What @Frostweaversaid about alphas is very poignant. For Blasters, especially with the sustain powers, they can deal with damage after the initial start of an encounter. If they love past an alpha, their damage and regen / absorb means they can often deal with the situation well enough to succeed anyways.

 

Defenders, Corruptors, and by proxy Dominators all have ways of mitigating that alpha strike back at them through debuff/buff or control powers to where the -end is a nice perk that they can take their time with or they dont notice that much. Dominators in particular have access to Elec Control which is the best sapping set in the game on it's own as it can efficiently drain mobs of enemies and keep them drained safely over time. Elec assault on top of that is just gravy, but in general they still have the means to mitigate an alpha strike no matter the primary and let /elec do its thing over time.

 

Blasters either are the alpha vs a bunch of mobs, or they get alpha'd. Effects that are immediate are vastly more valuable than ones that take even 5 sec to kick in since those effects can alter the return fire from any surviving enemies. If a blaster cant reliably wipe out a ton of threats with damage nor make the ones that stick around a little less threatening immediately they are in trouble.

 

The same sort of applies to the other ATs too given that they do not get better scalars for end drain IIRC. Their support or control sets would usually cover the immediate threat and as I mapped out in the blaste thread most enemies aside from bosses will die before they are fully drained by most attacks. Short Circuit (and thunderous blast) really carrys all the weight of effective end drain for EB, but those powers are super slow to wip out compared to power sink or elec control powers. It's sort of telling that Elec Melee has no specific end drain power to it, and elec control correctly trades damage for amazing end management. The blast set (and assault by proxy) could use some tuning based on these later electric examples.

[Crysta Clear]

That's nice. I've never had my Thunderous Blast fail to wipe out every non-Boss in a mob group. And my blaster is positionally softcapped and quite capable of surviving in melee even against a whole mob group, i.e., while Thunderous Blast is on cooldown. I don't even have Build-Up, just Aim, because my secondary is Ninja Training, and Shinobi's 30-second reset timer is not something I have ever waited for between mob groups!

 

This complaint about Electric Blast having subpar damage is just objectively false. That's all there is to it. It's plenty enough to deal with the situations the game presents to me on +4/x8.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Crysta Clear said:

That's nice. I've never had my Thunderous Blast fail to wipe out every non-Boss in a mob group. And my blaster is positionally softcapped and quite capable of surviving in melee even against a whole mob group, i.e., while Thunderous Blast is on cooldown. I don't even have Build-Up, just Aim, because my secondary is Ninja Training, and Shinobi's 30-second reset timer is not something I have ever waited for between mob groups!

 

This complaint about Electric Blast having subpar damage is just objectively false. That's all there is to it. It's plenty enough to deal with the situations the game presents to me on +4/x8.

I've played elec/elec/elec for 7 years on live, I had that guy IOd out as well. 

 

I switched to friggen energy blast on HC and noticed it way outperformed the damage and mitigation for far less risk to myself. 

 

Saying a set is fine when you are super IOd out is meaningless. Try it at the base level, compare it directly to other sets at the base level, and get back to me.

[Frostweaver]

Why is it that there's always some monkey that takes it upon themselves to LIE and use words like 'objectively' to denote 'subjectively' every time anyone suggests a long-needed improvement?

There's a lot of game both before and after level 50, sweetheart, and it's NOT that easy to softcap for most people.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Crysta Clear]

I have played it at the base level. Every character starts with nothing. I have never felt like Electric Blast was any less effective than any of my other Blasters' sets, and I've played Ice and Dual Pistols for ~40 levels each.

 

It is not a long-needed improvement, it would be overtuning a set that does not need any help. I honestly think the two of you just suck at the game! 🙂

Don't ask to ruin my difficulty because you suck. Get better or switch sets.

 

It's absolutely easy to softcap. It's easy to softcap a lot of archetypes by 30th level, even. Blasters tend to require 50 because the 5% defense portion of T4 Barrier that lasts the full duration is part of it, enabling you to build for 40%. But even without that, there are plenty of situational things you can use that are not incarnate powers, such as purple inspirations, or defense amplifiers, to get you through the interim.

 

I'm sorry that you're having trouble with it, but that doesn't make it difficult.

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Crysta Clear

[Leogunner]

17 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

You're talking to the thread. If you have a problem with anyone responding, maybe take it to a PM? All you seem to do is shout down buffs to underperforming sets you don't seem to have much experience with, because you equate fixing them with whining for a gimme... 

Your saying I don't understand your point (the -end and recovery aren't treated like a debuff for support) while ignoring the rest of my argument (that a set with inherent utility should shine on a build that is constructed around it). If I'm talking to the thread, why would I quote an individual? 

 

That isn't to say you can't respond to my posts but you might want to form your posts in that context rather than ruffle up tangent argument. You seem to have a beef with me. I'll be happy to "shout you down" since it must be working on you. 

[Crysta Clear]

Targeted and Location AoE Blaster T9's in Mid's read out as follows, at a base Lv. 50 value without enhancements or passives of any kind.

 

Geyser: 125s recharge, 219 base damage
Blizzard: 170s recharge, 417 base damage (over the whole 15 second duration, in the form of 75 ticks each of 2.78 lethal and 2.78 cold, need to keep them inside it for 15 seconds somehow)

Thunderous Blast: 170s recharge, 250 base damage

Overcharge: 125s recharge, 219 base damage

Full Auto: 60s recharge, 178 base damage (lethal, bad typing / commonly resisted by most enemies)
Rain of Arrows: 60s recharge, 225 base damage (lethal, bad typing / commonly resisted by most enemies)

 

So it seems to me that, of all the Ranged AoE Blaster T9's, only Thunderous Blast deals the same 250 base damage that the PBAoE Blaster T9's deal pretty uniformly across the board (with the exception of Fire Blast's Inferno, the outlier for its DoT effect). And its recharge is 25 seconds longer than the PBAoE T9's that clock in at universally 145s across the board.

 

There is no buff required, here. Thunderous Blast deals equal damage to the PBAoE T9's without requiring the Electric Blaster to close into melee. In exchange for the safety of range, you have a 25s longer base recharge. This literally is objective mathematics, here.