Blaster Secondaries: Why?

[Nemu]

No one asks what's the purpose of defenders and then categorize singularly that purpose as heal/buff/debuff/battlefield positioning a la storm, it's just support.

 

Why are we categorizing blaster purpose by AoE/Burst/whatever when it's just simply DAMAGE. Whatever falls under your targeting cursor is going to get hurt, a lot, by AoEs, by ST, by any means necessary.

 

You have a single playstyle and vision that works for you and you seem to refuse to acknowledge other playstyles that take advantage of the powers that you don't like. So you and others like you rationalize and perpetuate this notion that blaster secondaries pack full of melee range abilities are useless and it's just better to play blast set with ranged nuke/dev or /tac and hover blast. And you know what, a lot of the player base bought your notion that blasters are ranged. It works for you, it works for them, so congrats.

 

But I and others like me show a different path. We don't come on the forums and tell ranged blasters they are missing out because they didn't take melee range skills and they shouldn't play that way, as opposed to people on the opposite spectrum that vehemently declare "you're gimped/disadvantaged if you take melee as a blaster and you shouldn't play that way." We simply come here and say and most importantly show "here is how you can make melee work, and we can teach you how to be successful" But no that upsets the balance and you have to argue incessantly without actual game play proof about why melee doesn't make sense. Why can't you accept that some people can make it work and some people enjoy melee? There is an entire AT now built around the idea of ranged/armor and some people want to change blaster secondaries to be like that, why don't they just go play sentinels instead?

 

It's not about superiority of playstyles, being elite or whatever, it's about letting people be informed and letting them choose the playstyle/builds that suits them. There are a lot of blasters that only see one side of the spectrum and not the other, and does it really hurt you and the ranged community that much if they saw the melee side and decided to give it a try? I think it's a win for everyone when they can decide how they want to play.

 

Here is something we can all do to be more productive than this. Teach others how to play a safe ranged blaster or how to succeed in melee.

 

Can we stop arguing?

 

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Nemu

[StratoNexus]

7 hours ago, RialVestro said:

This is just flat out wrong. Blasters and Stalkers have the lowest HP in the entire game. And the idea that you can ever get anywhere close to a Tanker which has the highest HP in the game is just laughable.

 

I looked at the base HP of every Archetype in game back on live. I don't remember the exact numbers at this point but the difference between a Blaster and Tanker is HUGE.

I'm going to call BS on that. ITF absolutely requires a team to do. No one can solo that beast. Even with a full team that final mission is difficult as hell.

 

You either need a couple good tankers to hold the Lesser Nictus away from Romulus or enough DPS to overcome his regen even with the Lesser Nictus around him. Neither of which is possible by any solo character. The rest of that TF maybe... that's all easy, but that last mission with 5 freaking AVs at once, no way in hell. Even +0x0 you couldn't do that and you've made it even more unbelievable by turning up the difficulty on an already difficult Task Force.

I am not wrong about blaster HPs. My main is a Fire^3 with 1847 HPs (at level 50). Tanker base HP at level 50 is 1874.

Stalker, sentinel, and blaster base HP is 1205, blasters cap at 1847, the other two cap at 2088. Support base is 1017 and they cap at 1607, except MM, which cap the same but base is only 803. Blaster base HPs has been higher than support for a long time, but the cap increase did not come until I24, so that never hit live in the old days.

Hit Points wiki is mostly correct. It is missing the Blaster HP cap increase as well as sentinels, since those never hit live.

 

Blasters soloed the ITF before Incarnates were released. I have only ever duoed it on my blasters. If you take out the Nictus in the right order, that really helps. The auto hit damage pulse really hurts, so prioritize eliminating that one; but when duoing, we have to kill the pet spawner first, otherwise they start killing my ally.

Edited October 26, 2019 by StratoNexus

[StratoNexus]

3 hours ago, Procellus said:

😀: Blaster

🤬: Bad guy

 

😀 --------------->🤬 or 😀🤬

 

Most people would say the former. That is my point.

 

Different perspectives for different folks. When an enemy charges my blaster, I have frequently made the joke over voice chat, "What kind of moron charges the lady with Hot Feet, Blazing Aura, and a Fire Sword?" I have always teleported into the middle of spawns and now Spring Attack allows me to do it with damage and control.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a ranged blaster play style, I do it myself. But for many, the best fun of a blaster is using range and melee.

 

/bind ` "targetenemynear$$follow"

Edited October 26, 2019 by StratoNexus

[MunkiLord]

7 hours ago, RialVestro said:

I'm going to call BS on that. ITF absolutely requires a team to do. No one can solo that beast. Even with a full team that final mission is difficult as hell.

 

You either need a couple good tankers to hold the Lesser Nictus away from Romulus or enough DPS to overcome his regen even with the Lesser Nictus around him. Neither of which is possible by any solo character. The rest of that TF maybe... that's all easy, but that last mission with 5 freaking AVs at once, no way in hell. Even +0x0 you couldn't do that and you've made it even more unbelievable by turning up the difficulty on an already difficult Task Force.

What the hell are you talking about? It does not require a team, you are factually and unequivocally wrong in that statement. This is not a matter of opinion or viewpoint, here is proof you are wrong that a team is not required. This is a link to a Blaster(not me) doing a Master ITF at +4x8. I don't have a video of my run because I wasn't doing anything outrageous or particularly impressive, so I didn't think it was necessary. This person used Hover and I use Combat Jumping, but they were on a higher difficulty.

The ITF has been soloed many, many times by various ATs, I've done it with a few different Scrappers as well(though not Master). Other people have soloed Apex, STF, and almost every single TF in the game. 

[Outrider_01]

4 hours ago, Procellus said:

I can't believe that all these players that are smarterer and betterer than me keep missing my point.

 

What are the point of Blasters and do their Secondaries help them to fulfill that purpose?

 

Utility

 

-Ranged

 

-Melee

 

-Control like Caltrops

 

Using your head, you can change your style on the fly to suit the purpose you need.  At times you are gonna need to smash something in the face which is most satisfying.  Other times you can melt minions so the rest of the team can deal with the bosses.  Blaster styles are not set in stone.

[Tacopotamus]

8 hours ago, RialVestro said:

That's kind of my point though. You're always taking aggro in Melee range. The only way to avoid that is to stay out of Melee.

If you’re a good blaster, you’re always taking aggroe PERIOD.  If you’re a better blaster, you know how to keep yourself alive.  If you’re the best blaster, everything is dead before you are.  🙌🏻

 

PS - Smashing/lethal resists are super duper easy to get on the uppity up and are a good majority of  what melee inflicts.  #NoFear

Edited October 26, 2019 by Tacopotamus

[SmalltalkJava]

Blaster are for damage.  They have melee, range, AOE and single target attacks.  That gives players the option to build what type of character they want.  They could go balance or specialize in melee or range 

[Haijinx]

The ranged attacks are there to keep your targets from getting away.

[Tahliah]

On 10/24/2019 at 6:49 PM, quixoteprog said:

The conversation is about what makes sense. Melee powers on a blaster don't make sense.

As a blaster who avoids melee like the plague, I might agree with you . . . and long ago did think that melee on a blaster was silly and senseless.  But I no longer feel that way.  Not only do some people play "blappers" super well (see the video), but even for we range-preferring blasters, melee is sometimes necessary to get out of sticky situations so you can get back to range. 

 

My main is an ice/ice blaster, and from early game through incarnate, I've found myself in tight situations where Ice Sword (and later Freezing Touch) come in very handy.  Keep in mind that the blaster secondary melees also have mitigation factors that mean, for example, I can swipe with Ice Sword or stomp out Freezing Touch and slow/hold melee foes even if they aren't killed (and they won't be by Freezing Touch, obviously , but often are by Ice Sword). This give me precious seconds to get out of there and back to range. 

 

Likewise, Ice Patch, not technically a melee "attack" can be a wonderful melee "tool"; drop it, and as your foes flop around, get out of dodge and then pick them off from range. (Of course ice patch comes in handy in a variety of instances, like in doorways and such, but for melee help, it's invaluable if you find yourself zerg rushed.)  I don't pick up Frozen Fists because I stay out of melee as much as possible, but it makes sense if others wish to play more melee in their game.

 

Another good reason to pick up melee secondaries on a blaster is to have a place to put procs and/or to frankenslot for groovy set bonuses that add to your blastery goodness but cannot be placed in your primary powers.

 

Sure, you can blast in melee range, but having an extra option (or two) is always nice for specific situations.  Or, as others have mentioned, just don't get them at all.  Shrug.  It's up to you.

 

Another example is a new toon I'm running, a rad/plant blaster.  Super fun combo, btw.  I was running with a friend last night who also has a blaster with /plant secondary, and he mentioned that he plays his much more melee-heavy.  And that's fine.  With /plant, as with most other blaster secondaries, you can tailor your toon to your style and needs based on your power selections.  I didn't take early melee secondaries, except one, but he chose to take more.  I'm going more for mitigation in terms of holds/toxins because that's what I prefer.  That's cool, right?  If I don't want them, I can choose something else, and if he does want them, he can choose them.  Win-win.  That said, I will probably pick them all up as I level just to check them out and see which melee I want to keep (yay respecs!) . . . because I will keep one or two for the reasons outlined above.

 

tldr: yes, melee attacks on blasters do make sense. 

 

 

[ZeusMagnus]

I’m just going to toss my 2 cents in (maybe 3) I like the secondaries for blasters because I like to deal damage at all angles (I usually do live to tell the tale). I see blasters kind of like of like Hawkeye from the MCU we know he’s an archer but we’ve also seen him have to get up close and personal.

 

Some people are asking what are the point of blasters and everyone is going to have a different perspective but I think they are just for damage and nothing more which is why they made the other pseudo-blaster classes. (Just my opinion)

 

It would be better if blaster secondaries were similar to dominators just replace the range attacks with buffs or controls.

 

Well that’s my 3 cents maybe nickel but my question to you all is What kind of secondary would ideal for a blaster so it can maintain being the range powerhouse?

[EmmySky]

2 hours ago, ZeusMagnus said:

What kind of secondary would ideal for a blaster so it can maintain being the range powerhouse?

To be a pure range powerhouse I would so have the secondary be like the primary.  Double range sets!  I prefer the way it is now because whether you like it or not you will end up in melee range and some point and those attacks are great. I dont think blasters need a buff set or a heal set or a control set because then they wouldn't be blasters, they'd be one of the other ATs.  But since you asked, I think double pure range sets would make a mighty powerhouse.

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, RialVestro said:

No, that's a terrible Blaster. That's the Tanker's job.

Lots of damage causes aggro, again, what are you talking about?

Edited October 27, 2019 by MunkiLord

[Tacopotamus]

2 hours ago, RialVestro said:

No, that's a terrible Blaster. That's the Tanker's job.

Wow, you ain’t blasting right son.  But then again, I guess I’m not teaming right either if I don’t have a tank on my team lolololol

[Tacopotamus]

59 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

 

 

Also if you attack from a distance you can do massive damage without aggroing the entire mob at once. Unless you attack the boss first then you'll aggro the entire mob no matter what but as long as you start with the minions and work your way up you can pick them off one a time without taking on any aggro. 

My man...you can do this with melee damage too.  In terms of picking them off one by one...I can’t understand why anyone would or want to. But if slow paced game style is your choice, so be it.

 

Honestly, I have no qualms with how you or anyone else chooses to play this game but I can’t back the logic of “the primaries have no synergy with the secondaries”.   Aggroe is attained via melee or range.  I think the problem is people lay out combats in their head for the ‘perfect’ scenario where the enemy stays put and they’re dead before they get them.  No one ever thinks of the scene where the tank and brute aggroed two mobs at once, AMBUSH, wandering mob or the “I thought I had it under control” guy.  The blaster that can survive THOSE scenarios impresses the ever living fuck out of me.  Because that guy/gal understands how to play their toon and knows that the game isn’t 2 dimensional and they know the balance between blaps and blasts.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Tacopotamus

[Tacopotamus]

23 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

To answer your first question...

 

You would want to pick them off one at a time so you can survive longer. If you're soloing a Blaster this is actually going to be FASTER than if you were to take on the mob all at once because it means you can clear the entire mission without having to spend extra time running back from the hospital over and over again. It might be slow paced compared to other ATs but if you're soloing a Blaster you kinda of have to take it slow as rushing is going to kill you.

 

On teams it's kind of a situational thing depending on what your up against and/or the structure of your team some times it is better to pull than to rush in. In most cases on a team you should be fine just rushing in cause most good teams can handle it. I'm kinda surprised you even need to ask this question. It's like you've never had to pull before.

 

As to the second part of your post. That's just flat out wrong... which also might be because you've seemingly never pulled before. And no you can't pull with a melee character that's impossible. Only ranged characters can do it. Melee takes aggro before they even attack, range does not.

 

As soon as you run into a mob before you've even attacked anyone you've already aggroed the entire mob. This is why you can't pull with a melee character. With range however you're far enough away from the enemies that they won't even realize you're there until you attack them. And as long as you use a single target attack then only the enemy you targeted will be aggroed, the rest of the mob will continue to stand there like the idiot NPCs that they are.

 

So fighting at range vs. fighting in Melee makes a HUGE difference in how much aggro you're going to take with a Blaster. And yeah there's the odd ambush that is going to get you no matter what but those are pretty rare. Most of the game is deciding the best way to handle a mob before you attack and if you're just going to rush in every time without a plan I think you're playing the wrong Archetype.

I didn’t have any questions.  I’m firm with where I stand. 😬
 

Got no cure for your gameplay chief aside from playing less linear.

 

Situational gameplay will always have different outcomes and solutions with various teams.  My attack rotations on my blaster vary and that’s always exciting to me whether I’m range or melee.  It’s interesting to see that you thought the ITF was impossible to solo...so my guess is you’re very set in your way of gameplay.  Blasters are tougher than you think and nowadays, you don’t need a defensive primary/secondary to keep yourself alive thanks to IO’s.  🖖🏻

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, RialVestro said:

or you're fighting in Melee along side the tank and you're taking AOEs all of which is going to get you killed because you have low HP and zero defense.

 

42 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

You would want to pick them off one at a time so you can survive longer. If you're soloing a Blaster this is actually going to be FASTER than if you were to take on the mob all at once because it means you can clear the entire mission without having to spend extra time running back from the hospital over and over again. It might be slow paced compared to other ATs but if you're soloing a Blaster you kinda of have to take it slow as rushing is going to kill you.

 

Most of the game is deciding the best way to handle a mob before you attack and if you're just going to rush in every time without a plan I think you're playing the wrong Archetype.

I cut out most to highlight what you're most wrong about. You're making huge assumptions that any random Blaster out there doesn't have any defenses. You're just declaring that Blasters have to take it slow or die or that rushing enemies style isn't right for an entire AT. You are just flat out wrong. First, I already provided a video showing a Blaster taking out Rom and his Nictus AV buddies solo, which you flat out said wasn't possible by any solo player. Funny you didn't reply to that after calling BS and being proven wrong.

 

It's fine if you want to take your time and pick off enemies, if that's what you enjoy I say go for it. But you're coming to a place people go to look for information and the information you are giving is flat out wrong. There are many ways to accomplish various goals. The fact that you don't use them, doesn't mean they simply don't exist and don't work. You're giving bad information to people and they should be aware of it.

[Haijinx]

Even on SOs you can melee with blasters while leveling up. 

 

You have to be smart about it, you can't just run in like a scrapper.  

 

But for the boss mop up after all the AOEs hit, nothing beats those slow recharge, hard hitting Blaster melee attacks.

 

Then you can fast snipe into the next group as soon as the Alpha gets broken.  Combat Jump hop .. ranged AOEs, T2, T3 blast.. another CJ hop ... Melee again. 

 

 

[Haijinx]

42 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

 

 

It's fine if you want to take your time and pick off enemies,

Zzzzz

 

 

[MunkiLord]

Also if the Blaster is constantly leading off mobs, then the Tanker needs to move faster. But most don't, which is why I never seek them out(so I'm clear, I don't turn them away).

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Zzzzz

 

 

It's not my style either, I prefer Scrapperlock regardless of circumstances.

[Ukase]

I really should read through all 5 pages of this, but I'm not. I did read that one felt blasters are the least survivable of the various ATs he/she had played. 

I see this type of comment in various league chats, broadcast, help channel, lfg, etc. ALL the time about how weak blasters are. Rubbish! 

Badly played blasters are certainly lacking. But a skilled blaster will outlive many other ATs that are played by equally skilled players. The beautiful balance of damage, accuracy, endurance management, recharge and defense is like a chess game. Advance one piece too far, and you're out of control in other facets. But, with forethought, practice and intelligent slotting, blasters are a genuinely capable AT. 

The initial question by the OP was answered, and answered well. Other posters chimed in, but the OP thinks the use of damage mitigation from melee attacks "brass knuckles for a guy with a glass jaw" don't make sense. 

Here's something the OP didn't consider: a badly played blaster will indeed have a glass jaw. But a skilled one will not. And it has less to do with melee attacks, and more to do with the player behind the avatar. What inspirations do they carry? Do they make effective use of binds and/or macros? How much experience do they have with their character and the content? Many of us who played back in the early issues to closing know the content very well. There's just not many surprises. Because we know what to expect, we've learned how to position ourselves for best results. (admittedly, experience has less to do with skill, but it's still a factor) 

Perhaps a blaster just isn't a good fit. 

[MunkiLord]

46 minutes ago, RialVestro said:

Not really an assumption. I mentioned in an earlier post we're talking strickly about Primary/Secondary. There is in fact no Defense powers anywhere in there. You might get some defense from pools and such but that's not relevant to the discussion.

Of course it's relevant to the discussion. It is impossible to only take powers in your primary and secondary after certain levels. So the higher security level a character is, the more pool powers they must have

 

But I admit, if someone makes a build and decides not to take any defensive powers at all, then they won't have any defensive powers. Excluding options that every single Blaster has is framing the discussion in a way that does not reflect reality. 
 

Blasters can play in melee and not only survive, but thrive. Blasters can handle aggro and again survive and thrive. Blasters can also solo the ITF, among other task forces. All three of those things are proven facts. You stating otherwise is giving people bad information. You are objectively wrong and it's already been proven by two different videos in this thread. 

[Haijinx]

The sustains are some of the best "defensive" powers available on a single power basis. 

 

The problem is perhaps that blasters only get that power and usually no other defensive powers (a couple sets have 2) 

 

Of course that's more than support sets typically get.

[FUBARczar]

On 10/24/2019 at 3:14 PM, Procellus said:

The newer secondaries and the sustains do a much better job of it, yes. But secondaries mostly just add another attack, that places you in a range that is disadvantageous, rather than setting the conditions to allow you to attack with greater ease. 

melee is not a disadvantageous range per se, at times it's an inevitable range, for instance like when you want to nuke.  Please don't tell me you skip those.  Or do you only play Ice, Arrow, Electrical or Water? 

 

And the secondaries are not about making it easy, they are about more damage, sustainability, control,, utility, and variety.    The various secondaries offer a wide range of powers allowing for different experiences and playstyles for all of the primaries.  Of course some synergize better than others.

[FUBARczar]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The sustains are some of the best "defensive" powers available on a single power basis. 

 

The problem is perhaps that blasters only get that power and usually no other defensive powers (a couple sets have 2) 

 

Of course that's more than support sets typically get.

and always remember that Sentinels are that way --------->