Does the same set work different when primary vs secondary?

[Glow Worm]

I’ve been wanting this for a while, and I know it’s a simple question, but I thought I should ask.
 

Does the same powerset (like Plant Control) function differently, more efficiently, do more damage, etc... when primary vs secondary?

 

thanks!

[oxmox]

Sets that exist as both a secondary and primary have lower values as a secondary. Buffs/debuffs/heals have smaller effects, damage is reduced, damage resistance/defense is reduced, etc.

 

However, the exact amounts vary between ATs, there's no consistent multiplier that covers all sets. (e.g. controller secondaries have higher values than Mastermind secondaries).

[Glow Worm]

Thanks!

[Pengatron]

A secondary power does about 80% of what it would do as a primary.

 

If a blaster power, for example, does 100 points damage, as a secondary power it would do 80 points damage.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pengatron

[Lines]

There are quite a lot of variables that exist between the ATs (base damage, resistance cap, strategies, inherents, etc) that skew how powersets work. A melee set on a scrapper is very different to a melee set on a tanker.

[drbuzzard]

31 minutes ago, Pengatron said:

A secondary power does about 80% of what it would do as a primary.

 

If a blaster power, for example, does 100 points damage, as a secondary power it would do 80 points damage.

 

This simply isn't true. As mentioned by others, this sort of thing varies by AT. A blast power in a defender secondary will do completely different amount of damage compared to if it is found in a dominator assault secondary (and I'm reasonably sure neither would be 80% of blaster damage, which itself isn't really a fixed value due to defiance).

 

Once upon a time, when there was just CoH, you could make some reasonable generalizations about primary vs. secondary, but with the current number of ATs, no such generalizations are valid.

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, Pengatron said:

A secondary power does about 80% of what it would do as a primary.

 

If a blaster power, for example, does 100 points damage, as a secondary power it would do 80 points damage.

 

This is objectively false.  Please don't spread misinformation.  Preferably, please delete your post so others don't get confused

 

For damage, see the link here, which shows the appropriate scales, which have nothing to do with primary vs secondary: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage#Damage_Scale

 

As you can see, primary vs secondary can vary wildly from Blasters doing 112.5% damage in their primary with Defenders doing 65% to Stalkers doing 100% with a primary melee attack to Dominators doing 105% with an identical secondary melee attack.  

 

Paragonwiki also has the scales for various support and defense sets too if you look on each ATs page.  

Edited October 31, 2019 by Omega-202

[Darkir]

14 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

This is objectively false.  Please don't spread misinformation.  Preferably, please delete your post so others don't get confused

 

For damage, see the link here, which shows the appropriate scales, which have nothing to do with primary vs secondary: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage#Damage_Scale

 

As you can see, primary vs secondary can vary wildly from Blasters doing 112.5% damage in their primary with Defenders doing 65% to Stalkers doing 100% with a primary melee attack to Dominators doing 105% with an identical secondary melee attack.  

 

Paragonwiki also has the scales for various support and defense sets too if you look on each ATs page.  

Even the damage scale is only a general guide. Some powers do not conform to it. It's a good general guide though, it just can't be relied on when it comes to some specific powers.

[merrypessimist]

Primary power sets tend to use the highest of an AT's scalars to determine effects, while secondary sets tend to use lower scalars.  This is not an "always" rule though, and power effectiveness is always a function of base stat multiplied by AT scalar. 

[Call Me Awesome]

As has been said, with some caveats a secondary set will have a lesser effect than the same set as a primary.  The exact amount of difference varies by AT and other factors but it's a fairly reliable thumb rule.  A Defender's primary is stronger than the same set as a Corruptor secondary and so forth. 

 

There's also different modifiers on different AT's; a Blaster and Corruptor may share the same power set but the Blaster will do more damage than the Corruptor since Blasters have higher base damage.  The same thing applies to all AT's, a Scrapper has a higher damage modifier than a Brute for example even though both have the same sets as primaries.  (Ok, to nitpick Brutes have higher damage CAPS and with high Fury they can do massive damage)

[Flashtoo]

The fact that you get access to powers in your primary well before the same tier powers in your secondary is very significant when leveling and when sidekicking down for TFs and teaming - Brutes and Tanks have the same available sets and similar roles on a team, and can have exactly the same picks and slotting at level 50 overall, but the fact that they have to be taken in a different order means that (for example) when leveled down for a Penny Yin TF, the tank can Shield Charge but the brute can't. Maybe this isn't relevant to your play style (you might only interested in high-level content; I have no idea!) but it's certainly relevant to me!

Edited November 1, 2019 by Flashtoo

[siolfir]

On 10/31/2019 at 12:02 PM, Glow Worm said:

I’ve been wanting this for a while, and I know it’s a simple question, but I thought I should ask.
 

Does the same powerset (like Plant Control) function differently, more efficiently, do more damage, etc... when primary vs secondary?

 

thanks!

Quoting the OP since they haven't responded to the thread since a (wrong) answer above.

 

All powers, regardless of primary, secondary, or pool, are based on AT modifiers. Damage powers do a certain scale of damage multiplied by the AT's damage modifier: melee powersets use the melee damage modifier (even for ranged attacks in them, such as Focus in Claws or Impale in Spines); ranged attacks use the ranged damage modifier.

 

Buffs and debuffs are also based on AT modifiers; Scrappers have a high melee damage buff modifier (ie, self damage buffs) but a lower range damage buff modifier (ie, damage buffs to other people), so their version of Build Up is +100% damage - higher than the Brute or Stalker versions, which are +80% damage - while their version of Assault is the same strength.

 

Build Up is a perfect example if you want an immediate disproval of the "primary powers are stronger than secondary", take a look at the Blaster version, it's the same +100% that Scrappers get.

 

Here is an archive of the AT modifiers from City of Data as of July 2014. Unfortunately, the powers list in the archived CoD doesn't allow you to select Unspecified anymore (which used to tell you exactly which modifiers were used for the different powers). But whether or not a power is in a primary or secondary powerset has absolutely nothing to do with the strength of the power.

 

[Glow Worm]

Thanks so much for all the replies. I’m still following this one. 😉

[Heraclea]

There are some powers that change or don't exist as primaries for secondaries.  Fire/ Scrappers don't get Combustion; /Fire Tankers do.   Armor sets work rather differently on Sentinels, and a whole lot differently on Stalkers.  All Stalkers get Hide in their armor sets, unless for some it's been renamed to a random Japanese word.  Nobody else does.