Have the talks with NCsoft slowed down content progression?

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, Sylar said:

You can sit there and add anything you want to make it sound ridiculous but i dont appreciate the gas lighting, i know what i experienced, and i know how things were run, i was speaking factually on the information that i have in front of me, and from what i have experienced, nothing you added was of any help to anyone or friendly in any wya, your comment proves my poinit exactly how people on this server handle criticism or complaints.

For where I sit, you threw a ton of shade and put out a considerable amount of inaccurate material (followed by the usual dodge of claiming that what you presented as facts was meant to taken as opinion, until you want them to regarded as facts)...  and in return the community has responded about how I'd expect such steaming heaps of stuff to be responded to.

tl;dr: You sow what you reap.

(I especially laughed at the ritual invocation of tyranny and the hilarious misuse of gas lighting.)

[Sylar]

1 hour ago, Sailboat said:

Eh.  I keep seeing this claim.  Yet, if I understand it, Homecoming asserts that they were preparing to roll out the code at around the time the news broke.  Which to believe?

 

Well, after the news broke/was leaked, Homecoming almost immediately rolled out public servers and a vast volunteer effort with a server (almost immediately becoming multiple servers), forums, discord, in-game GMs, and (let's not forget) cold hard cash that would only later be replaced by donations (always a risky expenditure).

 

Having worked on volunteer internet efforts before, I have to say that the speed, size, and well-thought-out comprehensive deployment of the (all-volunteer!) Homecoming effort would be completely implausible as a panicked response to the leak.  It's patently obvious to anyone who's ever done any serious volunteer effort that this MUST have been in the works before the leak.

 

That said -- that's a moment's examination would lead any thoughtful person to reject the claim that HC never intended to release -- we are left to wonder why this narrative is constantly being pushed, and by whom. Do the the people asserting this claim think we are easily fooled?

6 years, it is not a claim, that is fact, why not after the first year? second year? hell even third year? that excuse can only take you so far until you have to stand in front of everyone and just admit you had no intention of doing so, 6 long years some people did not know of the servers existence and by invite only? ridiculous, sorry but there is no justification for keeping the code that long, if that is how people see it then maybe then going around killing people in secret is ok until you get caught?

 

 

[Megajoule]

I think it's kind of amazing, but not really surprising, that people can simultaneously think/argue that "talks with NCSoft will never work" and "Leandro should have released his code years ago."

Because if both of those are true, here's what would have happened, IMO:

It's 2013 or 2014.  The secret gets out, somehow.  And the same people at NCsoft that were responsible for shutting down the live game send out their attack lawyers to kill this illegal project stone dead.

That's it.  Game over, forever.  The last hidden spark snuffed out.

And five years later, we have none of this.

 

IMO again, within a month of when it finally got out, we saw the proof of what would have happened.  The people running the then-dominant server got a whiff of what they thought might be a valid C&D, went "hoshit", and immediately shut it all down.

Fortunately, it wasn't a real C&D, and other people were there to take up the reins.  This time.

 

IMO for the third time, the complainers - still, months later! - are a bunch of folks who are mad that they weren't invited... to a party held by people hiding a family in their attic, with every reason to believe that if word got out (and it almost did, how many times before the last?) the police would swoop in and arrest and/or disappear them all.

No, you weren't trusted or invited.  Because those were the stakes (as far as anyone knew at the time).  The lives of the people who had the code ruined, and no more CoH for anyone, ever.

 

Fortunately for all of us, it seems that 7-8 years is enough time for things to change at NCsoft that they didn't immediately SWAT the server.  (I, personally, do not agree with those who argue that they never would have, or that it wouldn't matter because "they'll never get all of us"; maybe they couldn't hunt down every private server, but there would be nothing like Homecoming or Rebirth, and I don't consider eight people playing on a server in someone's basement to "really" be CoH.  So instead of one secret server hiding from the authorities, you have a dozen; how is that actually better to the thousands not in the know?)

So I have hope that this time, something might actually come of this round of negotiations.

 

But either way, I don't want to see a game that is almost 100% pure nostalgia appeal, a time capsule of an MMO from 10-15 years ago, and which is by most accounts a barely-functioning mass of badly documented spaghetti code, loaded down with a bunch of half-baked "brilliant" ideas with even less consideration and testing put into them than the Cryptic/Paragon devs (and that's saying something).

Edited November 4, 2019 by Megajoule

[Sylar]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

I don't think they had a NDA and "invite only" policy because they were working for years to get the code ready to release to the world.  I'm sure there were contingency plans in place for what to do once word got out. 

 

This isn't a knock on anyone at homecoming.  I think any of us would have done what they did were we in their shoes.  But I don't think they were in hiding for years and by coincidence were ready to release the game for all the world to see when someone broke the NDA.  regardless, I think we should be happy with what we have and enjoy it while it lasts and thank all of the people running various servers for their effort.  For all we know, NCSoft is going to shut it down tomorrow.

 

it was definitely invite only, i was on that server, i know how it was ran, you had to have a "sponsor" and then they would invite you based on how trustworthy you are and if you could "keep it secret, keep it safe" and "turtle up" if things get leaked, but i have seen big streamers come out about the private server so its not a big deal for me or anyone to really come out about it and say i or anyone was on it, there was no NDA on the private server per se, but if you leaked it you and your invite tree were banned.

[jubakumbi]

42 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Calling something passive aggressive is just blabber for "I don't like what you're saying but can't actually refute the substance of it."

 

I work in an IP related field and have a background in computer technology so yes, the others are actually doing it wrong. I can't tell you how many ventures I've seen go out of business because they focused on the flash without addressing the underlying systems needed to maintain it. You can have the best ideas in the world and if you don't have a solid foundation to build them on they'll be just another failure.

 

And apparently it IS mutually exclusive at the moment because none of the others are moving to a 64-bit client and HC hasn't grabbed up any of their "easy fixes." They can share a bit, but from what I understand there are some rather fundamental differences to the i23, i24 and i25 systems that don't make it as easy as a straight cut and paste to cross implement features (particularly when going from a 32-bit to 64-bit architecture or visa versa).

 

Also, you clearly aren't that versed in IP law. NCSoft actually CAN absolutely pick and choose exactly who they hit with a C&D at their whim. That is the entire point of IP law. They get to selectively choose who gets to use their IP (which in this case is not the additions you say they could remove to get around... its the base code of the game). They are entirely within their rights to tell one person they can't use it at all and the person next to them they can do whatever they want with it for any reason they decide. That they haven't is only by NCSoft's own good graces. The ONLY thing that can truly prevent that possibly though is an actual licensing deal with NCSoft which sets the terms for use and that's what the Homecoming team are trying to secure that the others aren't.

OK - I guess I am totally and completely wrong, in every way imaginable.

Thanks for the update, I had no idea!

Your outlook is the only correct one, how foolish of me to presume otherwise, making a living and all in the channel myself.

 

The moment NCSoft chooses to give the right to only a select few servers and tries to shut the rest down will be a real interesting few hours on the Internet.

 

None of that is a reason to villify the other servers or the work they do.

I have moved more code from 32 to 64 bit than I can possibly recall, duh, some coding takes time.

You speak in abolutes in a world of grey.

[Starforge]

7 minutes ago, Sylar said:

6 years, it is not a claim, that is fact, why not after the first year? second year? hell even third year?

Clearly you don't know much about server upkeep and resources required for a large playerbase. Think logically here for just a second if you'll indulge me for a moment. Do you really think the private server was given all of the resources to maintain a server for a large playerbase that the live servers had? Obviously, the answer is no. 

[Sylar]

12 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

For where I sit, you threw a ton of shade and put out a considerable amount of inaccurate material (followed by the usual dodge of claiming that what you presented as facts was meant to taken as opinion, until you want them to regarded as facts)...  and in return the community has responded about how I'd expect such steaming heaps of stuff to be responded to.

tl;dr: You sow what you reap.

(I especially laughed at the ritual invocation of tyranny and the hilarious misuse of gas lighting.)

no you mean the HC community jumped on to someone making a different comment as per usual, people like me get pushed out, surprised i am not banned yet, that is the usual MO of some people around here anyway, anything that isn't positive of HC is usually silenced or banned.

 

as i always do i present the information there in, as i do in my review videos, of which i will do when reviewing all coh servers, though i will give you a good example of gas lighting, Leo told people how MM's pets cannot be modified or made to be customizable for years, all of sudden within 6 months Bubblewrap comes across this as a MISTAKE, people have been begging for new content over the years and all we got was peanuts, now people are really working on their version of coh and future content the future looks brighter than it did 6 years ago, being told something cannot be done all the while giving positive reinforcement after being told we were in the wrong for asking, that is not gas lighting no?

[Sylar]

2 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Clearly you don't know much about server upkeep and resources required for a large playerbase. Think logically here for just a second if you'll indulge me for a moment. Do you really think the private server was given all of the resources to maintain a server for a large playerbase that the live servers had? Obviously, the answer is no. 

the private server wasa taking in more than $3k a month for servers when to host a server that size costs around $400, you do the math, some months it would go up to $9k i saw roughly, again this is fact, yes i know how much it takes to run servers, hell i run some off of my own computer for other games, i know how it all works, so your presumption is incorrect.

[Sylar]

15 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

I think it's kind of amazing, but not really surprising, that people can simultaneously think/argue that "talks with NCSoft will never work" and "Leandro should have released his code years ago."

Because if both of those are true, here's what would have happened, IMO:

It's 2013 or 2014.  The secret gets out, somehow.  And the same people at NCsoft that were responsible for shutting down the live game send out their legal team to kill this illegal project stone dead.

That's it.  Game over, forever.

And five years later, we have none of this.

 

IMO again, within a month of when it finally got out, we saw the proof of what would have happened.  The people running the then-dominant server get a whiff of what they think might be a valid C&D, go "hoshit", and immediately shut it all down.

Fortunately, other people were there to take up the reins.  This time.

 

IMO for the third time, the complainers - still, months later! - are a bunch of folks who are mad that they weren't invited... to a party held by people hiding a family in their attic, with every reason to believe that if word got out (and it almost did, how many times before the last?) the police would swoop in and arrest and/or disappear them all.

No, you weren't trusted or invited.  Because those were the stakes (as far as anyone knew at the time).  The lives of the people who had the code ruined, and no more CoH for anyone, ever.

 

Fortunately for all of us, it seems that 7-8 years is enough time for things to change at NCsoft that they didn't immediately SWAT the server.  (I, personally, do not agree with those who argue that they never would have, or that it wouldn't matter because "they'll never get all of us"; maybe they couldn't hunt down every private server, but there would be nothing like Homecoming or Rebirth, and I don't consider eight people playing on a server in someone's basement to "really" be CoH.  So instead of one secret server hiding from the authorities, you have a dozen; how is that actually better to the thousands not in the know?)

So I have hope that this time, something might actually come of this round of negotiations.

 

But either way, I don't want to see a game that is almost 100% pure nostalgia appeal, a time capsule of an MMO from 10-15 years ago, and which is by most accounts a barely-functioning mass of badly documented spaghetti code, loaded down with a bunch of half-baked "brilliant" ideas with even less consideration and testing put into them than the Cryptic/Paragon devs (and that's saying something).

Maybe you are right, who knows, but the right thing to do would have been to be open and honest with ALL of the coh community, not to a select few, that becomes a bit elitist in my eyes, it means only those who can be trusted can join the game, when the game was free for everyone at one time and is now at the moment stolen code, seems unfair to the majority, but i do see your ponit and can agree that maybe things may have not turned out great if it got leaked, but then, at least he did the right thing.

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 minutes ago, Sylar said:

no you mean the HC community jumped on to someone making a different comment as per usual, people like me get pushed out, surprised i am not banned yet, that is the usual MO of some people around here anyway, anything that isn't positive of HC is usually silenced or banned.

As expected, here comes the next squares in the bingo.  The claims of being unfairly treated.  The paranoia.  The (invariably false) claims that any behavior not approved by The Party is grounds for an instant ban.

And no, that's not what I meant.  I meant exactly what I said - you're reaping what you sowed when you came on here and started throwing shade.  The problem isn't lack of positivity, it's that what you're tossing around is more suited for fertilizing gardens.

[Megajoule]

That's the thing.  Nobody knows what might have happened.  All we have are guesses after the fact.

Would you be willing to risk it, to be "open and honest", about something that could mean losing your job, your savings, your freedom, and "no more CoH for anyone, ever"?

I'll say it:  I wouldn't.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Megajoule

[Sylar]

3 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

As expected, here comes the next squares in the bingo.  The claims of being unfairly treated.  The paranoia.  The (invariably false) claims that any behavior not approved by The Party is grounds for an instant ban.

And no, that's not what I meant.  I meant exactly what I said - you're reaping what you sowed when you came on here and started throwing shade.  The problem isn't lack of positivity, it's that what you're tossing around is more suited for fertilizing gardens.

good example of gas lighting right there, to say i am paranoid , excellent next you will want to go personal at me, may i suggest the mental health section since i have bipolar disorder?

 

i believe we have reached an impasse, i just call it how i see it, and so do you by all of a counts, lets leave it there before this becomes a tit for tat scenario.

 

All i care about is everynoe gets a chance in the running at the table for the talks with NCSoft, i can tell you right now not all servers were invited.

[Sylar]

5 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

That's the thing.  Nobody knows what might have happened.  All we have are guesses after the fact.

Would you be willing to risk it, to be "open and honest", about something that could mean losing your job, your freedom, your savings, and "no more CoH for anyone, ever"?

I'll say it:  I wouldn't.

 

i would, simply because it strengthens your character, remember NCSoft are the bad guys, not all of us players, so to risk it against the machine so to speak would mean the world to everyone, hey at least he tried right? that would have been my statement for that, keeping integrity is everything to a hero, so why didnt he lead by example and risked it all for everyone?

 

because they have no copyright laws in argentina as such and with he couldnt be tracked or hassled in any way.

[Jimmy]

8 minutes ago, Sylar said:

All i care about is everynoe gets a chance in the running at the table for the talks with NCSoft, i can tell you right now not all servers were invited.

Absolutely not all servers were invited. You just exemplified why:

5 minutes ago, Sylar said:

remember NCSoft are the bad guys

This stance is very prevalent amongst the larger servers that were not invited. We want these talks to succeed, so it would be incredibly unwise for us to invite parties that strongly adhere to this belief to the table. It would only muddy the waters.

[MunkiLord]

55 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

I think it's kind of amazing, but not really surprising, that people can simultaneously think/argue that "talks with NCSoft will never work" and "Leandro should have released his code years ago."

Because if both of those are true, here's what would have happened, IMO:

It's 2013 or 2014.  The secret gets out, somehow.  And the same people at NCsoft that were responsible for shutting down the live game send out their attack lawyers to kill this illegal project stone dead.

That's it.  Game over, forever.  The last hidden spark snuffed out.

And five years later, we have none of this.

 

IMO again, within a month of when it finally got out, we saw the proof of what would have happened.  The people running the then-dominant server got a whiff of what they thought might be a valid C&D, went "hoshit", and immediately shut it all down.

Fortunately, it wasn't a real C&D, and other people were there to take up the reins.  This time.

 

IMO for the third time, the complainers - still, months later! - are a bunch of folks who are mad that they weren't invited... to a party held by people hiding a family in their attic, with every reason to believe that if word got out (and it almost did, how many times before the last?) the police would swoop in and arrest and/or disappear them all.

No, you weren't trusted or invited.  Because those were the stakes (as far as anyone knew at the time).  The lives of the people who had the code ruined, and no more CoH for anyone, ever.

 

Fortunately for all of us, it seems that 7-8 years is enough time for things to change at NCsoft that they didn't immediately SWAT the server.  (I, personally, do not agree with those who argue that they never would have, or that it wouldn't matter because "they'll never get all of us"; maybe they couldn't hunt down every private server, but there would be nothing like Homecoming or Rebirth, and I don't consider eight people playing on a server in someone's basement to "really" be CoH.  So instead of one secret server hiding from the authorities, you have a dozen; how is that actually better to the thousands not in the know?)

So I have hope that this time, something might actually come of this round of negotiations.

 

But either way, I don't want to see a game that is almost 100% pure nostalgia appeal, a time capsule of an MMO from 10-15 years ago, and which is by most accounts a barely-functioning mass of badly documented spaghetti code, loaded down with a bunch of half-baked "brilliant" ideas with even less consideration and testing put into them than the Cryptic/Paragon devs (and that's saying something).

 

39 minutes ago, Sylar said:

Maybe you are right, who knows, but the right thing to do would have been to be open and honest with ALL of the coh community, not to a select few, that becomes a bit elitist in my eyes, it means only those who can be trusted can join the game, when the game was free for everyone at one time and is now at the moment stolen code, seems unfair to the majority, but i do see your ponit and can agree that maybe things may have not turned out great if it got leaked, but then, at least he did the right thing.

I'd like to add, that depending how the code was acquired, the country, and whoever leaked it originally, police getting involved and literally arresting someone was a very real possibility. Obviously I don't know names or details on how it all went down, but this is something that I feel is important to consider. Even if it wasn't a criminal matter, the leaker was under a very real threat of lawsuit if such information became known. 

[Fan Mail]

I'm just sitting here reading this thread and came to the realization that if I were a volunteer staffer for Homecoming and I had to read this kind of stuff, I'd probably walk away.  

 

I mean, "GMs/Devs/DMs, how do you put up with this shite...and for free?"  

[Abraxus]

9 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

 

I'd like to add, that depending how the code was acquired, the country, and whoever leaked it originally, police getting involved and literally arresting someone was a very real possibility. Obviously I don't know names or details on how it all went down, but this is something that I feel is important to consider. Even if it wasn't a criminal matter, the leaker was under a very real threat of lawsuit if such information became known. 

Very true!  There were very real consequences to be considered, which is easy to overlook...unless you were the one(s) affected.  I appreciate the risk he/she/they took at the time.

 

On a side note, I'd really like to see us move beyond what already happened in the past (which we cannot change), and concentrate on the present, and the future, which are still somewhat in our control.  Recriminations by those who feel the old score server, NCSoft, or Leo personally did them wrong, seem to hold on to those fixations like a vendetta.  I'm not saying deny the past, but I am saying we should put in it's place as something that informs the future, and doesn't dictate it.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Starforge said:

Clearly you don't know much about server upkeep and resources required for a large playerbase. Think logically here for just a second if you'll indulge me for a moment. Do you really think the private server was given all of the resources to maintain a server for a large playerbase that the live servers had? Obviously, the answer is no. 

Seems to me that players don't mind kicking in to cover upkeep costs since monthly donation goals are being met within literally minutes.  Not sure what you said here is a reason to keep things secret.

[Sylar]

33 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Absolutely not all servers were invited. You just exemplified why:

This stance is very prevalent amongst the larger servers that were not invited. We want these talks to succeed, so it would be incredibly unwise for us to invite parties that strongly adhere to this belief to the table. It would only muddy the waters.

i dont speak for other servers, you took what i said out of context and adjusted it to sound like i represent other servers because that is what you guys do, NCSoft are the bad guys, that doesnt mean other servers shouldnt be given a chance, people are allowed to have an opinion, or can you not handle that?

 

so because the possibility of others feeling the same way as i do they cant be invited? nice to know, this is why HC is becoming totalatarian, if it doesnt fit with HC, then it wont fit anywhere.

[Starforge]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

Seems to me that players don't mind kicking in to cover upkeep costs since monthly donation goals are being met within literally minutes.  Not sure what you said here is a reason to keep things secret.

It was a comment on him saying the private server should have gone public a year into its existence. The fact was the player base was a fraction of what HC has and they had to wrap their heads around the goofy code. They weren't in a position to "go public" as much as some internet dwellers seem to think.

[Sylar]

1 minute ago, Starforge said:

It was a comment on him saying the private server should have gone public a year into its existence. The fact was the player base was a fraction of what HC has and they had to wrap their heads around the goofy code. They weren't in a position to "go public" as much as some internet dwellers seem to think.

i like how you can sit there and call me an "internet dweller" yet i answer your question and have yet to rebuttal what i wrote, just goes to show that the mindset of some folks here are "its our way or the high way" that stance is dangerous.

[Starforge]

2 minutes ago, Sylar said:

so because the possibility of others feeling the same way as i do they cant be invited? nice to know, this is why HC is becoming totalatarian, if it doesnt fit with HC, then it wont fit anywhere.

It's not rocket science, man. They don't want people involved who consistently bad-mouth the people they're trying to negotiate with. It's also just a video game so people that are still, 7 years after the fact, demonizing a company for shutting down a video game is a little too unhinged to have involved in a serious negotiation.

[roleki]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Seems to me that players don't mind kicking in to cover upkeep costs since monthly donation goals are being met within literally minutes.  Not sure what you said here is a reason to keep things secret.

I think what they are getting at is, the HC team had no idea how many people would storm their server, or how they would pay for the sudden surge in resource requirements, so there was good reason to be careful aside from the legal aspect.

[Sylar]

2 minutes ago, Starforge said:

It's not rocket science, man. They don't want people involved who consistently bad-mouth the people they're trying to negotiate with. It's also just a video game so people that are still, 7 years after the fact, demonizing a company for shutting down a video game is a little too unhinged to have involved in a serious negotiation.

you can dislike someone or their ethics and still work with them, you dont have to agree to everything a company does, thats called having a "free mind".

[Widower]

17 minutes ago, tafilr said:

I'm just sitting here reading this thread and came to the realization that if I were a volunteer staffer for Homecoming and I had to read this kind of stuff, I'd probably walk away.  

 

I mean, "GMs/Devs/DMs, how do you put up with this shite...and for free?"  

Very carefully.