Rage (yup again)

[Saiyajinzoningen]

So i read all umpteen pages of proposed rage changes before the thread got locked but, here is a suggestion i haven't seen yet.

So apparently they wanna spread the crash to resist, but halve its defense bit and they wanted to link it to uh double stacking. there was loads of umm negative feedback lol.

 

there were lots of suggestions and i'm not gonna list em here (id rather be playing) 

What my suggestion does is try to find a middle ground/balance.

 

how about u only experience the crash when u pair rage with hasten?

Both powers are supposed to have a crash of some sort.

 

Realistically u never even really notice either of them, depending on your build.

There are ways to build your toon to get double rage without hasten if that's your cup of tea.

 

the current (dev) proposed change gives a crash when rage is double-stacked. 

My beef with this change is even if you don't make recharge a priority and someone hits u with a time/rad/kinetic buff and yur rage is on auto, CRASH. 

Sure i could not have rage on auto but if i wanted to play "city of watch your power tray like a hawk" id play a kheldian.  

 

Double stacking rage is too easy and this seem to be the heart of the issue with the devs.

lots of powers have synergy. super jump+super speed / hover+teleport / Build up + Aim (i'm not gonna list em all)

There are also examples of powers having dysergy. Super speed + Flight / Granite armor + any travel power / T9 willpower strength of will + Hasten)

 

There are already precedents of hasten not working with some powers like shields T9 one with the shield.

[Razor Cure]

Is it so hard NOT to Fire rage that second time? Really? Rage is awesome, and the way I read teh proposed changes, it will only crash if stacked. So don't stack it, and enjoy?

15 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

There are already precedents of hasten not working with some powers like shields T9 one with the shield.

That powers, and SoW are not affected by ANY recharge. It is hardly just an exclusive with hasten.

[Captain Powerhouse]

I thought to start a new thread on this myself but might as well just post here:

 

I mentioned this on beta, but the crash avoidance mechanic has been rolled back and wont be going through. SS is going back to the drawing table. There are many issues with SS and Rage. Its extremely powerful solo [even with the nasty crash, IMO] but a weak base of damage and heavy reliance on self-damage-buffing means in groups the set can suffer, since they end up having a lower damage ceiling.

 

I don't have any numbers to share just yet, but my plan is to keep Rage a long duration click that stacks, however, it will be weakened in strength in exchange of having nearly every single power in the set improved enough for the set to remain competitive. All Rage crashes would, of course, be removed.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Galaxy Brain]

@Captain Powerhouse, how feasible would it be to add Proc damage based on a portion of power damage to circumvent damage ceiling issues?

 

If rage gave "+smashing damage proc = 80% of the power's damage" that would be essentially the same as a damage boost. But, this has the advantage of being outside the damage of the base power so you still get benefits as you get damage boosts.

[Vanden]

I hope it keeps the ToHit buff, that's an equally important portion of the power. Not to mention important for the power's slotting opportunities.

[Haijinx]

That kind of is the main gist. 

 

It has enough +DMG that well built characters can reliably bounce of the damage cap for much of the time with no buffing from other characters.

 

And in return some of its attack powers have pitiful base damage.       

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

I hope it keeps the ToHit buff, that's an equally important portion of the power. Not to mention important for the power's slotting opportunities.

you don't feel being able to run +40% to hit all the time a little bit OP?

[Vanden]

12 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

you don't feel being able to run +40% to hit all the time a little bit OP?

No.

[Hyperstrike]

24 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

you don't feel being able to run +40% to hit all the time a little bit OP?

Not just no. 

---> HELL NO! <---

 

Don't you feel being able to run +70% Recharge all the time to be a little bit OP?
You don't base changes to powers in the game on "feels".

You base it on DATA.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Hyperstrike

[Haijinx]

24 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Not just no. 

---> HELL NO! <---

 

Don't you feel being able to run +70% Recharge all the time to be a little bit OP?
You don't base changes to powers in the game on "feels".

You base it on DATA.

Difference being everyone can get hasten ... And IO sets can get you more than 70 even without hasten.

 

No one else can get +40 near perma +to hit, and you can only get 6% with IOs 

 

It helps to have a level of detachment when discussing this stuff.

[Razor Cure]

18 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

you don't feel being able to run +40% to hit all the time a little bit OP?

YES.

And to the people who said no..seriously? Really? Nothing else can get close. FocAcc is now acc, and no tohit (i also think the end cost should have been lowered with that change).

The to hit, for me, is a huge part of Rage's draw..the +damage, on a brute at least (only AT i have used it on) is nice, but with Fury, I feel its less of a be all and end all kinda thing. I Think during all my time playing that toon, I double stacked Rage maybe..twice? I didn't even build to stack it.

Rage, to me, as a word...via google ' violent uncontrollable anger. '

Which somehow translates into a HUGE accuracy boost? Yeah, ok.

Perhaps 40% to hit is somehow balanced with the 'low' damage of teh other powers? I saw 'lol' because I never felt they were super weak. Sure, maybe the T2 attack aint great..but what set does have a great T2? Footstomp also was (maybe until TW) the best AoE around, great damage and awesome mitigation, and SO fast.

 

 

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Difference being everyone can get hasten ... And IO sets can get you more than 70 even without hasten.

 

No one else can get +40 near perma +to hit, and you can only get 6% with IOs 

 

It helps to have a level of detachment when discussing this stuff.

It doesn't matter if it's +40 or +80 or +10000, you can't have more than 95% chance to hit, and any character can easily reach that level in 99% of situations with a modicum of smart building, without any ToHit buff at all. All it does is help you in the situation where you're up against tohit debuffs or foes with meaningful defense. And the advantage Super Strength has in those situations is no different from the advantages other sets enjoy in other situations, like Ice Armor against lots of slows, or Super Reflexes against defense debuffs.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It doesn't matter if it's +40 or +80 or +10000, you can't have more than 95% chance to hit, and any character can easily reach that level in 99% of situations with a modicum of smart building, without any ToHit buff at all. All it does is help you in the situation where you're up against tohit debuffs or foes with meaningful defense. And the advantage Super Strength has in those situations is no different from the advantages other sets enjoy in other situations, like Ice Armor against lots of slows, or Super Reflexes against defense debuffs.

Agreed. In most content, a single acc SO lets you hit about 95% of the time. A single SO plus any outside boosts is good for most all other content too.

[Hyperstrike]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It doesn't matter if it's +40 or +80 or +10000, you can't have more than 95% chance to hit, and any character can easily reach that level in 99% of situations with a modicum of smart building, without any ToHit buff at all. All it does is help you in the situation where you're up against tohit debuffs or foes with meaningful defense. And the advantage Super Strength has in those situations is no different from the advantages other sets enjoy in other situations, like Ice Armor against lots of slows, or Super Reflexes against defense debuffs.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Precisely This!

[Hyperstrike]

40%...

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 49 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 1: Jab -- Empty(A)
Level 2: [Empty]
Level 4: Maneuvers -- Ksm-ToHit+:30(A)
Level 6: Assault -- Empty(A)
Level 8: [Empty]
Level 10: [Empty]
Level 12: [Empty]
Level 14: Tactics -- ToHit-I:50(A), ToHit-I:50(15), ToHit-I:50(15)
Level 16: [Empty]
Level 18: Invincibility -- ToHit-I:50(A), ToHit-I:50(19), ToHit-I:50(19)
Level 20: [Empty]
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: Focused Accuracy -- ToHit-I:50(A), ToHit-I:50(36), ToHit-I:50(36)
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------

 

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[Haijinx]

45 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It doesn't matter if it's +40 or +80 or +10000, you can't have more than 95% chance to hit, and any character can easily reach that level in 99% of situations with a modicum of smart building, without any ToHit buff at all. All it does is help you in the situation where you're up against tohit debuffs or foes with meaningful defense. And the advantage Super Strength has in those situations is no different from the advantages other sets enjoy in other situations, like Ice Armor against lots of slows, or Super Reflexes against defense debuffs.

So ... assuming thus arguement actually holds water .. why does double rage to hit need to stay? 

[Haijinx]

28 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

40%...

Hero Plan by ... snip

Focused acc is acc now, not to hit .  For this reason. 

[krj12]

Seems like the best solution would be to just not allow it to double stack.   Either have it auto-cancel the current invocation of rage,  or just set it to not add any more damage beyond what you can get from one invocation.

 

 Problem solved, no rage crash needed.

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by krj12

[Haijinx]

46 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Agreed. In most content, a single acc SO lets you hit about 95% of the time. A single SO plus any outside boosts is good for most all other content too.

Kay .. lets say this is true .. so the driving force for needing it to stay is?

 

Or perhaps there are situations where it matters?

[Hyperstrike]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Kay .. lets say this is true .. so the driving force for needing it to stay is?

 

Or perhaps there are situations where it matters?

As has already been said.  Environments heavy with -ToHit.

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

As has already been said.  Environments heavy with -ToHit.

So it does matter then?  In that case isn't +40 to hit ( perma that others can't get) a bit OP?  

[Vanden]

18 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

So it does matter then?  In that case isn't +40 to hit ( perma that others can't get) a bit OP?  

Are you being intentionally obtuse? No, it isn't. And I explained why. If being able to ignore tohit debuffs or defense buffs is OP, then so is being able to ignore slows on an Ice Armor character, or defense debuffs on a Super Reflexes character, or any damage type on the defense set that specializes against it.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Vanden

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Are you being intentionally obtuse? No, it isn't. And I explained why.

Obtuse, no? 

 

Im trying to understand how a permable double build up is not potentially OP from a to hit stand point when only one set can do it?

 

Most sets need to scrape by with either a low uptime or a reduced modifier. 

 

Its proposed that it doesn't matter and thus its okay to keep.   But if it doesn't matter then why keep the outlier?  

 

But if it does matter sometimes, well then, the fact its the best to hit available by a good margin would matter a lot more.  

 

I suggest it is actually the reason  proponents want it kept.  A clear advantage in certain parts of the game. 

 

Now maybe that is considered justified?  I personally think its OP.  

 

But when the proponents seek to minimize what it is as part of their arguement, it makes me wonder why.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Obtuse, no? 

 

Im trying to understand how a permable double build up is not potentially OP from a to hit stand point when only one set can do it?

 

Most sets need to scrape by with either a low uptime or a reduced modifier. 

 

Its proposed that it doesn't matter and thus its okay to keep.   But if it doesn't matter then why keep the outlier?  

 

But if it does matter sometimes, well then, the fact its the best to hit available by a good margin would matter a lot more.  

 

I suggest it is actually the reason  proponents want it kept.  A clear advantage in certain parts of the game. 

 

Now maybe that is considered justified?  I personally think its OP.  

 

But when the proponents seek to minimize what it is as part of their arguement, it makes me wonder why.

Only one set can ignore slows. Only one set can ignore defense debuffs. Are they OP? I don't think they are. And it's not only Super Strength that can build for ToHit. Anyone can take and slot Tactics and the Kismet IO. Any melee AT can grab Focused Accuracy. Further, you don't get permanent 40% +tohit for free just for picking Super Strength, you need to build for a fair amount of global +Recharge, and 40% hardly makes you immune to ToHit debuffs. Debuff-heavy groups can easily stack more than -40 tohit on one target, and since Super Strength is only available on tanking ATs, those debuffs are going to be coming their way.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Only one set can ignore slows. Only one set can ignore defense debuffs. Are they OP? I don't think they are. And it's not only Super Strength that can build for ToHit. Anyone can take and slot Tactics and the Kismet IO. Any melee AT can grab Focused Accuracy. Further, you don't get permanent 40% +tohit for free just for picking Super Strength, you need to build for a fair amount of global +Recharge, and 40% hardly makes you immune to ToHit debuffs. Debuff-heavy groups can easily stack more than -40 tohit on one target, and since Super Strength is only available on tanking ATs, those debuffs are going to be coming their way.

Arguing you want a clear advantage for this set for a part of the game that does exist is at least a genuine arguement.

 

Super Strength ironically is the best set for fighting bad guys who are often ghostlike.