The Current PUG Meta (aka ramblings of an old man)

[Coyote]

18 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

Play on a team of 3-5 players.

 

When character power creeps to where you EXPECT high-level characters to play at +2/x2 at a minimum, then having 4 characters on a team maxes out the spawn sizes. So, as you add players, you increase the power of the player's team, but the power of the computer's "team" stays the same since the spawns are already maxed out. So, once you reach max spawn size, increasing the team drops the difficulty level.

 

If you don't like high-level steamrolling, you need to stop increasing the team size once the spawns are maxed out. As Shred Monkey has said, 3-5 is a solid balance between having enough characters to feel like a team rather than a duo, but not overwhelming the spawns with twice as many characters as were needed to max out the opposition.

[Shred Monkey]

6 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

I disagree strongly, I met my wife on a PUG in Bricks 😛

I guess that really was a "pick-up" group.  and Grats!   

 

(It's pretty cool you remember the zone where you two met.)

[Heraclea]

32 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

When character power creeps to where you EXPECT high-level characters to play at +2/x2 at a minimum, then having 4 characters on a team maxes out the spawn sizes.

For some zones like New Dark Astoria, you have to run at +1 to +3 to get baseline white minions.  This depends on the state of your incarnates. 

 

I will usually be on a tanker joining PUGs, and tend not to mind what they do.

[AWOL]

While a few people have quibbled on exactly when the changes happened which they may be right about, my aging memory (and periods of disengagement from the game)  mean I am no authority here... I have to say that I think the Incarnate system made players overpowered and a consequence of this, which some see as freedom, means that raw damage (particularly AOE damage) is the most important factor in game play.  I run on many teams without a defender (or similar support from other ATs) and there is no issue. I have heard melee characters frequently say "who needs healing".  Personally I miss the times when everyone appreciated what defenders brought to a party and felt that this mix is important.  I occasionally play in weaker groups (e.g. new L50s with poor gear, unfamiliar with the fights, and no incarnates) and they do struggle without defenders.  Crowd Control is similarly only appreciated in the "newer 50s"/"weaker" groups.  However soon enough everyone has there set of T4 incarnates and everything is easy.

 

I know there are ways around this but finding people that want to make life difficult for themselves (with a lowish population) server is difficult and I can appreciate how people sometimes want an easy run.

 

So.. I'd like to see balance introduced that didn't make certain ATs or powersets mandatory but did encourage people to have a good mix and bring a Controller/Defender etc.

Until coming back to the game with Homecoming I had always played defenders (you couldn't have guessed, eh) but I find that corrupters in the end game bring enough support and more raw damage and therefore am finding my corrupter bring more value to teams.  I think this is a bit disappointing.

 

Incarnate power had effects beyond giving everyone buff and heal options they also made AOE more common so the playstyle is that everyone is an AOE king which detracts from some powersets/ATs too.  This again undermined the value of certain builds including AOE damage builds and debuff/buff builds as anchors and targets are dead before the debuff/anchored powers have had time to take effect.  We've all became a bit more like each other and personally I think it's possible to get flabby and lethargic if one indulges in cake all day.

 

[Abraxus]

I just played an Emp Defender to 50, and have 4 out of 6 Incarnate slots at T3.  While I agree that there is perhaps less NEED for heals/buffs etc. in the late game, they are still needed.  I find myself still throwing a heal on someone who is getting pounded on, throwing adrenaline boost on someone who hasn't quite solved their endurance issues yet, and no damage dealer would ever say "Nah!  I don't need your damage buff!".  There is also the three AOE toggles that run constantly giving damage/defense/to-hit bonuses to anyone in the vicinity (you're welcome).  So, while I might not always be furiously working to keep folks alive, I find there is still enough to do to feel relevant.  Besides...if one is playing a Defender, you have pretty much taken on the mantle of making others more powerful than they typically are anyway.  So, being the hero themselves is typically not what they are about.  I have always been ok with that on my Defender.  If I want to be the hero, I'll get out a Blaster, a Scrapper, a Brute, or a Tank.  Perhaps even a Dominator.  In the roles of all my alts, those are the guys who do things that actively draw aggro, and take the risks.  I know there are other ATs that do, I just don't typically play them, so I can't speak to their proper use.  But, I have had, and continue to have fun with my EMP Defender.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Abraxus

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, AWOL said:

While a few people have quibbled on exactly when the changes happened which they may be right about, my aging memory (and periods of disengagement from the game)  mean I am no authority here... I have to say that I think the Incarnate system made players overpowered and a consequence of this, which some see as freedom, means that raw damage (particularly AOE damage) is the most important factor in game play.  I run on many teams without a defender (or similar support from other ATs) and there is no issue. I have heard melee characters frequently say "who needs healing".  Personally I miss the times when everyone appreciated what defenders brought to a party and felt that this mix is important.  I occasionally play in weaker groups (e.g. new L50s with poor gear, unfamiliar with the fights, and no incarnates) and they do struggle without defenders.  Crowd Control is similarly only appreciated in the "newer 50s"/"weaker" groups.  However soon enough everyone has there set of T4 incarnates and everything is easy.

 

I know there are ways around this but finding people that want to make life difficult for themselves (with a lowish population) server is difficult and I can appreciate how people sometimes want an easy run.

 

So.. I'd like to see balance introduced that didn't make certain ATs or powersets mandatory but did encourage people to have a good mix and bring a Controller/Defender etc.

Until coming back to the game with Homecoming I had always played defenders (you couldn't have guessed, eh) but I find that corrupters in the end game bring enough support and more raw damage and therefore am finding my corrupter bring more value to teams.  I think this is a bit disappointing.

 

Incarnate power had effects beyond giving everyone buff and heal options they also made AOE more common so the playstyle is that everyone is an AOE king which detracts from some powersets/ATs too.  This again undermined the value of certain builds including AOE damage builds and debuff/buff builds as anchors and targets are dead before the debuff/anchored powers have had time to take effect.  We've all became a bit more like each other and personally I think it's possible to get flabby and lethargic if one indulges in cake all day.

 

And I would like to NEVER see this change. thanks but not thanks.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

And I would like to NEVER see this change. thanks but not thanks.

Why?

[Omega-202]

44 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Why?

Some people prefer the option to play a superhero game where they feel like Superman, not Hawkeye.  Weird concept right?

[Solarverse]

19 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Some people prefer the option to play a superhero game where they feel like Superman, not Hawkeye.  Weird concept right?

 I don't think that's what his post indicated. I think you read that wrong

[Omega-202]

3 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 I don't think that's what his post indicated. I think you read that wrong

I admit, maybe not the only interpretation but that's how I read it.  The bolded part indicated that they didn't want to feel reliant on a specific AT composition.  I take that as wanting to feel self-reliant and not needing to depend on having specific support structures to function as a team.  Kind of like being Superman as a part of the Justice League where everyone is pretty self sufficient, as opposed to Hawkeye who is kind of niche.

[ILIWAPCT]

Define terms

 

The issue isn't PUG meta. You're specifically talking about COH not COV. You specified that you don't like/play COV.

 

Why are terms important?

 

PUG/Teaming COV side isn't a issue because most players are on blue side.

 

The game began with archetypes blue side then mirror one's red side. Eventually blue side complained enough to get red side archetypes on the blue side. Players aren't dumb. Their taking the best of both worlds. Of course this disrupts everything because the game was designed around a blue side and a red side with a few co-op missions in-between. This results in the number 1 and number 2 archetypes (historically red) being the most played on blue side.

 

Once the Pandora's box was opened, you have to live with it. Blue side people are steam rolling over content. Red side we're lucky to find a team once a month. Tanker's are clamoring for a buff because players prefer the red side mirror. 

 

The meta is blue side.

[golstat2003]

20 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

I admit, maybe not the only interpretation but that's how I read it.  The bolded part indicated that they didn't want to feel reliant on a specific AT composition.  I take that as wanting to feel self-reliant and not needing to depend on having specific support structures to function as a team.  Kind of like being Superman as a part of the Justice League where everyone is pretty self sufficient, as opposed to Hawkeye who is kind of niche.

Kinda. Pretty much you can roll with whatever right now on City of Heroes and team does fine. No need to wait around for a tank, defenders, corrupter, etc. What I bolded is the opposite of that. Hence, my thanks but no thanks. Changing that to me would be a terrible, backwards change. There are other servers to play on besides Homecoming if folks want that type of feeling back.

 

Once again I'm responded to this line below. Once again, thanks but no thanks. There's no need to encourage that.

 

So.. I'd like to see balance introduced that didn't make certain ATs or powersets mandatory but did encourage people to have a good mix and bring a Controller/Defender etc.

Edited November 19, 2019 by golstat2003

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Omega-202 said:

I admit, maybe not the only interpretation but that's how I read it.  The bolded part indicated that they didn't want to feel reliant on a specific AT composition.  I take that as wanting to feel self-reliant and not needing to depend on having specific support structures to function as a team.  Kind of like being Superman as a part of the Justice League where everyone is pretty self sufficient, as opposed to Hawkeye who is kind of niche.

I think he just wants healers/buffers and trollers to be more wanted/needed than what they currently are. I could be mistaken, but that's how I understood it. 

[Omega-202]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I think he just wants healers/buffers and trollers to be more wanted/needed than what they currently are. I could be mistaken, but that's how I understood it. 

See their above response.  They meant the exact opposite of what you just said.

[nzer]

16 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

See their above response.  They meant the exact opposite of what you just said.

The person who said it hasn't responded since saying it, so what response are talking about exactly?

[Omega-202]

2 hours ago, nzer said:

The person who said it hasn't responded since saying it, so what response are talking about exactly?

Golstat did respond.  

 

6 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Kinda. Pretty much you can roll with whatever right now on City of Heroes and team does fine. No need to wait around for a tank, defenders, corrupter, etc. What I bolded is the opposite of that. Hence, my thanks but no thanks. Changing that to me would be a terrible, backwards change. There are other servers to play on besides Homecoming if folks want that type of feeling back.

 

Once again I'm responded to this line below. Once again, thanks but no thanks. There's no need to encourage that.

 

So.. I'd like to see balance introduced that didn't make certain ATs or powersets mandatory but did encourage people to have a good mix and bring a Controller/Defender etc.

What are YOU talking about exactly?

 

Honestly, what is wrong with people on these forums recently?  Nobody seems to be here to discuss and everyone seems like they're looking for an argument.  Chill the hell out.

[nzer]

4 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Golstat did respond. 

Solarverse is talking about AWOL, not golstat.

[Omega-202]

42 minutes ago, nzer said:

Solarverse is talking about AWOL, not golstat.

Solarverse was responding to my comment on Golstat's post responding to AWOL.  If they meant to comment on AWOL, then they did not make that clear in any way.  

[nzer]

4 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Solarverse was responding to my comment on Golstat's post responding to AWOL.  If they meant to comment on AWOL, then they did not make that clear in any way.  

They literally repeated AWOL's argument nearly verbatim, of course they were talking about AWOL.

[Omega-202]

8 minutes ago, nzer said:

They literally repeated AWOL's argument nearly verbatim, of course they were talking about AWOL.

...which was started by quoting my comment which referred specifically to Golstat's post.  

 

Obviously you just want someone to argue with over literally nothing.  Go have yourself a nice night and I hope what ever is bugging you gets better.

[nzer]

2 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

...which was started by quoting my comment which referred specifically to Golstat's post.  

 

Obviously you just want someone to argue with over literally nothing.  Go have yourself a nice night and I hope what ever is bugging you gets better.

You can't claim to want actual discussion then dismiss a complete misunderstanding of the discussion as "literally nothing." I apologize if my attempt to get the discussion back on track upset you.

 

And now that we are back on track, I have to agree with AWOL and Solarverse; having a balanced team comp should be important, albeit not required. One of this game's biggest strengths is that it has a robust set of classes capable of providing distinct yet mutually synergistic benefits to a team, and that it actually incentivizes capitalizing on those synergies whenever possible. That's a rare thing nowadays, and tossing it aside so some people can feel a little more like Superman is failing to see the forest for the trees IMO.

[boggo2300]

16 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I guess that really was a "pick-up" group.  and Grats!   

 

(It's pretty cool you remember the zone where you two met.)

Nice crop of corn you're raising there 😄

 

I even remember the first thing I said to her in team chat "Hello Lunch, we'll be teammates" (my WS has this whole eating souls thing as his schtick) but we didn't even really get together for more than a year after we met

Edited November 20, 2019 by boggo2300

[Solarverse]

Calm down fellas, I got the answer from Golstat. He doesn't agree. Although I do not agree with Golstat, I respect that he doesn't agree. No need to make a fuss about it, he has a right to disagree without being hammered over it. I think every AT should feel like they contribute greatly to a team, rather than, "meh, I can do it without them, but okay" type of game. He believe you should be able to run with all melee DPS and do just fine. He has his reasons, I have mine, they conflict, but no reason to argue about it. Some agree with him like Omega, some agree with me like AWOL.

 

In other words, my question was answered so no need to beat each other up over a miscommunication or misunderstanding. Let it ride, my fine super powered heroes.

[Coyotedancer]

22 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Why?

My concern would be the effect it would have on solos and duo/trio/"small team" players...

The "Oh crud. We're just going to get *wrecked* by Rewritten Arc X. Because neither of us is Archetype Y or Powerset Z"-situation.

 

One of the things that really makes this game great, at least in my opinion, is its flexibility. Want to run on a full team of 8? It supports that. Want to solo? You can do that, too. Want to team up with a couple of besties and smack some Council goons around while you're having a IC pun-war in team chat? Yep! The game works just fine for a small team.

 

And, just as importantly, with some mission-scale tinkering you can do those things with just about ANY character, or combination of them. All-Defender TF? All-Melee ship raid? Two crazy Stalkers and a Brute? A matched pair of Illusion Controllers? It all works just fine. 

 

Each situation has its merits and each has its fans. I've done all of those things myself. That makes me very, VERY wary of proposed changes that would threaten that flexibility. Like adding or rewriting content to "encourage" (ie: add a de facto requirement-) for specific team/character compositions.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Coyotedancer

[Solarverse]

33 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

My concern would be the effect it would have on solos and duo/trio/"small team" players...

The "Oh crud. We're just going to get *wrecked* by Rewritten Arc X. Because neither of us is Archetype Y or Powerset Z"-situation.

 

One of the things that really makes this game great, at least in my opinion, is its flexibility. Want to run on a full team of 8? It supports that. Want to solo? You can do that, too. Want to team up with a couple of besties and smack some Council goons around while you're having a IC pun-war in team chat? Yep! The game works just fine for a small team.

 

And, just as importantly, with some mission-scale tinkering you can do those things with just about ANY character, or combination of them. All-Defender TF? All-Melee ship raid? Two crazy Stalkers and a Brute? A matched pair of Illusion Controllers? It all works just fine. 

 

Each situation has its merits and each has its fans. I've done all of those things myself. That makes me very, VERY wary of proposed changes that would threaten that flexibility. Like adding or rewriting content to "encourage" (ie: add a de facto requirement-) for specific team/character compositions.

 

Yeah, would probably be better if there were end game content created that simply could not be done without a well rounded team. Probably the fairest way to go about it.