Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for December 6, 2019

[Replacement]

As a counterpoint to my Shield/Kin experience, I built another level 30.  This time dark/spines.  You can see it's obviously built to the strengths of the current beta build.  I used level 30 basic IOs, except I did also put in a -KB and a Theft of Essence Endurance drain (and I think it says a lot about Dark Armor that you need both of these to not be frustrated constantly).

 

Subjective feedback: it's really fun.  At level 30, I don't have aoe coming out the ears, but what I do have is obviously a lot more usable than the shield/kin had.  Some immob or knockdown procs in my auras would make this a really fun build in party or solo, just because it feels like "no one's safe" with the increased aura radii. 

 

I spent Brickstown radio missions gathering up 2-4 spawns and then locking them down with large stun aura while plopping out big spine bursts and rippers (though I don't think Ripper is getting any benefit from the current build?).  This was simple, fun, effective -- basically, it felt like "doing my job is also fun."

 

If anyone has ideas for objective tests I could run (that are not comparing vs Live), I'm all ears.  But I do think these "feel" tests are important, since so much of Tankers' issue is "I don't feel awesome" like the feeling you get with the other 3 melee ATs.

 

At the end of the day: Most of the current changes on Pineapple boil down to "your ST performance is basically the same, but your AoE performance now rocks."  I really like this idea and direction, but it doesn't sit well when playing ST-heavy sets.

 

What can we do to combat this?

Method #1: manual improvements to the sets found to underperform in the wake of these changes.  Straight up damage/recharge buffs above the design formulae to make Tanker ST sets feel good.

 

Method #2: you already have Gauntlet replaced with a global proc that a) tags all enemies hit by an aoe and b) creates a small aoe effect around ST effects, right?  Just how feasible is it to shift the added +0.15 damage scale to that proc, thus giving all tanker attacks aoe?

 

Even if there's no programming challenges to implement that (lol), you would still need to determine damage type.  Would it be possible to, on map load, walk through an obnoxious ElseIf test to determine which primary a tanker has and determine damage proc accordingly?  Fiery aura adds .15 scale damage to your attacks as fire, electric armor as energy, Willpower as Psy, uncertain sets add as Smashing and Lethal.

 

Yeah, this is a big Ask... but it would make Tankers feel interesting, and put their armor decision central to the character's fiction.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Replacement

[Replacement]

Taunt -Range penalty increased from 75% to 100%:

Has anyone else seen this not forcing things to stand on your toes as expected?  Arachnos Drones, for example, continue to hover about 20' away from me.  Please let me know if anyone else is seeing this or if I need to get rigorous with reproducing (I kept seeing this when I had a lot of dudes on me, so I may have been over aggro cap).

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

Taunt -Range penalty increased from 75% to 100%:

Has anyone else seen this not forcing things to stand on your toes as expected?  Arachnos Drones, for example, continue to hover about 20' away from me.  Please let me know if anyone else is seeing this or if I need to get rigorous with reproducing (I kept seeing this when I had a lot of dudes on me, so I may have been over aggro cap).

I'll admit, I haven't been testing this patch on the beta server beyond a few specific checks I did early in the thread. Did the drones attack while staying out, indicating that the -range was not working against them, or did they just float around not attacking - which would mean that the -range was working but since they have no melee attacks I'm guessing that the AI possibly didn't close because it would have no useable attacks regardless of range (and honestly, probably should have fled)?

 

Edit: never mind, unless there was a change to the minimum range cap the -100% is only to increase the effect against higher level mobs. The minimum range is 25% of base for effects that reduce range (after I posted, I thought that seemed wrong so I checked here). With that in mind, I'm guessing that it's probably an aggro cap issue.

Edited December 26, 2019 by siolfir

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Edit: never mind, unless there was a change to the minimum range cap the -100% is only to increase the effect against higher level mobs. The minimum range is 25% of base for effects that reduce range (after I posted, I thought that seemed wrong so I checked here). With that in mind, I'm guessing that it's probably an aggro cap issue.

Thanks, this explains it.  This means they should be behaving exactly as they would on Live and I'm not crazy.  I don't even need aggro cap to explain it.

[Captain Powerhouse]

23 hours ago, Replacement said:

Taunt -Range penalty increased from 75% to 100%:

Has anyone else seen this not forcing things to stand on your toes as expected?  Arachnos Drones, for example, continue to hover about 20' away from me.  Please let me know if anyone else is seeing this or if I need to get rigorous with reproducing (I kept seeing this when I had a lot of dudes on me, so I may have been over aggro cap).

 

As any debuff, this is resisted by the purple patch. If you fought anything that was not even, the debuff wold not be 100%. At a base 100% its very straightforward to determine the apropiate +level:

 

Tanker    
Even    -100%
+1    -90%
+2    -80%
+3    -65%
+4    -48%
    
Brute:    
Even    -75%
+1    -68%
+2    -60%
+3    -49%
+4    -36%

 

Also something I might had forgotten to mention: brute version of the debuff lasts 12 seconds, tanker version lasts 20 seconds. Both versions stack so you can double-stack it if needed.

 

 

21 hours ago, siolfir said:

Edit: never mind, unless there was a change to the minimum range cap the -100% is only to increase the effect against higher level mobs. The minimum range is 25% of base for effects that reduce range (after I posted, I thought that seemed wrong so I checked here). With that in mind, I'm guessing that it's probably an aggro cap issue.

 

This is not accurate. The min -range strength (for most entities) is 0%. At least in data, not aware there being a hard-cap on range in the code.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Gulbasaur]

Could someone verify for me if AoE powers like Dark Regeneration (attacks them, heals you) and Dark Consumption (same, but End) have the higher target cap and radius?

 

Thanks

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

This is not accurate. The min -range strength (for most entities) is 0%. At least in data, not aware there being a hard-cap on range in the code.

 

Good to know, thanks for the clarification.

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

As any debuff, this is resisted by the purple patch. If you fought anything that was not even, the debuff wold not be 100%. At a base 100% its very straightforward to determine the apropiate +level:

 

Tanker    
Even    -100%
+1    -90%
+2    -80%
+3    -65%
+4    -48%
    
Brute:    
Even    -75%
+1    -68%
+2    -60%
+3    -49%
+4    -36%

 

Also something I might had forgotten to mention: brute version of the debuff lasts 12 seconds, tanker version lasts 20 seconds. Both versions stack so you can double-stack it if needed.

 

 

 

This is not accurate. The min -range strength (for most entities) is 0%. At least in data, not aware there being a hard-cap on range in the code.

 

Thanks, that explains quite a bit.  I guess this means i should care more about taunt's Recharge.

[Myrmidon]

On 12/27/2019 at 2:28 PM, Replacement said:

Thanks, that explains quite a bit.  I guess this means i should care more about taunt's Recharge.

Not really. +Recharge from IOs covers it well enough; just toss either a Taunt IO or Proc into it and you’ll be fine.

[csr]

On 12/27/2019 at 9:50 AM, Gulbasaur said:

Could someone verify for me if AoE powers like Dark Regeneration (attacks them, heals you) and Dark Consumption (same, but End) have the higher target cap and radius?

 

Thanks

Many do, many don't.  Unfortunately, the documentation is still less than ideal for this.  The rules are:

• Sphere AoE powers with a radius larger than 10' will ignore the inherent area buff.
• Cone powers with an arc greater than 90 degree will ignore the inherent area buff.
• Powers marked as doing so in their description will ignore the inherent area buff.
• There are still some powers that seem to ignore the buff despite none of the above being true (Whirlwind and Takeoff are the only two I've found so far).
• Target caps are listed in the power data.  To see if they're being raised you have to compare between live and Pineapple.

Specifically, Dark Consumption gets both radius (8' buffed to 12' by the inherent) and target cap increases (10 to 16) while Dark Regeneration gets neither (20' radius, 10 target cap).

[Azra]

Master PowerHouse.

 

Taunt stops incoming Range damage or debuffs it's effectiveness?  

 

I normally put a a single recharge in it and smack talk trash talk the mobs for a couple of rounds and then 'corner' pull.

 

Any timeline on being able to change the taunt voice?  Eg.  Hurr! is vile.  I'd like the option to change to the classier 'Ahh....'

 

Regards,

 

Azra.

 

PS.  I'd like the 120 end back.  Ran out of pop in Brickstown on my Invul/Dark Tank.  Hard as nails but...

 

PPS.  Damage still sucks on tankers.

 

PPPS.  Yes, I was playing on live.  That's where tankers are at.  Breathing hard mamby pamby hitters.  Run out of juicy hitting red mobs in Bricks.  Sure.  Can last the fight if all I do is taunt and don't attack.

 

Yes.  I  know I'm a 'god.'  But a 'god' that doesn't do any damage.

 

PPPPS.  Tap, tap, tap....tap, tap, tap, PRESS FLASHING MIGHT BUTTON, BOOM!  KRACK, THOOM!  BOOSH!  BAMMMM! etc.  Tap, Tap, Tap, Tap....  Sounds great to me.  It's better than just 'tapping that.'

Edited January 4, 2020 by Azra

[VanguardXL]

2 hours ago, Azra said:

Master PowerHouse.

 

Taunt stops incoming Range damage or debuffs it's effectiveness?  

 

Neither. It reduces their max range, so they are forced to close in to use the same attacks.

Edited January 4, 2020 by VanguardXL
Put post in quote area, not post area.

[Azra]

Yeah.  That's what I meant.  They are forced to come in close thus reducing their ranged attacks and damage (they can't do either if they are forced to come in close to you?) so you can mash them in the face...with love tap damage.

 

I still want the 'ahhh...'  not the 'urgh!'

 

Azra.

[Caulderone]

Ooh.  Beta just patched something.

 

edit:  nothing patched here yet.  Other stuff.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Caulderone

[summers]

On 12/28/2019 at 2:52 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

This is not accurate. The min -range strength (for most entities) is 0%. At least in data, not aware there being a hard-cap on range in the code.

 

 

Unless this is changed, as back on live it was 25%:

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits

 

Range
Note: Melee attacks ignore Range modifiers.

Maximum
Players and critters have a maximum Range of 500%.

Minimum
Players and critters have a minimum Range of 25%.

Edited January 5, 2020 by summers

[siolfir]

12 hours ago, summers said:

 

Unless this is changed, as back on live it was 25%:

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits

 

Range
Note: Melee attacks ignore Range modifiers.

Maximum
Players and critters have a maximum Range of 500%.

Minimum
Players and critters have a minimum Range of 25%.

I linked to the same post and acknowledged that it was different than my expectations based on live. I haven't downloaded the source code to check and see if the limit is 25% via code (I'm lazy) or if there was a change made by the SCORE team, but I'm willing to accept that it was checked before posting.

[ironjoe]

On 12/20/2019 at 6:14 PM, Leogunner said:

Are you taking into account the live melee damage modifier for Tanker is lower than the melee damage mod for Tanker on beta?

That was showing the self +Damage numbers. But running through groups the damage inflicted numbers are also lower on Beta due to the self +damage nerf. I was seeing around an 18%-20% damage decrease per target. 

[AlienMafia]

I've been worried about too much blending of tankers to brutes. Seems like we are getting 2 ATs that are too similar to each other.

[golstat2003]

18 minutes ago, AlienMafia said:

I've been worried about too much blending of tankers to brutes. Seems like we are getting 2 ATs that are too similar to each other.

I'm fine with that for now. They should get the changes out as soon as possible and if further tweaks are needed then they can go ahead and adjust after the fact with further patches.

[Yellowjacket]

Will the target cap for Ice Melee's frost be increased 16? Literally the only advantage ice melee has damage-wise over other sets is the higher 10-target cap on its cone and it is a defining feature of the set.

[AlienMafia]

51 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I'm fine with that for now. They should get the changes out as soon as possible and if further tweaks are needed then they can go ahead and adjust after the fact with further patches.

Let me say it a different way. Since CoH and CoV merged, there has been an underlying theme of "what's the point of playing a tanker when brutes can survive just about just as well and do hell of a lot more damage than tanks" and we've been hearing that since then and now HCs goal is to make the lines between Tanks and brutes even closer and less clear defining purpose for 2 different ATs. I hate these changes and a direction that is wrong in my opinion. We should Just delete the tanker AT all together and move these changes and stats to brute along with punchvoke.

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, AlienMafia said:

Let me say it a different way. Since CoH and CoV merged, there has been an underlying theme of "what's the point of playing a tanker when brutes can survive just about just as well and do hell of a lot more damage than tanks" and we've been hearing that since then and now HCs goal is to make the lines between Tanks and brutes even closer and less clear defining purpose for 2 different ATs. I hate these changes and a direction that is wrong in my opinion. We should Just delete the tanker AT all together and move these changes and stats to brute along with punchvoke.

Agree to disagree.

[Replacement]

On 1/5/2020 at 2:23 AM, summers said:

 

Unless this is changed, as back on live it was 25%:

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits

 

Range
Note: Melee attacks ignore Range modifiers.

Maximum
Players and critters have a maximum Range of 500%.

Minimum
Players and critters have a minimum Range of 25%.

Wikis have been wrong before, and it wasn't written with access to source code, so I just assumed CP was right. 

 

Either way, it works out the same: things will limit the effectiveness of the -range, and upping Taunt to -100% doesn't necessarily make everything camp on your toes as much as make sure they're reliably closer to you than they would be at -75%.

[ironjoe]

18 hours ago, ironjoe said:

That was showing the self +Damage numbers. But running through groups the damage inflicted numbers are also lower on Beta due to the self +damage nerf. I was seeing around an 18%-20% damage decrease per target. 

I did a second test. This time tossing in jab. Without Against All Odds Beta becomes a buff to Jab and only a 2-5% nerf to Knock Out Blow and 1-2% nerf to foot stomp. So not too huge  but when I brought in a crowd around for the Pylon Test that is when I saw Knock Out Blow hitting for 20% less on beta compared to live and foot stomp was 5% on beta compared to live. That is what I could see from the damage numbers before even counting in the reduction of losing bruising. I don't know all the math on the back end so I will let those that know that argue that and just report what I was seeing on one of the sets that depend on self +damage a lot. Personally I would have preferred skipping leveling damage between the two ATs and instead applied an adjusted form of bruising on all tank attacks. 

[AlienMafia]

6 minutes ago, ironjoe said:

I did a second test. This time tossing in jab. Without Against All Odds Beta becomes a buff to Jab and only a 2-5% nerf to Knock Out Blow and 1-2% nerf to foot stomp. So not too huge  but when I brought in a crowd around for the Pylon Test that is when I saw Knock Out Blow hitting for 20% less on beta compared to live and foot stomp was 5% on beta compared to live. That is what I could see from the damage numbers before even counting in the reduction of losing bruising. I don't know all the math on the back end so I will let those that know that argue that and just report what I was seeing on one of the sets that depend on self +damage a lot. Personally I would have preferred skipping leveling damage between the two ATs and instead applied an adjusted form of bruising on all tank attacks. 

Agreed. Bruising was 1 thing that set it apart, its value was great. An increase of damage for the team or league even when damage is capped