Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for December 6, 2019

[Myrmidon]

20 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

On my test you still will have a hard time to get over 80% fury consistently, the change mostly allows a very active brute also get there without having a ton of aggro on them so long they are on a group (and near the group.)

 

That ATO will still be very useful.

If all of these changes go live, you’ll likely be glad to have it. Pulling aggro from a Tanker is going to be less common, which is why the Brute Fury “buffs” are being added in the first place.

[Brutal Justice]

4 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

If all of these changes go live, you’ll likely be glad to have it. Pulling aggro from a Tanker is going to be less common, which is why the Brute Fury “buffs” are being added in the first place.

Because brutes need a buff...

[honoraryorange]

3 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Quills is the power that should had been flagged to ignore radius buffs, not Spine Burst.

Wait, so are auras not getting buffed at all? They're going to stay tiny?

[Myrmidon]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

Because brutes need a buff...

Honestly, I see it less as a buff and more as a rebalance so that we don’t have to slough through  300-page “Brutes Suck!!!!!” threads by this time next year.

[Captain Powerhouse]

The buff is specifically targetted to secondary brutes in groups, a second brute in a group (or a brute that didnt main tank) always had a hard time maintaining decent fury levels. It's something that was never addressed because of how similar of an issue to tankers it was, and fixing it when tanker's secondary tank issues were unaddressed was just not fair.

 

That said: the fury change is still under consideration and will likely be adjusted further (not upwards.)

 

7 minutes ago, honoraryorange said:

Wait, so are auras not getting buffed at all? They're going to stay tiny?

 

Only this specific one.

[honoraryorange]

1 minute ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Only this specific one.

Ahh interesting - Can I ask why this one? What makes it different from Fire Aura's or Ice Armor's damage auras? Just being from a primary rather than secondary?

Edited December 7, 2019 by honoraryorange

[Captain Powerhouse]

Because the set already has too much AoE. Similar story to Titan Weapons and Claws. All 3 sets might be reviewed in the future, but without heavy re-balance that is what they get for now.

[honoraryorange]

10 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Because the set already has too much AoE. Similar story to Titan Weapons and Claws. All 3 sets might be reviewed in the future, but without heavy re-balance that is what they get for now.

Ahh that makes sense. When I popped onto Pineapple I saw that Throw spines was excluded and that makes sense because it is a freaking huge area already but was wondering about Quills.

 

So Spine Burst is a net no change (reduce to 10, buffed back to 15). 

 

So the only power actually changing with Spines is Ripper which should be going up to a huge 180 degree arc but remain pretty short in terms of range?

 

Separate question - War Mace crowd control is not excluded. Does that mean it is going from 180 degrees to 360?

Edited December 7, 2019 by honoraryorange

[Brutal Justice]

2 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The buff is specifically targetted to secondary brutes in groups, a second brute in a group (or a brute that didnt main tank) always had a hard time maintaining decent fury levels. It's something that was never addressed because of how similar of an issue to tankers it was, and fixing it when tanker's secondary tank issues were unaddressed was just not fair.

 

That said: the fury change is still under consideration and will likely be adjusted further (not upwards.)

 

 

Only this specific one.

This “issue” with brutes is THE one thing that gives them any sort of balance inside of paragon city.  The only thing scrappers have on brutes is damage on-demand, unaffected by teammates.  

 

Making it easier for a brute to build and maintain fury devalues scrappers by making their damage more “on-demand”.  

 

If the tank changes must result in a brute buff then things need to be left as they are.  Tanks just need something more creative than +dam.  

 

If that proves to be too labor intensive, then to help tanks, brutes need to be adjusted downward.  Removing punchvoke from brutes could solve all the issues.  

 

Brutes would still have very high potential for damage and survival. They would play differently from scrappers.  They wouldn’t hold aggro like a tank.  

 

Its still crazy how trying to help tanks always ends up buffing brutes, ala gauntlet.  It was given to brutes to help redside.  It never should have been.  At the very least it should have been removed with going rogue. 

 

 

[Riverdusk]

7 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

This “issue” with brutes is THE one thing that gives them any sort of balance inside of paragon city.  The only thing scrappers have on brutes is damage on-demand, unaffected by teammates.  

 

Making it easier for a brute to build and maintain fury devalues scrappers by making their damage more “on-demand”.  

 

 

 

 

Was thinking the same thing.  Part of the balance on brutes, at least theoretically,  was the drawback of it being somewhat harder to quickly pump up your damage in certain situations to near scrapper levels.  Was often one of the few reasons I heard people give as a plus to a  scrapper over a brute.   I more often heard from brutes that even then it "wasn't that hard if you just use your attacks."

 

Although, I do agree with "balancing" fury generation between the slow and fast animating attacks.

[Riverdusk]

14 hours ago, Haijinx said:

WP is basically 100% fixed now.  

Glad to see that one, will definitely have to roll a WP tank when these changes go live.

[Phoenix']

On 12/3/2019 at 9:54 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Brute Fury Generation

• Hitting AVs no longer gives bonus Fury, but Fury generation for attacking has been increased in a variety of ways.
• Brute Fury generation now takes into account the cast time of the attack for successful hits.
  • Any attack slower than brawl will now generate bonus Fury if it lands a hit.
• Brutes now get bonus fury generation in teams, the larger the team, the larger the bonus.
• Fury now takes 10 seconds without attacking to start its accelerated decay, instead of 5 seconds.

Correct me if Im wrong but if a Brute goes solo and is not able to hit his opponent (due to high defence for example) does that mean he won't be able to build up Fury at all ???

Edited December 7, 2019 by Phoenix'

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, Phoenix' said:

Correct me if Im wrong but if a Brute goes solo and is not able to hit his opponent (due to high defence for example) does that mean he won't be able to build up Fury at all ???

There have been no changes to the "attacked by " fury.

 

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

At least none listed

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Mr.Sinister said:

Because brutes need a buff...

They do in the sense that when teaming with a lot of Brutes or a Tanker they generate less Fury due to having less aggro.

 

 

[Haijinx]

43 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

This “issue” with brutes is THE one thing that gives them any sort of balance inside of paragon city.  The only thing scrappers have on brutes is damage on-demand, unaffected by teammates.  

 

Making it easier for a brute to build and maintain fury devalues scrappers by making their damage more “on-demand”.  

 

Scrappers do more damage than Brutes "on demand" or not.

 

They also take less +dmg buffs in teams to hit their cap, which is also slightly higher than brutes in actual numbers, especially since the Brute cap was reduced.

 

And Scrappers can ALSO survive nearly all high level content.  

[Brutal Justice]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

They do in the sense that when teaming with a lot of Brutes or a Tanker they generate less Fury due to having less aggro.

 

 

I’ll have to go back and reread the “Brutes are underperforming” thread then so I can be up to date. 

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

I’ll have to go back and reread the “Brutes are underperforming” thread then so I can be up to date. 

Just look at the last Tanker thread.  See you in a few weeks.

[Brutal Justice]

8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Scrappers do more damage than Brutes "on demand" or not.

 

They also take less +dmg buffs in teams to hit their cap, which is also slightly higher than brutes in actual numbers, especially since the Brute cap was reduced.

 

And Scrappers can ALSO survive nearly all high level content.  

I agree with all of this but it doesn’t actually address what I said.  

[Brutal Justice]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Just look at the last Tanker thread.  See you in a few weeks.

Both of those threads were addressing how the then proposed tank buffs would cause brutes to lose value to tanks.  Not how brutes are currently underperforming and need a buff. Which is why I said, “if a tank buff has to result in a brute buff, then things need to be left alone”.

[Brutal Justice]

Currently brutes and scrappers are very close in performance when solo.  Each taking advantage under specific build conditions. IE punchvoke making burn more functional for brutes and aao being more beneficial for scrappers.  

 

In a team setting the scrapper has better damage because it’s harder, not that hard, to generate and maintain fury.  The brute provides better aggro management. These MINOR differences provide some balance between the two in regards to teaming.  

 

I would say they are currently well balanced between the two.  Buffing brutes disrupts that balance.  

[Vanden]

With the nerf to Tanker self +damage, these changes are now a straight nerf to Super Strength. If we start with an attack that does base 100 damage, with 95% damage enhancement:

 

Old numbers:

Base damage: 80

Damage from enhancement: 76

Damage from Rage: 64

 

80 + 76 + 64 = 220

 

220 * 1.2 (from Bruising) = 264

 

New numbers:

Base damage: 95

Damage from enhancement: 90.25

Damage from Rage: 76

 

95 + 90.25 + 76 = 261.25

 

Super Strength was already getting virtually nothing out of the last round of changes besides a virtually meaningless 1 foot increase to Foot Stomp's radius and increased target limit that won't mean much outside of farms, now it's actually worse than it is on Live. These changes can't go Live as-is with a vague promise of a rework to the set in the future.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

With the nerf to Tanker self +damage, these changes are now a straight nerf to Super Strength. If we start with an attack that does base 100 damage, with 95% damage enhancement:

 

Old numbers:

Base damage: 80

Damage from enhancement: 76

Damage from Rage: 64

 

80 + 76 + 64 = 220

 

220 * 1.2 (from Bruising) = 264

 

New numbers:

Base damage: 95

Damage from enhancement: 90.25

Damage from Rage: 76

 

95 + 90.25 + 76 = 261.25

 

Super Strength was already getting virtually nothing out of the last round of changes besides a virtually meaningless 1 foot increase to Foot Stomp's radius and increased target limit that won't mean much outside of farms, now it's actually worse than it is on Live. These changes can't go Live as-is with a vague promise of a rework to the set in the future.

Its double rage again

[Haijinx]

29 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

Both of those threads were addressing how the then proposed tank buffs would cause brutes to lose value to tanks.  Not how brutes are currently underperforming and need a buff. Which is why I said, “if a tank buff has to result in a brute buff, then things need to be left alone”.

I guess it depends on how you look at Fury and balance.

 

If you look at it as you balance based on fury being UP, you lower the damage cap and you make it easier to maintain fury.

 

Which seems to be what this is.  Which also makes the tanker numbers make sense 

 

Scrappers will still do more damage than Brutes.  (Outside of some farming stuff)

 

=======

*UP = 70%+ ish or so 

[aethereal]

But now SS tanks don't need to have Jab in their attack rotation, since it no longer provides bruising, and Jab is terrible, right?  Surely that more-than-covers an extremely minor decrease in overall damage, when you look at sustained damage for an attack rotation.