The Holy Trinity isn't. Advice for veterans of other MMOs

[hejtmane]

8 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Indeed, if my scrapper (Claw/SR/Body) isn't controlling the aggro it isn't because she was dead or dying.  It was probably because someone with Taunt or a Taunt aura was on the team OR someone else was doing silly amounts of (likely AoE)  damage such as a well played and incarnated Blaster.  Sure as hell wasn't cause she couldn't handle the damage.

I only run, Shield, Rad, Inv, WP,EA or BIO  for a reason they all have a taunt aura

[Doomguide2005]

10 minutes ago, hejtmane said:

I only run, Shield, Rad, Inv, WP,EA or BIO  for a reason they all have a taunt aura

     Aye the variety is good (both taunt Auras and lack thereof in Scrappers).  I'm not particularly concerned about being an off tank or keeping runners from ... running.  Except maybe idiot AVs like Rommy.  I've got both Focus and Shockwave which means they usually end up eating dirt 'over there' vs at my feet anyway or since my Shockwave doesn't have a kb to kd IO sometimes it just sends their backsides flying into the next spawn as I follow them.  If it's a single tough target well I'm a Scrapper I will have their attention though I'd hesitate to call that 'tanking' per se 😜

[SomeGuy]

This happened on Excelsior.

 

I wasn't allowed on a team because they needed a healer. First, what? This person also marks the adds each pull? Then today I had a stone tanker freaking out in a TF that no one was healing him.

 

The team needs more damage. Not heals.

[JJDrakken]

On 9/2/2021 at 9:42 PM, SomeGuy said:

This happened on Excelsior.

 

I wasn't allowed on a team because they needed a healer. First, what? This person also marks the adds each pull? Then today I had a stone tanker freaking out in a TF that no one was healing him.

 

The team needs more damage. Not heals.

 

Not true, any type of group build can work. In reality more DPS doesn't mean shart, when you DPS can't even effect regen of AVs or your eating dirt 24-7. At end of the day, everyone who is not a resistance build should be trying soft cap DEFENSE to S/L/R then anything else.

 

The 3 Rs are still Aces of the game: +Recovery, +Recharge, & -Regen.  Without those, doesn't matter what you do, you ain't doing much for higher content.

[SomeGuy]

5 hours ago, JJDrakken said:

 

Not true, any type of group build can work. In reality more DPS doesn't mean shart, when you DPS can't even effect regen of AVs or your eating dirt 24-7. At end of the day, everyone who is not a resistance build should be trying soft cap DEFENSE to S/L/R then anything else.

 

The 3 Rs are still Aces of the game: +Recovery, +Recharge, & -Regen.  Without those, doesn't matter what you do, you ain't doing much for higher content.

 

 

I lump -reg and -res as more DPS. And with enough DPS you can absolutely get past high HP encounters without -reg or -res. You just rarely see this due to the fact you still have people thinking regen is good and KM is bad (this is a great example of why this game is great...you can get stuff done with weird choices). But I've seen more than enough TFs and trials get stopped in their tracks because there wasn't enough DPS. This isn't WoW. The few fights in this game that aren't tank'n'spanks are implemented pretty poorly. And whenever someone does come from a game where kiting a boss, or something similar is the norm, and they do it here? It really only leads to heartache.

 

Clearly DPS doesn't mean shart if they can't effect the regen of a thing. Hence why...MOAR DPS.

 

-REG and -RES are why solo cold domination characters can achieve interesting things solo. -RES is a HUGE reason why x/bio scrappers are so sought after. -RES just makes the entire team hit harder. It's beautiful. easily my favorite debuff.

Edited September 19, 2021 by SomeGuy

[Golden Azrael]

On 5/13/2019 at 5:30 AM, Zolgar said:

Many players are returning after long stretches of playing other MMOs where the “Holy Trinity” is king.

 

In case you’re not familiar with the term “Holy Trinity” in regards to an MMO:

Damage Per Second (DPS), Heals, Tank.

DPS kills things, Tank holds the agro, Heals keeps them both alive. There is very little room for anything else in most MMOs, and in most MMOs there are only a few options that are considered “ideal” for the role at hand.

 

City of Heroes is different.

 

At the core, you could argue that the same concept of the Holy Trinity applies:

Agro management, support, and damage.

But let’s talk about those roles in CoH:

 

Damage, DPS.

This is the most obvious role. What archetype fills this role? All of them. The entire team fills this role. Everyone on the team should have time to attack, yes, even the defenders. Certain archetypes are primarily focused on damage, and including a few of them in your team is always good, but by no means mandatory.

 

Agro management.

In other MMOs this is the role of the tank, and while a tank can certainly manage agro in CoH, they’re not the only ones who can.

 

Tanks, Brutes, and Scrappers can all manage agro by pissing things off and keeping their attention (though Scrappers are not as good at it as the other two)

 

Controllers and Dominators primarily manage agro with control powers. Sleeps, holds, stuns, knockbacks, etc. Yes, I said knockbacks. Yes, it can be frustrating to be a tank in the middle of a swarm and suddenly they all go flying away, but while a foe is standing and running back to the fight, they’re not attacking. All other archetypes have the capacity to manage agro this way as well, in a lesser capacity, depending on their powersets.

 

Masterminds manage agro by using their pets they can summon as either disposable minions (if it’s shooting a minion it’s not shooting a team mate), or they can tank by using Bodyguard mode. What’s bodyguard mode? If you have your pets set to “defensive” and “follow” while they are close to you, your pets basically act as armor absorbing part of the damage you would take, makes a well built MM incredibly tanky.

 

Lastly, agro can also be managed by pure raw damage output. They can’t attack you if they’re dead. This is a viable strategy in CoH.

 

Support.

Ah support. The most diverse category in the game, and ultimately the reason I am writing this. Veterans of other MMOs tend to see this category and instantly go to “heals”. Well, healing is a thing in CoH, but there is no “healer”. “But Zolgar, what about Empathy and Pain?” Those are buff sets with a strong healing element, and when you’re playing a brute and suddenly you have Enforced Morale, World of Pain, and Painbringer on you? You’ll understand why Pain is so much more than healz.

 

I’m going to be honest. “Healing” is not a very strong form of support in City of Heroes. Yes, I said it. Empathy and Pain are amazing sets, because they support their healing with buffs and debuffs, and if you skip those powers? You’re severely underpowering yourself and missing the best powers in the sets.

 

So, if healing is not the ideal support, what is? Aside from healing, there are three types of support in CoH:

 

Buffs make your team better. Whether making them get hit less, take less damage from the hits they take, hit harder, recharge their powers faster, recover endurance faster, increase their hitpoints, etc.

 

Debuffs make the enemies weaker, most of these tend to focus on making them do less damage, hit less often, take more damage, or be easier to hit.

 

Control, there are a number of support sets with control elements. Slows (mechanically they fall under a debuff, but as far as support they are more about battlefield control), knockback/down, fear, stun, etc. Storm is a major example of this, it has some buff/debuff in it but it’s primary about controlling the battlefield, which is why many players have a hard time understanding it as a support set.

 

One thing you’ll note is that most sets have a mix of at least two kinds of support, some even have all four. There is no single support set that is the “best” or “worst”, all have their strengths and weaknesses, and are a major boone to a team when played well (some are easier to play than others though).

 

It’s worth noting that many attack sets, and some armor sets feature a debuff as a secondary effect to their powers. Dark powers reduce accuracy, Radiation powers reduce defense, etc. This is rarely enough to qualify as ‘support’ on its own, but for defenders and corruptors it’s a good reason to make sure you attack too… and for others, you can actually build another archetype to capitalize on these secondary effects.

 

Other archetypes can also move in the direction of support with power pools. Leadership, Medicine, Sorcery, Stealth? All have powers that aid your party.

 

All of that said though… there is still one thing about City of Heroes I haven’t covered in terms of teaming:

 

Outside of certain end-game content, you don’t even need to have a slightly optimized team, as long as most everyone on the team is competent at what they do. Back on live, mono-archetype TFs were commonplace. Why? Because it was fun. Who needs dedicated damage dealers when you have a squad of defenders buffing each other to the gills? Who needs support when you have 8 blasters melting everything that crosses their path? Who needs anything else when you have the mayhem of 8 masterminds? (Defeated not by foes, but by caves.)

 

Know your character and what they’re capable of, understand what the rest of the team is capable of, and you should have a successful team if you work together. We’re superheroes (or villains), while individually we’re powerful, our true power shows when we work together.

 

 

'City of Heroes is Different.'

 

You said it.

 

Azrael.

[Myrmidon]

Try not to overthink it. This is superheroes and many of us can cover vulnerabilities. 

[Golden Azrael]

Nothing wrong with a bit of vulnerability.  It makes heroes and their journey more interesting.

 

Azrael.

[StarseedWarrior]

On 7/8/2022 at 6:10 AM, Myrmidon said:

Try not to overthink it. This is superheroes and many of us can cover vulnerabilities. 

Right its allot less simple thent his but at first it wont matter much but you will need to learn how different teams can synergize and stack debuffs and buffs for example.

[Cognadistor74]

Thank you everyone for clearing things up, for sharing why CoH is different.

 

I just came to CoH for the first time ever, for that matter this is the first superhero mmo or game I have ever played ... ever ... since I began playing computer games in the 80's. I knew nothing and still know very very little.... but I did learn an important aspect of CoH and perhaps all superhero games perhaps...

 

Healers aren't needed. I came here to Heal as a primary Role/Job. CoH isn't designed to need them from what everyone here has shared and what I've seen of the game so far. I have been playing mmos since 2001, I'm done with dps and tank roles, done with cc, I came here to heal, playing a Healer is what I wanted to do here, not going to happen apparently.

 

Thanks for being honest so I didn't waste my time. Cya. Have fun.

 

 

[JJDrakken]

18 hours ago, Cognadistor74 said:

Thank you everyone for clearing things up, for sharing why CoH is different.

 

I just came to CoH for the first time ever, for that matter this is the first superhero mmo or game I have ever played ... ever ... since I began playing computer games in the 80's. I knew nothing and still know very very little.... but I did learn an important aspect of CoH and perhaps all superhero games perhaps...

 

Healers aren't needed. I came here to Heal as a primary Role/Job. CoH isn't designed to need them from what everyone here has shared and what I've seen of the game so far. I have been playing mmos since 2001, I'm done with dps and tank roles, done with cc, I came here to heal, playing a Healer is what I wanted to do here, not going to happen apparently.

 

Thanks for being honest so I didn't waste my time. Cya. Have fun.

 

 

 

You can still heal just fine.  There is nothing wrong with it.

 

What is stated here is that do to how Buffs, Debuffs, Defense soft capping, etc...  It's not required.  Trust me, healers are still wanted.  Especially with a teams that don't have the money, time, or patience to deck out a build of a hero.  Those that stick strictly to SOs or IOs.  There still harder content in the game that a healer can and will be wanted.

 

Different star ranks of Taskforces & Strikeforces for example.  Don't let this post detour you from what you want to play.  I would suggest getting to know your community on the server you play and to hang out with folks more.

 

Not every set is just pure heals. They all offer buffs and/or debuffs with those heals.  So play & have fun. 🙂

Edited April 12 by JJDrakken

[Lyrium]

You can heal just fine. You can't just heal. You need to do something else. Buff, debuff, blast away... what are you going to do when all the team is topped up?

[Cognadistor74]

On 4/15/2024 at 6:20 AM, Lyrium said:

You can heal just fine. You can't just heal. You need to do something else. Buff, debuff, blast away... what are you going to do when all the team is topped up?

 

Buff, DeBuff, DPS, of course, as I would in any other MMO.... I prefer MMOs that are designed with a more active "Healer" role... I enjoy "filling the green bars" and pulling other's arse out of the fire in a tough fight, but here combat is different and much more complex than in other MMOs. I am learning by playing the game that I can focus on filling the role as a "healer" AND focus on the Buff/Debuff/Support role as well, filling what would be in other MMOs two roles in one. This makes this MMO different than others, and here Buff/debuff/support is actually designed quite well, a refreshing change from other MMOs did not put as much design work into the "Support" aspect of the roles. I understand now what everyone above was trying to explain.

 

So I am relearning just what "Support" means and how it's different here, and for me I had to play to get the jest of it. Playing Support is enjoyable to me and fits my temperament. I appreciate that this MMO was saved and is still going. Thanks for Homecoming project.

 

My concerns are answered, thanks for the dialog.

[Doomguide2005]

On 4/16/2024 at 8:18 AM, Cognadistor74 said:

 

Buff, DeBuff, DPS, of course, as I would in any other MMO.... I prefer MMOs that are designed with a more active "Healer" role... I enjoy "filling the green bars" and pulling other's arse out of the fire in a tough fight, but here combat is different and much more complex than in other MMOs. I am learning by playing the game that I can focus on filling the role as a "healer" AND focus on the Buff/Debuff/Support role as well, filling what would be in other MMOs two roles in one. This makes this MMO different than others, and here Buff/debuff/support is actually designed quite well, a refreshing change from other MMOs did not put as much design work into the "Support" aspect of the roles. I understand now what everyone above was trying to explain.

 

So I am relearning just what "Support" means and how it's different here, and for me I had to play to get the jest of it. Playing Support is enjoyable to me and fits my temperament. I appreciate that this MMO was saved and is still going. Thanks for Homecoming project.

 

My concerns are answered, thanks for the dialog.

I have a bunch of Empaths, currently 4 of my 11 characters at level 50 are Empaths with several more on their way up).  All of them very capable of healing especially their "team builds".  You want to mostly pass out the heals and fill green bars exemplar or cap you level (turn off your xp gain) and help lower-level teams.  You'll generally find a lot more to do at those levels.  Or play on smaller teams tackling larger groups of foes.  

PS:  Mine also tend to blow up stuff between passing the buffs and heals.     

[Lyrium]

On 4/16/2024 at 2:18 PM, Cognadistor74 said:

 

Buff, DeBuff, DPS, of course, as I would in any other MMO.... I prefer MMOs that are designed with a more active "Healer" role... I enjoy "filling the green bars" and pulling other's arse out of the fire in a tough fight, but here combat is different and much more complex than in other MMOs. I am learning by playing the game that I can focus on filling the role as a "healer" AND focus on the Buff/Debuff/Support role as well, filling what would be in other MMOs two roles in one. This makes this MMO different than others, and here Buff/debuff/support is actually designed quite well, a refreshing change from other MMOs did not put as much design work into the "Support" aspect of the roles. I understand now what everyone above was trying to explain.

 

So I am relearning just what "Support" means and how it's different here, and for me I had to play to get the jest of it. Playing Support is enjoyable to me and fits my temperament. I appreciate that this MMO was saved and is still going. Thanks for Homecoming project.

 

My concerns are answered, thanks for the dialog.

Glad you are giving a second opportunity to the Support role here! As a long time defender lover, you have my full... Support 😉 

[Hyperstrike]

The basic concept of Def/Res/Regen(Heal)/Damage Output still exists.

It's now more that there's fewer incentives to focus on one aspect to the exclusion of all others.

It's possible to bring all of the above in a single character, successfully.

As such you now have LOTS of options to kick ass and decide whether you need to know their names...

[Maelwys]

On 4/16/2024 at 1:18 PM, Cognadistor74 said:

So I am relearning just what "Support" means and how it's different here, and for me I had to play to get the jest of it. Playing Support is enjoyable to me and fits my temperament. I appreciate that this MMO was saved and is still going. Thanks for Homecoming project.

 

My concerns are answered, thanks for the dialog.

 

Like many others here, over the years I've played in a great many CoX teams that have had their share of hairy moments.

Maybe the Tank simply got in over their head or encountered the Paper to their Rock, maybe the Controller is using AoE sleeps rather than hard Mez, maybe the Scrapper took the wrong fork in the cave map and has aggroed three extra groups chasing that fleeing Boss, maybe the Blaster decided to Leeroy Jenkins half the map.

 

Often these days you'll see veterans running level 50 IOed builds which can do very crazy things and still be functionally immortal without any outside assistance. But whilst levelling up they're still reasonably vulnerable... and new players exist too who might be a bit less familiar with the game mechanics... and every now and then you get a team full of suicidal SO'ed Fire Blasters who've decided to try a no-deaths TF run.

 

The best support/healer builds I've seen in this game have been those which always bring some benefit to a team regardless of it's composition and survivability. Increase a steamrollng team's Damage output via Attacks, Resistance Debuffs, or Damage/Recharge/Recovery buffs. Increase a struggling team's survivability via Defence/Resistance/Absorb/MaxHP buffs, Damage/Recharge/ToHit debuffs, Crowd Control, Mez Protection, etc. And yes, the occasional Heal and Regeneration buff. Or somewhere in between.

 

The closest thing I've personally built to a "Pure Healer" in CoH was an Illusion/Empathy Controller. They could instantly heal a Tanker to 100% via Absorb Pain and keep a Blaster trucking through an old Nuke crash via Adrenaline Boost, whilst keeping the entire team buffed with Clear Mind and Fortitude (half of them Power Boosted) and high uptime on Regeneration and Recovery aura... but they could also deal a reasonable amount of damage, crowd control two mobs at a time, confuse an AV, etc plus Permanent Phantom Army.

 

Thankfully in this game there's no need to limit yourself to just being a One Trick Pony. 

[Flitze]

Yes, COH has changed. At the beginning there was a clear separation between tanks, healers and damage dealers. It was more or less impossible to do a TF without a tank and healer.

Nowadays the toons are more equal (sign of the times, eh ?). I guess this was done to make soloing possible for every archetype after the number of active players went down.

 

And btw. in first place tanking means to be able to taunt enemies, and 2nd to soak damage. Auras are often not sufficient to hold aggro. I.e. the main power of the tank is the taunt.

[ZemX]

On 7/7/2024 at 8:49 AM, Flitze said:

At the beginning there was a clear separation between tanks, healers and damage dealers. It was more or less impossible to do a TF without a tank and healer.

 

This is bait.

[Maelwys]

 
>  It was more or less impossible to do a TF without a tank and healer.

> Auras are often not sufficient to hold aggro. i.e. the main power of the tank is the taunt.
  

On 7/11/2024 at 3:21 PM, ZemX said:

This is bait.

[Flitze]

On 7/11/2024 at 4:21 PM, ZemX said:

This is bait.

What do you mean ??? I just gave an insight to the history, so you can see how the game has changed. The clear separation of the roles in the past is my experience, not bait.
I remember when we wanted to do a TF after PVP was invented in the game and we were looking for a tank. We were looking for like 15..30 mins asking all the tanks that were online. Yes, directly asking players was common/necessary at this time... Found one and asked him if he can tank. Answer: yes.
Turns out he couldn't. He had a PVP build and therefore had no taunt like almost all tanks at this time. And toons had only one build back then. While I could kite Valkyrie with my corruptor, the other AVs were too strong without a tank => too many team wipes => TF failed.
The toons in this TF were neither especially strong, nor weak. Just a PUG team lacking a tank with taunt.
Nowadays I have a brute which can solo many AVs, thanks to the incarnate stuff and (expensive) sets. This was impossible back then.

Edited July 19 by Flitze

[ZemX]

51 minutes ago, Flitze said:

What do you mean ??? I just gave an insight to the history, so you can see how the game has changed.

 

This is just a topic that sometimes attracts trolls is all.   To be fair, some people really did believe back in the day that you had to have tanks and healers on teams.  You'd see them broadcasting all the time "LF emp!" or "LF tank!"  Meanwhile teams of buffers, debuffers, and controllers were wrecking everything.

 

The only thing IOs changed was to make people less dependent on teammates.   In other words, they don't enable things you couldn't do before.  They enable us to do it with less.  So yeah, your Brute can solo an AV. But your Brute could tank an AV back in the day with a little help from teammates too.  And it didn't have to be a healer specifically.  Buff/debuff Defenders/Corrupters were often more powerful and better at mitigating damage because again, they did what you do today with IOs.  They boosted DEF/RES/Recharge/DMG etc.  And everybody could contribute damage, so there was no need for specialists in that role either.

 

But really I'm just restating the OP at this point.  It's a good read and says it better than I am here probably.