Global Knockback->Knockdown IO for Travel Powers/Rest

[QuiJon]

On 12/13/2019 at 11:42 AM, Call Me Awesome said:

A global KB-KD proc would be a beautiful thing, as a suggestion simply change the Overwhelming Force IO to a Global instead of creating an "orphan" IO or another new set.  That solves the KB problem and allows those who want to selectively keep KB to use the Sudden Acceleration IO instead.  Admittedly I don't know of any specifics but since we already have other global effect IO's in the game (LOTG 7.5% recharge for example) it should be doable without much trouble.

Honestly I like the idea of having a global in a power that has no relation to knockback and that we commonly don't slot with anything better. So long as the "global" is part of a set and requires to be slotting into a useful power it requires it to take the place of a possible 6th slot of another set choice. And when you think how many of those 6 slots are like huge defense or resistance bonuses etc, it just seems like it is again punishing people that want to get rid of the knockback. And frankly in most cases the knockback is not that big of an issue to the player with the power that does knockback. I frankly don't care if my energy blaster knocks enemies back when I set off explosive blast or energy torrent ect. So if it is a choice between bonuses I want and dropping my knockback cause some tanker is gonna be mad, well to bad for that tanker. However if I can keep the build I want with the bonuses I want, and drop a universal knockback to knockdown into "sprint" or "rest" hey that's no skin off my nose. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

exactly Quijon all we  want is a choice. 

[MunkiLord]

On 12/13/2019 at 1:42 PM, Call Me Awesome said:

A global KB-KD proc would be a beautiful thing, as a suggestion simply change the Overwhelming Force IO to a Global instead of creating an "orphan" IO or another new set.  That solves the KB problem and allows those who want to selectively keep KB to use the Sudden Acceleration IO instead.  Admittedly I don't know of any specifics but since we already have other global effect IO's in the game (LOTG 7.5% recharge for example) it should be doable without much trouble.

Changing an IO that currently works in one power to be global shouldn't be a consideration, not everybody with Overwhelming Force wants that to be global. 

 

I think a new IO set, preferably a purple set, would be the ideal solution. Give it some good bonus to go along with the global effect, make it very rare, and call it a day. 

 

I believe the second best solution would be to make it an option at Null the Gull. But if that were the case, then I think it should lock the powers at a mag 0 KB, not KB to KD.

 

But changing Overwhelming force to all of a sudden be a global is a terrible idea in my opinion.

[Troo]

On 12/13/2019 at 11:31 AM, TorrentYed said:

For folks that want to convert the knockback in their powers to knockdown without compromising their builds, would it be possible to create an IO that could be slotted into one of the different sprint powers or Rest itself?

I'd be for a global if it was 'in addition to' rather than 'instead of'. It definitely should go in a knockback power not something else (that's lame/lazy).

 

Alternately, maybe a power could be added as appropriate similar to Duel Pistols > Swap Ammo which has the ability to select a different added effect. Knockback could do + damage while knockdown could do -speed.

 

Just my opinion.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i dunno about setting KB to zero that would remove ALL mitigation from some powers. and all powers have some secondary effect besides damage

[KelvinKole]

This is mostly about energy blast/assault, no? Some other sets have powers that do knockback, but I think the likelihood that you a) take the power and b) care enough that it do knockdown instead of knockback are pretty low. In those cases, slotting a single IO is just going to be part of your build strategy. 

 

For a set like Energy blast, where it's not feasible to dedicate one slot in every power to a conversion IO, id rather see a mechanic like Swap Ammo. Give the player a choice to toggle on KB, KD, or a chance to disorient or do more damage or something. 

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i dunno about setting KB to zero that would remove ALL mitigation from some powers. and all powers have some secondary effect besides damage

I think for an otherwise 100% free option that's a fair price. That's also why I think a purple KB to KD set would be the best option, especially if the set bonuses were top notch. Perhaps this set could have an alternative proc that was mutually exclusive to the KB to KD in case someone wanted the six slot bonus but wanted to keep their KB.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

removing all mitigation instead of reducing it is a fair price? i could see changing the KB to disorient or some other secondary effect but removing it entirely seems a bit heavy handed

[Galaxy Brain]

Also, no to a purple set. That is 50 only.

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

removing all mitigation instead of reducing it is a fair price? i could see changing the KB to disorient or some other secondary effect but removing it entirely seems a bit heavy handed

It's fair for an otherwise free change that would drastically alter an entire powerset set and potentially free up several slots.

 

Edit: the disorient idea isn't bad and makes sense

24 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Also, no to a purple set. That is 50 only.

That's what the Null the Gull option is for. Or the current IOs.

 

My proposal would keep the existing options, add Null, and a purple set. More choices is what people want and my suggestion does that.

Edited December 18, 2019 by MunkiLord

[ninja surprise]

On 12/15/2019 at 6:42 AM, FDR's Think Tank said:

If the game had tons of environmental hazards that knocking enemies into would deal extra damage, knockback wouldn't be so awful... but that's the sort of think that you had to have in the game in the first place. Technically, there are those Electro Zappers in DFB, for instance. It's hilarious to kill mobs with those, but DFB is too easy to require it.

But on the other hand the game has hazards you can knock enemies into that prevent you from hitting them anymore. Happens all the time on DFBs with low-level stormies rocking Gale non-stop in the Lost caves, knocking critters into the walls so they can't be attacked anymore.

Then the whole team has to sit around while the one or two teammates with pbaoe attacks slowly grind down the baddie.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

im not sure baddies gettin stuck in a wall applies to this situation

[Troo]

5 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

For a set like Energy blast, where it's not feasible to dedicate one slot in every power to a conversion IO, id rather see a mechanic like Swap Ammo. Give the player a choice to toggle on KB, KD, or a chance to disorient or do more damage or something. 

I do like this.

 

Knockback is present in many ATs and power sets. Giving 'Repulsion Field' and 'Sonic Repulsion' some options might help them be more team friendly. Similarly for 'Gail', 'Hurricane', 'Tornado', 'Explosive Arrow', etc. The powers could still knock the crap out of them in some fashion.

[Troo]

maybe it would be easier to keep critters from going through walls... maybe not.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

how about the rarely seen blind attack used by illusionists? i think if i was hit with a bright energy beam id be blinded for a 1 or 2 seconds.

[Crysta Clear]

Enemies who are knocked back will ragdoll around on the floor, unable to act, for two to even five times longer than enemies who were merely knocked down, depending on the circumstances of where they're flung.

[Galaxy Brain]

18 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

depending on the circumstances of where they're flung

This is unreliable, if it happened every time it'd be groovy

[Saiyajinzoningen]

exactly, since other secondaries dont have unreliable secondary effects can KB powers get a little more freedom in exchange? *cough* like global KD instead *cough*

[Galaxy Brain]

Right, which is why I've been wanting to actually buff knockback so that it is worth the extra learning curve and inconsistency. If KB always had a 5 sec get up time, or did more damage, or stunned too, something besides what KD already does but with range it'd help with these problems.

[Steampunkette]

The second this gets implemented, people will demand I slot it on any character I use knockback on.

 

As it -stands- there's people who complain 'til they're as blue as these forums when people don't have the KD IOs slotted into all their KB Powers.

 

And 6 months later, people will say "Why not just get rid of Knockback altogether? No one uses it, anyway." 

 

I'm not against "Options", here. Y'all have an option. It's an option that comes with a cost, but it's a option. And that option can -really- pay off for powers like Bonfire...

 

But I'm against further maligning of knockback in the game. Every step we take closer to "No Knockback" is a step we'll never be able to take back. Knockback is a part of the genre, of what makes Superheroes -feel- powerful.

 

Take it away? And City of Heroes loses one of the elements that separates it from all other games.

[Galaxy Brain]

44 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Knockback is a part of the genre, of what makes Superheroes -feel- powerful.

It doesn't feel powerful here is the root of the problem! Knockback into a wall / off a ledge / 50 ft through the air should feel impactful in some way. Currently, it doesn't outside of RNG glitching into the environment which is not reliable and can actually be detrimental if they fly out of bounds and can't be hit. If when you flung everyone across the room and all the minions get KO'd, and the LTs + are either stunned or at least take high damage / take much longer to get back up then people would at least appreciate the cool factor, or even try and leverage the direction they fling people. 

 

The issue IMO is that KB does not offer substantial benefits over other Knock-Powers, which opens up the comparison. Knockdown / Knockup keeps enemies generally in the same spot which meshes well with the normal combat of the game and allows the various AoEs that like enemies bunched up to do their thing. Knockback pushes enemies out of those zones and is something that other players then have to react to, which can be frustrating without coordination. So of course, conversion to knockdown keeps most of the benefit of KB without the frustrations, a win-win.

 

If the choice was between "Ok, soft control that keeps people in place VS hard control that makes them go boom and we win", then this would probably be a different conversation.

 

Another point though is that I don't think it is productive to just say "All knockback is bad". Specifically, it is AOE KB that is disruptive. A ST KB attack can be leveraged easily by a player to wreck their target of choice or even save a teammate's butt. In general, its sort of accepted that if you are ST KB'ing a guy they they're your target to handle. When its an AoE though, if not aimed correctly you can scatter a group to the 4 winds which can disrupt the abilities of several other team mates at once whether it be a melee AT needing to reposition, or another AT that has to choose which new sub-group to AoE or where to place a targeted effect. On top of all that, IIRC most AoE KB is also RNG on whether it knocks or not. If AoE knocks were mini-nukes like they are often shown in media (those powers typically clear the room of mooks and end the fight) then they would be a welcome / cool sight to see all the defeated enemies thrown about rather than an annoyance.

 

 

I think this all really comes down to evaluating the AoE KB powers as they are not all the same, nor the sets that have them. Fire Control only has 1 for example, and it becomes godlike with KD. Energy Blast? Way different and its all RNG outside 1 power. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Saiyajinzoningen]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

The second this gets implemented, people will demand I slot it on any character I use knockback on.

 

As it -stands- there's people who complain 'til they're as blue as these forums when people don't have the KD IOs slotted into all their KB Powers.

 

And 6 months later, people will say "Why not just get rid of Knockback altogether? No one uses it, anyway." 

 

I'm not against "Options", here. Y'all have an option. It's an option that comes with a cost, but it's a option. And that option can -really- pay off for powers like Bonfire...

 

But I'm against further maligning of knockback in the game. Every step we take closer to "No Knockback" is a step we'll never be able to take back. Knockback is a part of the genre, of what makes Superheroes -feel- powerful.

 

Take it away? And City of Heroes loses one of the elements that separates it from all other games.

u do realize there are multiple, multiple knockback IO sets that enhance and reinforce knockback (for those that want it) and they come at no additional cost. one of them is counterproductive as it enhances knockback with every piece only to take it all away. People complain about the weird behavior bosses perform when you throw rad debuff on em but aside  from some grumbling the whole team just engages in game of "tag". Nobody is saying do away with Knockdown we just want it managed and controlled without a cost just like every other secondary effect

[Crysta Clear]

Anything that makes people set aside 'the meta' and run around chasing scattered mob groups seems infinitely more fun than tanking&spanking enemies in a cluster like in every other MMO.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

8 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

Anything that makes people set aside 'the meta' and run around chasing scattered mob groups seems infinitely more fun than tanking&spanking enemies in a cluster like in every other MMO.

My earliest and fondest memory of coh is chasing a mob while shooting them (before travel power suppression) it was my omfg "i love this game moment". and yes the steamroll does get tedious at times but what about when you are trying to beat a TF within a certain time frame? remember chasing all those little clockwork in a synapse TF? anyway we arent forcing anyone to remove the KB if they like it. we only want options. And at the end of the day isnt that one of the things that makes coh so wonderful? all the options.

[Galaxy Brain]

10 hours ago, Crysta Clear said:

Anything that makes people set aside 'the meta' and run around chasing scattered mob groups seems infinitely more fun than tanking&spanking enemies in a cluster like in every other MMO.

So, its ok to scatter enemies everywhere to mess with other people's abilities?