Global Knockback->Knockdown IO for Travel Powers/Rest

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i get that i was just being facetious because the biggest complaint against  KB-KD is people creating blacklists against those that do not play with KB effectively (supposedly). He has reversed the dynamic by creating a blacklist against those that would blacklist others for not playing.....the way he/they wants....them/him....to play?

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i get that i was just being facetious because the biggest complaint against  KB-KD is people creating blacklists against those that do not play with KB effectively (supposedly). He has reversed the dynamic by creating a blacklist against those that would blacklist others for not playing.....the way he/they wants....them/him....to play?

I notice your Controller is the only one in your sig you don't use the start of the AT name for,  I guarantee if you use Cont you will crack up every single Dutch speaker who sees your sig. (though it's actually spelt with a K )

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i get that i was just being facetious because the biggest complaint against  KB-KD is people creating blacklists against those that do not play with KB effectively (supposedly). He has reversed the dynamic by creating a blacklist against those that would blacklist others for not playing.....the way he/they wants....them/him....to play?

Nope see what your doing is basically the your a bigot if you hate racist fallacy. In the above issue, one faction would basically be broad brushing everyone who uses KB as a faction worthy of denigration and isolation. The other a player who is on a case by case basis choosing as they have every right to, to identify a specific individual they are going to have inevitable conflict with due to widely differing POVs and removing them from their social circle. Choosing to remove oneself from a TF is a far cry from the other sides attitude which is I will kick you from a team, even a TF already well underway if you dont submit to my will. Something I saw not rarely enough back in the days before I always lead TFs on live. People intentionally stringing along people on TFs just to boot them before the last door as a way to punish them for not playing as they demanded.

[Galaxy Brain]

Yeah, that sort of pettiness is stupid and should be shunned. It should really be more communication than instantly jumping to "Imma boot you / Imma leave the team". Like, if it is frustrating you that another player keeps knocking enemies around in a manner that feels disorganized, why not throw out "Hey, lets blast those guys into the wall!" or something to that effect to let the KB users leverage their powers without attacking them for doing so / booting them? If the person still doesn't want to cooperate or actively begins to act against the team then I don't see it as any different than other players who do similar things like pulling other groups on purpose just to cause chaos, actively door sitting, or otherwise being uncooperative to the team.

 

As an energy blast player, I try to leverage knocking enemies about into the map since it is often the best course of action to line up further attacks, and generally splatting into something means they smear down the wall / etc or can get stuck which effectively becomes a hold vs them where they cant fight back. To me, scattering enemies about randomly is dangerous since then I have to divert attention and cannot leverage further AoE attacks as effectively. VS a single target I don't care as that guy is getting wrecked by me specifically, and I find that is usually the case even in the craziest of teams where either people die too fast to even notice one guy being flung into the sunset, or if one guy is flung they see they are also getting blasted to heck so they move on. The only time that sucks is if the environment is wide open and my Explosive Blast flings everyone everywhere which can cause issues solo (my bad there since I had full control, and from the right angle they don't go "everywhere"), and depending on the map cause more chaos than intended in a team. As a Blaster, I had never had anyone say anything about KB to me since I will leverage it as hard control when possible, or the things I attack just die anyways so its a win-win. That said, it took a bit to learn the best way to use knockback attacks and how to angle yourself / etc for the best effects that many players may not have had the time to play with yet. That is where the communication piece comes in that it seems is lacking as based on the sentiments here is either my way or the highway on both sides...

 

Anywho, back on the original topic I feel that this should really be twofold.

 

1) Yes, at this point there are probably enough power combos that warrant there being a universal KB -> KD IO or some other option as an option.

 

2) On the flip-side, KB is fun and I still want to heavily campaign in favor of buffing it it be truly a cool effect. Touching on what I said about my blaster, KB can be very powerful and if it came with Stuns / More Damage / Etc then I feel that people who know how to use it already just benefit even more, and those who are learning how to use it best have a ton more leeway in terms of providing team utility where they are still defeating foes quickly or providing layers of safety to offset the cases where a frustrating interaction may occur. 

 

2.5) Given the last two points, I feel any KD conversion / option should be nerfed in that it does not get the KB benefits, whatever they may be. Sure, some powers like Bonfire may not benefit from KB still given how it works. But then look at say, Force Bolt where slotting for KB suddenly makes it really really good, and everything in between where it becomes a tactical choice of which you want which gives value to the individual IOs and the "Global" option.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

58 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Yeah, that sort of pettiness is stupid and should be shunned. It should really be more communication than instantly jumping to "Imma boot you / Imma leave the team". Like, if it is frustrating you that another player keeps knocking enemies around in a manner that feels disorganized, why not throw out "Hey, lets blast those guys into the wall!" or something to that effect to let the KB users leverage their powers without attacking them for doing so / booting them? If the person still doesn't want to cooperate or actively begins to act against the team then I don't see it as any different than other players who do similar things like pulling other groups on purpose just to cause chaos, actively door sitting, or otherwise being uncooperative to the team.

 

As an energy blast player, I try to leverage knocking enemies about into the map since it is often the best course of action to line up further attacks, and generally splatting into something means they smear down the wall / etc or can get stuck which effectively becomes a hold vs them where they cant fight back. To me, scattering enemies about randomly is dangerous since then I have to divert attention and cannot leverage further AoE attacks as effectively. VS a single target I don't care as that guy is getting wrecked by me specifically, and I find that is usually the case even in the craziest of teams where either people die too fast to even notice one guy being flung into the sunset, or if one guy is flung they see they are also getting blasted to heck so they move on. The only time that sucks is if the environment is wide open and my Explosive Blast flings everyone everywhere which can cause issues solo (my bad there since I had full control, and from the right angle they don't go "everywhere"), and depending on the map cause more chaos than intended in a team. As a Blaster, I had never had anyone say anything about KB to me since I will leverage it as hard control when possible, or the things I attack just die anyways so its a win-win. That said, it took a bit to learn the best way to use knockback attacks and how to angle yourself / etc for the best effects that many players may not have had the time to play with yet. That is where the communication piece comes in that it seems is lacking as based on the sentiments here is either my way or the highway on both sides...

 

Anywho, back on the original topic I feel that this should really be twofold.

 

1) Yes, at this point there are probably enough power combos that warrant there being a universal KB -> KD IO or some other option as an option.

 

2) On the flip-side, KB is fun and I still want to heavily campaign in favor of buffing it it be truly a cool effect. Touching on what I said about my blaster, KB can be very powerful and if it came with Stuns / More Damage / Etc then I feel that people who know how to use it already just benefit even more, and those who are learning how to use it best have a ton more leeway in terms of providing team utility where they are still defeating foes quickly or providing layers of safety to offset the cases where a frustrating interaction may occur. 

 

2.5) Given the last two points, I feel any KD conversion / option should be nerfed in that it does not get the KB benefits, whatever they may be. Sure, some powers like Bonfire may not benefit from KB still given how it works. But then look at say, Force Bolt where slotting for KB suddenly makes it really really good, and everything in between where it becomes a tactical choice of which you want which gives value to the individual IOs and the "Global" option.

for point #2

 

I really like what they did with Ki push (MA blaster) its got this floaty slow motion effect that looks great and has good synergy with other powers. wouldn't mind if all the KB worked this way 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Saiyajinzoningen

[Galaxy Brain]

Ki Push is really fun, but its not KB... well at least till the end. It's a repel and a hold iirc before it ends up knocking the enemy at the end of it.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

whatever it is, its an improvement over the current KB system

[MunkiLord]

8 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i get that i was just being facetious because the biggest complaint against  KB-KD is people creating blacklists against those that do not play with KB effectively (supposedly). He has reversed the dynamic by creating a blacklist against those that would blacklist others for not playing.....the way he/they wants....them/him....to play?

No, I one star the control freaks that bitch and moan anytime someone uses KB. Don't make a big deal about it, don't say anything to them, just one star and move on. My level of effort is a few button presses over the course of months. I don't even put in enough effort to remember their names. 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Let me ask all those campaigning for global KD a simple question what if it became a universal change and suddenly hurricane using bad guys like tsoo sorcers could put you in a state of perpetually bouncing because you did not get pushed out of the area? What if they decided to add an entire faction taht was pure energy blasting and those ATs lacking good KB protection ended up bouncing half the fight? Because I suspect none of you would want to see that change made for the E side of pve.

 

And if I was running the game that would be the price the players would have to pay to have their want. suffering endless KD from then on in virtually every fight at a magnitude even tanks wouldnt be able to resist. Id give every mob air superiority in place of brawl. Every common minion a magnum pistol with a 100% KD effect. Every supa troll punch would lay anyone on their ass and so on. 

 

So tell me true would you anti KB fanatics that want KD everything be willing to live in that world to get your wish? Because my philosophy is always corrupt a wish when it comes to constant whinery.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Let me ask all those campaigning for global KD a simple question what if it became a universal change and suddenly hurricane using bad guys like tsoo sorcers could put you in a state of perpetually bouncing because you did not get pushed out of the area? What if they decided to add an entire faction taht was pure energy blasting and those ATs lacking good KB protection ended up bouncing half the fight? Because I suspect none of you would want to see that change made for the E side of pve.

 

And if I was running the game that would be the price the players would have to pay to have their want. suffering endless KD from then on in virtually every fight at a magnitude even tanks wouldnt be able to resist. Id give every mob air superiority in place of brawl. Every common minion a magnum pistol with a 100% KD effect. Every supa troll punch would lay anyone on their ass and so on. 

 

So tell me true would you anti KB fanatics that want KD everything be willing to live in that world to get your wish? Because my philosophy is always corrupt a wish when it comes to constant whinery.

Granted, but every elec attack saps you to 0% end, every psy attack sleeps, every Dark attack floors your tohit and perception, and so on. 

 

*Lethal Damage can crit you for AS levels of damage, after all it's lethal

*Toxic damages you for 1/10th your max HP unresistable per DoT tick

*Smashing lowers your resists and slows you per hit cus bruising you, etc

 

CoH hard mode lets gooooooo

 

 

 

On a more serious note, this won't change much if players hit first and lock down enemies, or if they are all running around with high defenses and dont get hit by the KB attacks anyways. Hell, as a squishy AT this is the reality vs some mobs in a lot of maps already where they chain KB 😛

 

If we are talking a truly "universal" change then sure, this would be the case. However this is clearly meant to be a player-specific option instead of game-wide. Knockback to a player has a bunch of different connotations than KB to a mob because the player can react much differently. 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Steampunkette]

7 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

1) Yes, at this point there are probably enough power combos that warrant there being a universal KB -> KD IO or some other option as an option.

 

2) On the flip-side, KB is fun and I still want to heavily campaign in favor of buffing it it be truly a cool effect. Touching on what I said about my blaster, KB can be very powerful and if it came with Stuns / More Damage / Etc then I feel that people who know how to use it already just benefit even more, and those who are learning how to use it best have a ton more leeway in terms of providing team utility where they are still defeating foes quickly or providing layers of safety to offset the cases where a frustrating interaction may occur. 

 

2.5) Given the last two points, I feel any KD conversion / option should be nerfed in that it does not get the KB benefits, whatever they may be. Sure, some powers like Bonfire may not benefit from KB still given how it works. But then look at say, Force Bolt where slotting for KB suddenly makes it really really good, and everything in between where it becomes a tactical choice of which you want which gives value to the individual IOs and the "Global" option.

1) It's an OPTION? No. It's an option for people who use KB to KD IOs to free up some measure of build space. And it's a capitulation to the KB to KD crowd. One more step towards "Should we just get rid of KB? Everyone uses the IOs, anyhow" outcome.

 

One more "You should just use the IO! Now you don't even have to mess up your overall slotting strategy!"

 

2) Buffing it is both useless to the core problem (People will still rant about KD being the right way to play) and power creepy (Increased Survivability/DPS for some powersets, none for most others)

 

Because the underlying problem is there and cannot -be- resolved: Some people hate KB with the fiery passion of a thousand dying stars and that's not going to change any time soon.

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

whatever it is, its an improvement over the current KB system

Plus the whole enemy flailing away in mid air makes me giggle 

[Haijinx]

I'm actually kind of interested in this for a build lm currently planning/sourcing.  Char is level 35 atm.

 

I'd like to put 5 complete purple sets in my STJ/ENA stalker, but the best spot for the targetted AOE set is Spinning Strike.

 

That is going to up the mag on 20% of my KDs it looks like, making those KB.  

 

Since the only reason this is going to happen is that all my slots for that power will be full, there is no further adjustment available.

 

For now, I am okay with the extra KBs as the trade off, but if I could throw a global KB->KD in kick, that would be ideal.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Haijinx

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

2) Buffing it is both useless to the core problem (People will still rant about KD being the right way to play) and power creepy (Increased Survivability/DPS for some powersets, none for most others)

I'm not entirely sure about this. To me, the root of the problem is that KB as it stands takes too much effort to use well for not enough payoff. Combined with how it's the one of the few effects in PvE that one player can do to affect the powers of another player, with the others being the cage/shift powers that lock targets out of combat with others for a bit, and straight up killing a target somebody else was gonna hit.

 

Of those, the cages/shifts are the worst as they pause gameplay for a bit for everyone, even though they keep you and the team about as safe as possible. Death is the best since... you know, that is how you accomplish your goals in CoH for 95% of gameplay, and it just kinda stinks when you whiff a big attack cus your target does via other means. Though, you still get rewarded for your team getting the KO so it's all cool, compared to your team locking you and everyone else from defeating the enemy with a cage. KB is in between these where it keeps you and allies safe, but it can prevent them from defeating foes efficiently due to moving them away from their powers.

 

This is why KD and KU are seen as so valuable since for most people ot provides about the same safety without the possibility of removing an enemy from play however briefly. Some people take that to extremes though which is unfortunate, much like how some vehemently hate Masterminds for the pets clogging maps or other xyz things. It's just that KB is a lot more common and easier to see in action.

 

However, when teamed with people who know what they are doing with all these things there is almost never any complaints in my experience. Dimension shift is awesome for saving a team, even though it might be awkward for ranged characters at first it still allows you to defeat the enemies. It used to not let you interact at all and that got changed to still be a defensive time-out option, but allow teams to still go into the dimension and kick ass. Masterminds may take up space, but when the pets are taking aggro off you and dishing out damage its groovy.

 

As for knockback, I firmly believe that giving it more value would alleviate some of the gripes people have with it. You throw an AoE knockback power and scatter enemies everywhere, currently it can be annoying in a team setting. If that is changed to where the enemies you scattered either are dead enemies or essentially put of the fight for a while then I think that perception would change for a good chunk of players. Not all, but a decent amount to where it's not automatically seen as bad and it becomes an interesting power choice for the individual, while still having great value either way to the team. Especially if say, if a target cant be knocked back they take impact damage like with Grav Control (as opposed to if you need your powers to being knockdown) then it could suddenly be super good to include people with force on your side.

 

Nothing that can be done would please everyone nor convert the most rabid of haters, but there are definitely options to work for both sides.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I'm not entirely sure about this. To me, the root of the problem is that KB as it stands takes too much effort to use well for not enough payoff. Combined with how it's the one of the few effects in PvE that one player can do to affect the powers of another player, with the others being the cage/shift powers that lock targets out of combat with others for a bit, and straight up killing a target somebody else was gonna hit.

 

Of those, the cages/shifts are the worst as they pause gameplay for a bit for everyone, even though they keep you and the team about as safe as possible. Death is the best since... you know, that is how you accomplish your goals in CoH for 95% of gameplay, and it just kinda stinks when you whiff a big attack cus your target does via other means. Though, you still get rewarded for your team getting the KO so it's all cool, compared to your team locking you and everyone else from defeating the enemy with a cage. KB is in between these where it keeps you and allies safe, but it can prevent them from defeating foes efficiently due to moving them away from their powers.

 

This is why KD and KU are seen as so valuable since for most people ot provides about the same safety without the possibility of removing an enemy from play however briefly. Some people take that to extremes though which is unfortunate, much like how some vehemently hate Masterminds for the pets clogging maps or other xyz things. It's just that KB is a lot more common and easier to see in action.

 

However, when teamed with people who know what they are doing with all these things there is almost never any complaints in my experience. Dimension shift is awesome for saving a team, even though it might be awkward for ranged characters at first it still allows you to defeat the enemies. It used to not let you interact at all and that got changed to still be a defensive time-out option, but allow teams to still go into the dimension and kick ass. Masterminds may take up space, but when the pets are taking aggro off you and dishing out damage its groovy.

 

As for knockback, I firmly believe that giving it more value would alleviate some of the gripes people have with it. You throw an AoE knockback power and scatter enemies everywhere, currently it can be annoying in a team setting. If that is changed to where the enemies you scattered either are dead enemies or essentially put of the fight for a while then I think that perception would change for a good chunk of players. Not all, but a decent amount to where it's not automatically seen as bad and it becomes an interesting power choice for the individual, while still having great value either way to the team. Especially if say, if a target cant be knocked back they take impact damage like with Grav Control (as opposed to if you need your powers to being knockdown) then it could suddenly be super good to include people with force on your side.

People don't "Scatter Enemies" for efficiency. The tank rounds them all up and the team drops all the AoE in the world on them to knock 'em out quickly. Typically with Tar Patch or some other Damres/Defense debuffing ability that, again, they have to be stacked close together to get them all debuffed.

 

"The KB Deals more Damage" doesn't change that. A minion with 1/4 HP instead of 1/2 HP still doesn't get hit by the Blaster's Nova because it's too far outside the area to get killed by the team's alpha.

 

It still requires 2 seconds of extra killing that the group could be using murdering some other group.

 

And don't get me started on Anchors being pushed away from groups... people will scream bloody murder if the person they've got Radiant Infection on gets blasted out of the group.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

15 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Let me ask all those campaigning for global KD a simple question what if it became a universal change and suddenly hurricane using bad guys like tsoo sorcers could put you in a state of perpetually bouncing because you did not get pushed out of the area? What if they decided to add an entire faction taht was pure energy blasting and those ATs lacking good KB protection ended up bouncing half the fight? Because I suspect none of you would want to see that change made for the E side of pve.

 

And if I was running the game that would be the price the players would have to pay to have their want. suffering endless KD from then on in virtually every fight at a magnitude even tanks wouldnt be able to resist. Id give every mob air superiority in place of brawl. Every common minion a magnum pistol with a 100% KD effect. Every supa troll punch would lay anyone on their ass and so on. 

 

So tell me true would you anti KB fanatics that want KD everything be willing to live in that world to get your wish? Because my philosophy is always corrupt a wish when it comes to constant whinery.

again, hurricane has a built in repel effect that is separate from the KB, you would still be pushed out even if the KB was converted to KD. Your char would just slide along on the floor lol

 

If the KB was like ki push it would be a slow float away giving players time to hit with their cones/aoe and since this would technically make KB better maybe reduce its chance of happening from 60% to 40% for balance or something like that?

[seebs]

I was just coming here to post a suggestion about a global KB->KD thing, but I suggest a toggle power that everyone gets. Why? Because it's situational. If I'm not on a team, it's quite common that I specifically want KB.

 

Bots masterminds shouldn't have to slot their bots with KB->KD in all three pets, hurting their performance noticably, just to avoid knocking things out of burn patches.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

14 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I'm not entirely sure about this. To me, the root of the problem is that KB as it stands takes too much effort to use well for not enough payoff. Combined with how it's the one of the few effects in PvE that one player can do to affect the powers of another player, with the others being the cage/shift powers that lock targets out of combat with others for a bit, and straight up killing a target somebody else was gonna hit.

 

Of those, the cages/shifts are the worst as they pause gameplay for a bit for everyone, even though they keep you and the team about as safe as possible. Death is the best since... you know, that is how you accomplish your goals in CoH for 95% of gameplay, and it just kinda stinks when you whiff a big attack cus your target does via other means. Though, you still get rewarded for your team getting the KO so it's all cool, compared to your team locking you and everyone else from defeating the enemy with a cage. KB is in between these where it keeps you and allies safe, but it can prevent them from defeating foes efficiently due to moving them away from their powers.

 

This is why KD and KU are seen as so valuable since for most people ot provides about the same safety without the possibility of removing an enemy from play however briefly. Some people take that to extremes though which is unfortunate, much like how some vehemently hate Masterminds for the pets clogging maps or other xyz things. It's just that KB is a lot more common and easier to see in action.

 

However, when teamed with people who know what they are doing with all these things there is almost never any complaints in my experience. Dimension shift is awesome for saving a team, even though it might be awkward for ranged characters at first it still allows you to defeat the enemies. It used to not let you interact at all and that got changed to still be a defensive time-out option, but allow teams to still go into the dimension and kick ass. Masterminds may take up space, but when the pets are taking aggro off you and dishing out damage its groovy.

 

As for knockback, I firmly believe that giving it more value would alleviate some of the gripes people have with it. You throw an AoE knockback power and scatter enemies everywhere, currently it can be annoying in a team setting. If that is changed to where the enemies you scattered either are dead enemies or essentially put of the fight for a while then I think that perception would change for a good chunk of players. Not all, but a decent amount to where it's not automatically seen as bad and it becomes an interesting power choice for the individual, while still having great value either way to the team. Especially if say, if a target cant be knocked back they take impact damage like with Grav Control (as opposed to if you need your powers to being knockdown) then it could suddenly be super good to include people with force on your side.

 

Nothing that can be done would please everyone nor convert the most rabid of haters, but there are definitely options to work for both sides.

You bring up the its not worth the time takes to much effort argument, but as Ive tried to point out that isnt really applicable in actual game play most of the time. Usually a team is either going to be plowing through so easy it simply does not matter if there is wasted DPS. Or its going to be challenging enough content that there will be adequate seconds to position oneself.

 

Let me give an in game example from just last night.

 

I joined a penny yin that was forming because I knew the one starting it and figured I could enjoy TFing without leading for once. Here was an interesting surprise, almost all the team, leader included were below lvl 25. I was the only decked out 50 in the group, and fortunately have my build made with exemping in mind. But I also keep a healthy supply of temp powers in case, which turned out to be a good thing.

 

I noticed pretty quick even the brutes and tanks in the team were hard pressed to handle the aggro and the supporters struggling to keep up with the dmg. So I started making use of the Force of Will KB wave, and the temp power energy wave KB from P2W . My approach with these powers has been the same since Live when it comes to group KB attacks. as I approach the group I use it to send the front ranks of the mobs flying back, I fly through the group and turn around and then do another to send the back ranks flying forward. Just that simple technique kept groups all KB CCed enough that the tank and brutes on the team no longer were being on the low side of health, no longer did the healing support seem to be struggling to keep up with the incoming dmg. Had the team been the typical Pen Yin composed mainly of exemped decked out Attuned IO set up 50s I would ofcourse not bothered and not needed to do that. I use my powers as the situation demands.

 

The above is what a skilled player using KB will do. People here bitching about KB are in fact bitching about unskilled play which is a player issue that only improves with play time. It does not need a game fix. The game is working fine, and players who use KB will either learn to use it well, or drop the character in search of a build they are better with.

 

The META gamers who just want herd tank and spank do not deserve any more ground given to them beyond what has already been with the KBto KD IOs already added. If they WANT more build power without using those, all they really want is more POWAH! without having to make a very reasonable build trade off for their preferred play style. If they get their demand catered to time and again this game will lose its heart and soul and become a dull as frell wasteland of only meta builds and only meta players.

[Myrmidon]

17 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Let me ask all those campaigning for global KD a simple question what if it became a universal change and suddenly hurricane using bad guys like tsoo sorcers could put you in a state of perpetually bouncing because you did not get pushed out of the area? What if they decided to add an entire faction taht was pure energy blasting and those ATs lacking good KB protection ended up bouncing half the fight? Because I suspect none of you would want to see that change made for the E side of pve.

 

And if I was running the game that would be the price the players would have to pay to have their want. suffering endless KD from then on in virtually every fight at a magnitude even tanks wouldnt be able to resist. Id give every mob air superiority in place of brawl. Every common minion a magnum pistol with a 100% KD effect. Every supa troll punch would lay anyone on their ass and so on. 

 

So tell me true would you anti KB fanatics that want KD everything be willing to live in that world to get your wish? Because my philosophy is always corrupt a wish when it comes to constant whinery.

That certainly would make slotting for KB protection interesting.😁

[RabbitUp]

Presenting this as a purely QoL change is quite disingenuous to be honest. It feels like the equivalent of asking for a global fear/stun to hold conversion so that the mobs don't wander off, which is a similar, even if admittedly milder, version of the KB situation.

 

A global conversion would have to come with some kind of drawback. After all, the devs would never design a set with good chances of short duration holds in every attack, which is what Energy Blast essentially turns into. Currently, the drawback is wasting enh slots. A global conversion would have to at least reduce the chances of KD occuring. That way, the option is between using the dedicated IOs to maintain higher CC potency at the cost of wasted slots, or sacrificing some CC for the convenience of a global conversion.

[Myrmidon]

On 12/25/2019 at 11:28 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

 

In the end the only players this proposed change would effect are those who do not know how to use KB effectively. Lets not force them to play OUR way lets give them an option to play KB classes with the same ease as the other AT's

Don’t leave out those of us that know how to leverage Knockback, but prefer not to bother with it if we can help it.

[Galaxy Brain]

13 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

People don't "Scatter Enemies" for efficiency. The tank rounds them all up and the team drops all the AoE in the world on them to knock 'em out quickly. Typically with Tar Patch or some other Damres/Defense debuffing ability that, again, they have to be stacked close together to get them all debuffed.

Right, people do not scatter for efficiency and I did not imply otherwise...? I knocked that behavior as it is a sign of poor KB management either from lack of experience with your powers or lack of care. The rest of this paragraph makes note of the general gameplay loop of CoH for many, many powers which is unfortunately interrupted by poor KB use. It can be enhanced by good KB use however! Its just that those who use it poorly stick out more and give KB-ers a bad name.

 

13 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

"The KB Deals more Damage" doesn't change that. A minion with 1/4 HP instead of 1/2 HP still doesn't get hit by the Blaster's Nova because it's too far outside the area to get killed by the team's alpha.

 

It still requires 2 seconds of extra killing that the group could be using murdering some other group.

Tbf, a Blaster with Nova probably knocked them away too 😛

 

But I think this comes down to how much that impacts damage. Like, lets say there is some function that treats KB as a damage proc based on the Magnitude and the Chance. Higher the Mag, the lower the Chance, the better the bonus damage. 

 

Power Bolt for example has a 20% Chance to cause Mag 1.2~ish KB on a Blaster. That is a low mag, but the low % chance should boost whatever value that the bonus damage is up a good bit to be essentially a damage proc.

 

Energy Torrent has a 60% chance to cause Mag 5.0~ish KB. A good deal more Mag here would mean more damage, but the much higher chance could weigh that down, on top of being an AoE.

 

Power Push has a 100% Chance to cause Mag 13.2~ish KB. When 100% Chance for very high mag KB comes into play is where it gets a little weird, but I feel if a change like this was put in place then the stats could be altered for the power itself and/or the damage for 100% chance of KB powers is weighed heavily so that it is not too much, but still I imagine the following is what Power Push should be:

 

Fling one dude across the map and they splat into something anyways.

 

Anywho, if Knockback were treated more like the above gif where its a fight-ending event or at least way more impactful like you see in that one episode of JL:U where Supes punches Darkseid through multiple buildings (High Mag), or like when Storm blows all the rando mooks the Xmen were fighting across the room and they are incapacitated (Gale), and so on, it would be seen as something really cool and powerful more often than annoying. Like sure, Explosive blast yeeted 1/2 the mob into the wall across the room, but those yeeted enemies are probably dead due to the KB proc and the ones who didn't get flung are prime to take more damage and be herded / etc.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

The above is what a skilled player using KB will do.

Yes, which is an awesome use of it! That said, it required you to use the map, careful coordination and expertise, and dedicating time to doing that (not to mention being the only person doing AoE KB in the group)

 

52 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

People here bitching about KB are in fact bitching about unskilled play which is a player issue that only improves with play time. It does not need a game fix. The game is working fine, and players who use KB will either learn to use it well, or drop the character in search of a build they are better with.

Problem here is that while yeah it is an issue that goes away as you learn how to use and leverage it, during that time your powers effect the gameplay of others which is where this whole divide came from in the first place. Players trying out KB sets will either adapt and find joy in using it, or they see that it is a nuisance and avoid the KB powers / slot them away asap. The players that learn to use KB are also then stuck with needing to learn maneuvers and the like to leverage it when other types of CC or raw damage would do the job just as well if not better without needing the steep learning curve and time spent on positioning.

 

A boost to KB powers is not just a boost to "Meta" players, of which you are one by stating you are playing to the KB meta of how to properly use KB at a proficient/meta level, but to anyone who may find high knockback fun by rewarding them relative to how KB may otherwise be difficult to use.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Right, people do not scatter for efficiency and I did not imply otherwise...? I knocked that behavior as it is a sign of poor KB management either from lack of experience with your powers or lack of care. The rest of this paragraph makes note of the general gameplay loop of CoH for many, many powers which is unfortunately interrupted by poor KB use. It can be enhanced by good KB use however! Its just that those who use it poorly stick out more and give KB-ers a bad name.

 

Tbf, a Blaster with Nova probably knocked them away too 😛

 

But I think this comes down to how much that impacts damage. Like, lets say there is some function that treats KB as a damage proc based on the Magnitude and the Chance. Higher the Mag, the lower the Chance, the better the bonus damage. 

 

Power Bolt for example has a 20% Chance to cause Mag 1.2~ish KB on a Blaster. That is a low mag, but the low % chance should boost whatever value that the bonus damage is up a good bit to be essentially a damage proc.

 

Energy Torrent has a 60% chance to cause Mag 5.0~ish KB. A good deal more Mag here would mean more damage, but the much higher chance could weigh that down, on top of being an AoE.

 

Power Push has a 100% Chance to cause Mag 13.2~ish KB. When 100% Chance for very high mag KB comes into play is where it gets a little weird, but I feel if a change like this was put in place then the stats could be altered for the power itself and/or the damage for 100% chance of KB powers is weighed heavily so that it is not too much, but still I imagine the following is what Power Push should be:

 

Fling one dude across the map and they splat into something anyways.

 

Anywho, if Knockback were treated more like the above gif where its a fight-ending event or at least way more impactful like you see in that one episode of JL:U where Supes punches Darkseid through multiple buildings (High Mag), or like when Storm blows all the rando mooks the Xmen were fighting across the room and they are incapacitated (Gale), and so on, it would be seen as something really cool and powerful more often than annoying. Like sure, Explosive blast yeeted 1/2 the mob into the wall across the room, but those yeeted enemies are probably dead due to the KB proc and the ones who didn't get flung are prime to take more damage and be herded / etc.

 

 

Yes, which is an awesome use of it! That said, it required you to use the map, careful coordination and expertise, and dedicating time to doing that (not to mention being the only person doing AoE KB in the group)

 

Problem here is that while yeah it is an issue that goes away as you learn how to use and leverage it, during that time your powers effect the gameplay of others which is where this whole divide came from in the first place. Players trying out KB sets will either adapt and find joy in using it, or they see that it is a nuisance and avoid the KB powers / slot them away asap. The players that learn to use KB are also then stuck with needing to learn maneuvers and the like to leverage it when other types of CC or raw damage would do the job just as well if not better without needing the steep learning curve and time spent on positioning.

 

A boost to KB powers is not just a boost to "Meta" players, of which you are one by stating you are playing to the KB meta of how to properly use KB at a proficient/meta level, but to anyone who may find high knockback fun by rewarding them relative to how KB may otherwise be difficult to use.

I a META player? No not by a  long shot and perhaps you have a  looser definition of the term META as it applies to game play then myself. In COH a META player is one taht builds only the most recognized best power combos in any given AT for specific functions. They only play either solo or in static groups designed to optimize their teams buffs, CC, and DPS.  And in the case of the topic of this discussion they only use KB powers that have been converted to KD, because that is surprise surprise the current META for KB powers in the build community.

 

What I described above in my post is simply good tactical use of a powers soft CC aspect to help reduce stress on my puggles. By the fact I was not using my builds full DPS potential and instead using a rrather weak pool attack and a weak temp power attack to turn a scrapper into a support CC part of the time I was not anywhere near META, the fact I was ona  pug full of folks leveling random builds all barely high enough to even be on the TF I was anything but META. being good at a game doesnt make you META. Yes META players are good, hell even great at the games they play, they achieve that by turning the game into an exercise in grinding/farming and pure math working the numbers to always be in their favor down to the last .00001%. When games especially mmorpg have catered to the demands of their meta playerbase, every time Ive seen that happen its lead to the MMO losing its unique charm, and the community that gives it the heart and soul drift away till only math e sport jocks are left and few if any people remain to join pugs for the casual newcomers to play with leading to high attrition of potential new players.

 

Fortunately unlike some of those other games COH doesnt take a lot to make a  character able to function in even high lvl harder content. This is a good thing as it means casuals and newcomers can enjoy all the game has to offer. Something we see some power gamers complain about on these forums wanting content only the best builds and best teams can accomplish and want cosmetics, and other special perks gated behind it to have as trophies to lord over the dirty have nots.

 

The very fact my main ol berk is a psi/ment blaster rather then a dark ment should tell you I put flavor and concept well above meta power. Because as someone who knows every blaster set from live intimately I can assure you Dark Primary is basically the best for every DPS set with access to it. And yes I do have a dark melee scrapper, and I do have a dark blast sentinel. But they are not my mains, and they are dark users because of RP concepts first and foremost.

 

There is a line between META and just a good builder/player, though like I said maybe your definition of META is just so loose that basically anyone not outright bad at a game qualifies. But to be META in a game like LOL trust me its not merely enough to be good at the game and hold your own.

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Don’t leave out those of us that know how to leverage Knockback, but prefer not to bother with it if we can help it.

On an Eng blaster you can easily get off twice as many useful Eng Torrents and Explosive Blasts if they have KB->KD in them.  

 

Since position no longer matters, its like bowling with hand grenades. 

[Galaxy Brain]

57 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

What I described above in my post is simply good tactical use of a powers soft CC aspect to help reduce stress on my puggles.

By doing so, you played into the meta for knockback. You went above and beyond to use control in a way that was beneficial, which is something a casual player would not do. In this particular example, doing so saved the team's butt given the circumstances by the sound of it and the dps part of your character may not have been as optimal there. A casual player would have just kept trying to kill stuff in front of them and possibly knocked enemies away and into a scattered area since those powers were available, rather than think about the effects of said powers as they are chosen. You had awareness well beyond that level and could leverage the tools available to go beyond what they say on the can, which is essentially what meta gaming is (game within the game).

 

At much higher levels, sure this is sub optimal due to how much faster and safer people can plow through stuff. That is a seperate discussion when it comes to overall difficulty, but I feel it has a place on the table here if just a corner seat. 

 

As for the charm of CoH, I think it will take a lot more than boosting knockback to get rid of that. You said it yourself, the charm of CoH is being able to make fun combos and thematic characters from a titanic array of possibilities and have them all actually *work*. There is no "bottom tier trash" in CoH where it is utterly unplayable or downright broken. Can everyone do "everything"? No, but so many can and everyone brings value to the table so it's hardly an issue.  

 

A boost to KB to make it a "meta" choice compared to KD wont just cater to the high end players IMO. I have several people who are brand new to CoH and are surprised to see that powers like Gale dont do bonus damage when you get a guy off a high spot, or across the room, and so on. Flinging people doesnt always feel right when it comes to the actual impact / progressing through an encounter. In other games, high knockback that had an animation like in CoH (as opposed to just pushing ala Repel) always has great connotations. Looking at some of the greats... Super Smash Brothers is like the antithesis of this whole thread lol. That game is all about knockback and using big, meaty hits to launch foes to win. In CoH, launching foes is not currently tied to winning directly even if it has situational value, much like how keeping an enemy still and doing damage to them is useful in Smash, but generally doesn't win the game.

 

The objective in CoH for both casual and meta is to beat up the bad guys most of the time. The issue currently is that while KB can make it safer to do this, it is also one of the only effects that can hamper you from beating up bad guys depending on the situation. If it had bonus bad guy beating effects, it would have thematic impact for casuals (itd be fun as hell to use power push and have KB slotting be the primary damage component as you launch somebody to space) and meta implication where you could net more output with the drawback of a learning curve and the general KB issues we see presently.