Global Knockback->Knockdown IO for Travel Powers/Rest

[TorrentYed]

For folks that want to convert the knockback in their powers to knockdown without compromising their builds, would it be possible to create an IO that could be slotted into one of the different sprint powers or Rest itself?

[Call Me Awesome]

A global KB-KD proc would be a beautiful thing, as a suggestion simply change the Overwhelming Force IO to a Global instead of creating an "orphan" IO or another new set.  That solves the KB problem and allows those who want to selectively keep KB to use the Sudden Acceleration IO instead.  Admittedly I don't know of any specifics but since we already have other global effect IO's in the game (LOTG 7.5% recharge for example) it should be doable without much trouble.

[Razor Cure]

Make it so!

[Myrmidon]

11 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

A global KB-KD proc would be a beautiful thing, as a suggestion simply change the Overwhelming Force IO to a Global instead of creating an "orphan" IO or another new set.  That solves the KB problem and allows those who want to selectively keep KB to use the Sudden Acceleration IO instead.  Admittedly I don't know of any specifics but since we already have other global effect IO's in the game (LOTG 7.5% recharge for example) it should be doable without much trouble.

1,000,000 times this. 

[Parabola]

20 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

A global KB-KD proc would be a beautiful thing, as a suggestion simply change the Overwhelming Force IO to a Global instead of creating an "orphan" IO or another new set.  That solves the KB problem and allows those who want to selectively keep KB to use the Sudden Acceleration IO instead.  Admittedly I don't know of any specifics but since we already have other global effect IO's in the game (LOTG 7.5% recharge for example) it should be doable without much trouble.

Yeah, gets my vote.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

dude every month theres a push for this i agree but too many people are against having more options

[Redlynne]

27 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

but too many people are against having more options

We call them "wrong" ... it saves time.

[SeraphimKensai]

I would do the Overwhelming Force and Sudden Acceleration in reverse, so that Sudden Acceleration is the global as there are knockback powers that do no damage so overwhelming force can't be slotted. All powers that do knockback that do damage can also slot a sudden acceleration. That way a set like energy blast could use the universal damage IOs in select powers to change the interaction of powers individually if they wanted to keep a particular power doing knockback as necessary.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i dunno man previous threads have already shown the sudden acceleration set makes no sense, all parts increase KB except for the proc that removes it completely rendering the entire sets purpose weirdly useless

 

I cant say they are wrong everyone is entitled to their own opinion i just dont understand the point of view that if people were given the OPTION, to change KB to KD globally that it would somehow diminish their playstyle.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Saiyajinzoningen

[Outrider_01]

/jranger

 

Problem is, one IO would benifit some sets entirely.  It completly changes the game, for the cost of 1 IO.  Better suggestion is to add some damage to the knock back set that makes the knock back attacks from low damage to moderate damage with the option of a knockdown modifier.  Perhaps give every knockback some damage bonus and the option of different procs in every set; immobilize, a stun, hold that 'ticks' 1 second after  after flying.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Yes one IO can benefit some sets entirely such as steadfast protection giving knockback protection greatly benefits both fire and dark melee since they have no built in KB protection.

the next issue is both KB and KD are unreliable. for example

 

Fire sets enemy ablaze every time

Ice slows everytime

Dark -tohitdebuff every time

Rad -defense everytime

sonic -resist everytime

elec - drains end everytime (returns end to player sometimes is the proc)

 

Its difficult to use CC effectively if its unreliable. Im not saying give EB 100% chance for KB or KD. What i am saying is KB is more complex to use than other CC abilities AND its unreliable this makes it unfeasible for some users but not unplayable

[FDR's Think Tank]

If the game had tons of environmental hazards that knocking enemies into would deal extra damage, knockback wouldn't be so awful... but that's the sort of think that you had to have in the game in the first place. Technically, there are those Electro Zappers in DFB, for instance. It's hilarious to kill mobs with those, but DFB is too easy to require it.

 

Maybe you could make something in AE with more lava pits, bubbling vats of chemicals, spiked walls, Hamidon Psy Damage Zones, and such for characters to use knockback in. Remember that episode of the 1960's Batman where they bring back the villain's girl to the Batcave and in a fit of hysterics, she falls into the unprotected open-top Nuclear Reactor he used to somehow "fuel" the Batmobile? That's the sort of thing you want knockback for, not launching your foes out harmlessly into the lake so they have to run up to you again.

 

Isn't Knockback really more of a fun thing that a strategically useful thing at this point? I don't see many people who have knockback powers use it to herd mobs to the team tank.

 

It's probably easier to let people change knockback into knockdown. I always thought knockdown was conceived as the weaker cousin of knockback, but practical realities of gameplay made Knockdown far more useful for most people.

[Galaxy Brain]

Gonna link to my old thread about KB here:
 

 

TL;DR, Knockback is in a weird spot for CoH. The immediate benefit is that the enemy is stuck in an animation where they cannot act for a certain amount of time, which both Knock Down and Knock Up accomplish as well. That said, the meta of CoH favors enemies being in groups to be targeted by the multitude of fun AoE powers or location based abilities, and it stinks when enemies go out of those ranges.

 

When used well, you can leverage knockback to put enemies *into* these areas, but that takes time and coordination that other effects do not need in order to be leveraged. When used poorly, you actively knock enemies away from formations and can actually make it more dangerous as enemies with ranged attacks can now fire at you separately and increase the time to defeat of the encounter / risk of taking damage.  

 

Knockdown / Up has the benefit of locking enemies into an animation without the drawback of needing to be accurately coordinated or (usually) flinging enemies outside of attack zones. In my opinion, Knockback has too much downside compared to other options and it'd be nice if it had a benefit over the others so it is more of a tactical choice or preference. Examples could be... KB has a damage proc when you fling a target, Knockback has a much longer "getting up" animation than KD for control, or so on. Until that, its my opinion that KB is strictly worse in the grand scheme as evidenced by how much better many powers become when you convert it, and why it is such a struggle to leverage the limited IO space.

 

 

[gameboy1234]

If this happens, I'd also ask for a global proc for Brawl.  Seems an obvious place to put such a power.  Brawl, Sprint, Rest, and maybe one of the Health pool powers too, since everyone has that now.

[Outrider_01]

4 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Yes one IO can benefit some sets entirely such as steadfast protection giving knockback protection greatly benefits both fire and dark melee since they have no built in KB protection

I understand what your saying, but melee already have status protection to everything else, *shrug* its kinda a no brainer and a freebie benifit.  Also benifits squishy, knockback is worse then a hold as they go flying.

 

Offensively, knock back/down is an entirely different matter.  Either it hits or fails to knockback but some attacks/utility are designed to toss things on their ass.  Power Thrust is a good example, 8 mag so it hits average bosses like the Hulk.  Not the best example though, but I think procs or damage maybe reduce the chance or mag of the hit, hell maybe convert to a stun or hold for a few seconds in the entire set with better bonuses changes, none of the  ones current is any good. 

 

Just converting all knockback  to down or a single IO in the entire power set is kinda over powered for attacks.  The protection, justs add to the character and maybe 2 if you want to turn a blaster into a sent...but the attack part would be like asking for said blaster to get status protection to everything in a single IO instead of the reduction the sets give ( and acrobatics comes at the cost of several power picks which is totally  not the topic I know) slotting the suggetion would be way easier but there has to be a cost cause the OP  says "sprints or rest".  

 

Honestly, the single IO per attack is kinda OP as is yet costs to much like an cause you are giving it up per that 1 slot.  Should of been a set bonus to convert KB to KD for the entire character with a single set slotted, there is a few that give protection to knockback at 4 bonuses for 1 set.

[dangeraaron10]

On 12/13/2019 at 2:42 PM, Call Me Awesome said:

A global KB-KD proc would be a beautiful thing, as a suggestion simply change the Overwhelming Force IO to a Global instead of creating an "orphan" IO or another new set.  That solves the KB problem and allows those who want to selectively keep KB to use the Sudden Acceleration IO instead.  Admittedly I don't know of any specifics but since we already have other global effect IO's in the game (LOTG 7.5% recharge for example) it should be doable without much trouble.

I'd be all over this.  I'd much rather slot one Overwhelming Force and take care of my KB woes than to clog up my slots with Sudden Acceleration.  I like the idea of the latter existing for those that want to cherry pick which powers do KB and which do KD.  

[Bossk_Hogg]

Null the gull option FTW.

 

Expect to be shouted down by the usual pro-knockback spazzes who want to pretend that knockback is mainly a benefit yet still insist on making it difficult to remove. Or whine that they'll be forced to turn it off on some teams... news flash guys - you'd be kicked or not invited to those teams anyways.

[Bossk_Hogg]

Also, simply making Sudden Acceleration into an intelligently designed set would be great. Right now you have a set that builds up knockback only to remove it. Who the hell designed it like that? If they swapped the knockback portion of the enhancers to damage and recharge you could actually use the set in attacks aside from the set only being good for the -knockback IO. Call it Sudden Deceleration.  

[Saiyajinzoningen]

if knockback is such a benefit does that technically mean we are asking for a nerf?

[Galaxy Brain]

11 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

if knockback is such a benefit does that technically mean we are asking for a nerf?

See my above post and linked thread

[Saiyajinzoningen]

it was a rhetorical question lol

[DrRocket]

Why force a player to essentially waste a slot for a knockbac to knockdown?

 

Why not add the option in the Options section? Just like we can have teleport ask us if we want to be transported.

 

The player should have a choice in the matter, in real life we do, so why not in the game?

 

I can seldom see a melee type ever wanting knockback, while blasters would want knockback when soloing but never when in a team for very obvious reasons. There has to be a mechanism to be able to go back and forth, and using the IO system simply does not meet the criteria.

 

 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

theres lots of ways this can be implemented, it could be a toggle accolade, a new incarnate choice, a global IO, null the gull. the possibilities are endless

[Call Me Awesome]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

theres lots of ways this can be implemented, it could be a toggle accolade, a new incarnate choice, a global IO, null the gull. the possibilities are endless

Absolutely.  I don't have a real preference on HOW it works but I do agree it would be a great QoL option.  I'd just prefer not having to devote a slot on every KB power to get it.

 

Right now I have 4 KB-KD IO's on my Peacebringer and just deal with the occasional KB from other powers.  My Fire/EM blaster however only needs to convert the APP power Bonfire... a FANTASTIC power as KD, a mostly useless/situational one as KB.  (Popcorn is better than Stir Fry after all)  On the other hand some characters would want to have a KB "positioning" power along with other KD powers so the option is good.

 

Hmm, I wonder if it's possible to tie it to Power Customization like as an alternate animation?

[Outrider_01]

19 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Also, simply making Sudden Acceleration into an intelligently designed set would be great. Right now you have a set that builds up knockback only to remove it. Who the hell designed it like that? If they swapped the knockback portion of the enhancers to damage and recharge you could actually use the set in attacks aside from the set only being good for the -knockback IO. Call it Sudden Deceleration.  

Pretty much what I was trying to say above you, and have a "knock down" bonus like the defence/regen/+dmg ect.  Make knockback powers do damage, and have a set bonus to remove the back to down.

 

6 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Why not add the option in the Options section? Just like we can have teleport ask us if we want to be transported.

Its server side, not client side.  At least I would assume so.  Given that a teleport hits you, it makes a check against the options.  Server side, your hitting NPCs....how would you calculate to use knockdown where all the calculations are done?  Check for all every bad guy? Suddenly your powers don't knock back?  All stats shown in the info screen are used client side difficult to just "remove" that ability with a basic option. Might as well let squishy classes have the option to +protection to status effect and make sentinel cry if your a blaster, without the armor of the sentinel.