Leadership: Victory Rush needs more research

[Redlynne]

So I keep looking at the Leadership pool power Victory Rush ... and I keep not finding answers for questions.

 

I can tell that Victory Rush is limited to being available only once per 5 minutes, since it has a 300s recharge time and the power IGNORES recharge buffing (as designed) ... but getting info on what the power "does" when used on various ranks of $Targets is extremely hard to come by.  My copy of the build planner only has this to say in the Window > Data View ...

 

 

... which doesn't help all that much.

Pretty much the only thing I can tell from this is that Victory Rush will create a different "pet" at the (defeated) $Target you cast the power on which then lasts for 2 seconds, which is presumably long enough to buff everyone within 100ft of the (defeated) $Target.  Furthermore, the "strength" of the buff that "pet" delivers to everyone within the 100ft radius is different depending on whether you're using the power on an Underling, a Minion, a Lieutenant, a Boss, an Elite Boss or an Archvillan/Giant Monster.

 

The power description says that everyone buffed gets an endurance recovery buff (like Physical Perfection?) and an endurance cost reduction (like Conserve Power?) ... but how much (of each) for how long (for each) is left completely unspecified.  Does the duration of the effects vary with the rank of the $Target as well as the "strength" of the buff you get from Victory Rush?  Does Victory Rush have a better "uptime" when used on higher ranked (defeated) $Targets?

 

Is there anyone on these forums who would like to do the necessary research to quantify for us what Victory Rush ACTUALLY DOES when used on various ranks of (defeated) $Targets?

 

 

 

And as if that weren't enough ... according to the build planner you can slot Endurance Modification sets into Victory Rush, which then gives you access to the Energy Manipulator and Performance Shifter procs.  Given the way that Victory Rush is (for lack of a better term) ... structured ... is there any point at all in ever using either the Energy Manipulator proc or the Performance Shifter proc in Victory Rush?  Are there any edge cases in how Victory Rush "works" such that it would make a good candidate (the only candidate?) for putting the Energy Manipulator proc into?

 

I ask because if you don't know in advance how procs are going to function inside of a power, the default position is to simply not use any of those procs in that power.  That gets worse when you can't even tell how the power actually "works" in practice due to a lack of available documentation.

 

So ... any testers out there willing to take up the challenge of quantifying and documenting Victory Rush adequately enough for it to be evaluated for use?

[siolfir]

Well, to be fair, the pet summon is all that's in City of Data and the wayback machine doesn't have the pages showing the pet summons to get the numbers from.

 

For once, the in-game numbers are useful, though - the order, in increasing strength is:

• Underlings, turrets: +5% recovery, 2.5% endurance discount
• Minions: +10% recovery, 5% endurance discount
• Lieutenants: +30% recovery, 15% endurance discount
• Bosses: +60% recovery, +30% endurance discount
• Elite Bosses: +80% recovery, +40% endurance discount
• AVs/GMs: +100% recovery, +50% endurance discount

All of the buffs last for 2 minutes, and only the recovery portion is enhanceable.

 

I haven't done any testing with it, but I would imagine that the procs would be mostly useless; they're probably fire at a high rate, but once every 5 minutes doesn't make it worthwhile to me.

[MetaVileTerror]

Important bit of information:  Victory Rush does not buff your pets or your teammates' pets.
Between that and the Recharge time which can't be changed, Victory Rush is presently Not Worth It.

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, siolfir said:

For once, the in-game numbers are useful, though - the order, in increasing strength is:

• Underlings, turrets: +5% recovery, 2.5% endurance discount, 2 minute duration, 5 minute recharge
• Minions: +10% recovery, 5% endurance discount, 2 minute duration, 5 minute recharge
• Lieutenants: +30% recovery, 15% endurance discount, 2 minute duration, 5 minute recharge
• Bosses: +60% recovery, +30% endurance discount, 2 minute duration, 5 minute recharge
• Elite Bosses: +80% recovery, +40% endurance discount, 2 minute duration, 5 minute recharge
• AVs/GMs: +100% recovery, +50% endurance discount, 2 minute duration, 5 minute recharge

 

4 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Victory Rush is presently Not Worth It.

 

Curious.  I would have thought that a(n up to) 40% uptime on being able to not need to worry about endurance after downing a Boss (or higher ranked Foe(s)) would be relatively useful ... especially as a stopgap counter to endurance drains like you tend to get from Malta Sappers and the like.  Unless I'm getting my math wrong, +30% recovery ought to be around +0.48 end/s (more if you have increased Max Endurance above 100), which would "not suck" on a 2 minute duration.  I guess what I'm getting at is that a 2 minute uptime with a 3 minute downtime (although, granted, the time between uses will almost always be longer than 3 minutes due to the need for a defeated $Target) really doesn't sound all that bad.

 

I mean, Recovery Aura for Empaths has a 500s recharge (not 300s) and a 90s duration (not 120s) and does +200% recovery (rather than +5% to +100% recovery plus 2.5% to +50% endurance discounting) ... but Recovery Aura can be slotted for recharge and benefits from global recharge buffs, unlike Victory Rush.  But just purely in terms of uptime, in order to achieve a 40% uptime on Recovery Aura like you can get with Victory Rush, you need to have +122.23% recharge on Recovery Aura (which is easy enough to do with Hasten and set bonuses, granted) ... and you can only get better than that by spending additional slots on Recovery Aura.  Point being that in terms of primary/secondary versus pool power usefulness scaling, I'm getting a pretty strong sense that Victory Rush compares favorably to Recovery Aura for archetypes and powersets that don't have access to a Recovery Aura type power (or Stygian Circle, or...).  Likewise, you can compare Victory Rush to the Epic pool Conserve Power ... which has a 600s recharge (not 300s) and a 90s duration (not 120s) and in order to reach a 40% uptime with Conserve Power you'd need to have +166.67% total recharge on Conserve Power (which, again, is "doable" with Hasten and set bonuses and enhancement slotting) ... and on top of that Victory Rush affects an entire team(!), unlike Conserve Power (which only affects yourself).

 

So Victory Rush feels kind of like a half Recovery Aura/half Conserve Power styled power (taking bits of both) which lasts for 120s when used (not 90s) and which requires NO slotting whatsoever in order to reach an up to 40% uptime on its use, making Victory Rush an almost ideal One Slot Wonder™ power if you haven't got any more slots to spend and aren't in "need" of additional set mules and if you're already invested into the Leadership pool.

 

Thanks @siolfir, that's EXACTLY what I needed to know in order to better appreciate the "value" that Victory Rush brings to the table, particularly in a team context, and especially in the context of being faced with $Targets who can drain endurance and endurance recovery.  Very good to know indeed!

[siolfir]

6 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Unless I'm getting my math wrong, +30% recovery ought to be around +0.48 end/s

It's unslotted Quick Recovery. A boss would be slotted QR.

[MetaVileTerror]

I would be okay with the present timer on it, if it applied the buff to Pets.
I'd be okay with it not applying to Pets, if I could slot some Recharge Enhancements in there.

 

Maybe I'm just not teaming enough to get the most out of it, but I find that even while solo, the Leadership Toggles do wonders for my Masterminds, and even my Controllers/Dominators when there's room for them in the Build.  I haven't played a Soldier with Arachnos Pets galore yet, but I also imagine that double Leadership Toggles could be handy there too.

On top of that, I hear so many other players go on and on about how they never suffer Endurance woes after getting their IO Sets set up.  So then my Victory Rush probably wouldn't even be that helpful to my teammates anyway.
I suppose I could be biased due to the bitterness of finding out that my Pets are still gasping for air constantly with their Endurance bars depleted after trying to give them the Victory Rush buff to no avail.  I'd just like one of those two previously mentioned limitations addressed before I consider Victory Rush useful again.

[Crysis]

I’ve taken it on a few AT’s now, and have found it highly useful pre-Ageless for END hungry characters, particularly when soloing.  It’s a decent one-slot wonder, although if you can give it two END mods it works even better.  I do not keep it once I get Ageless for obvious reasons, but as a leveling tool it’s actually pretty decent if you’ve already gotten the rest of the Leadership trio.  Vengeance is clearly not useful to a soloist.

 

There’s a few guides running around that recommend taking it for END hungry builds as a leveling tool as well, which is where I got the idea.

 

Part of the issue with so many builds posted is that they are ALL Incarnate builds that rely on many sets you can only slot (or Catalyze) at lvl 50.  So while they work great for the endgame, you’ve got a long road to get there.  To me, Victory Rush and Vengeance are both “road to 50” powers, useful for aiding that purpose.  I view medicine pool much the same way, although generally respec out of it by level 40.

[Redlynne]

2 minutes ago, Crysis said:

Vengeance is clearly not useful to a soloist.

Except as a Luck of the Gambler mule for the global recharge IO.

[Vulpoid]

So....
How many slots and what would you put in them?
😀

[Redlynne]

15 hours ago, Vulpoid said:

So....
How many slots and what would you put in them?
😀

Me?

 

Maneuvers: usually 1 to 6 (sets vary depending on the rest of the build)

Assault: 1 Endurance Reduction

Tactics: usually 1 or 6 Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control

Vengeance: 1 Luck of the Gambler global recharge

Victory Rush: 1 Endurance Modification

[Vulpoid]

10 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Me?

 

Maneuvers: usually 1 to 6 (sets vary depending on the rest of the build)

Assault: 1 Endurance Reduction

Tactics: usually 1 or 6 Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control

Vengeance: 1 Luck of the Gambler global recharge

Victory Rush: 1 Endurance Modification

Thank you so much!
I was specifically asking about Victory Rush, but your response is even better, Thanks again!

[macskull]

Victory Rush is a weird power for me. It ignores global recharge (already making it less useful) and you can't mule any decent sets into it. If it were earlier in the leadership pool it might be worthwhile but IMO at that point it's a choice between Vengeance and Victory Rush and Veng wins that one 99% of the time solely because I can slap an LotG in there and call it good.

[Lazarillo]

On 12/15/2019 at 3:15 PM, MetaVileTerror said:

Important bit of information:  Victory Rush does not buff your pets or your teammates' pets.
Between that and the Recharge time which can't be changed, Victory Rush is presently Not Worth It.

It's maybe not so great, but I feel like any power that is situationally useful without having to toss any enhancement slots on it is potentially Worth It. 

[Peacemoon]

On 1/18/2020 at 4:29 PM, macskull said:

Victory Rush is a weird power for me. It ignores global recharge (already making it less useful) and you can't mule any decent sets into it. If it were earlier in the leadership pool it might be worthwhile but IMO at that point it's a choice between Vengeance and Victory Rush and Veng wins that one 99% of the time solely because I can slap an LotG in there and call it good.

One thing I’d say about victory rush and vengeance, victory rush you can use it every 5 minutes without fail. Even on a boss it is a significant buff for the whole team, especially with the end reduction factored in.

 

Vengeance is great of course, but someone has to die. Arguably it’s really good when you need it most, but you can run many TFs and not have a single casualty. 
 

I took both, but if you’re short on power slots and don’t need recharge, I’d probably go victory rush since it just speeds up most teams really well.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Peacemoon

[twozerofoxtrot]

On 1/17/2020 at 6:10 PM, Redlynne said:

Victory Rush: 1 Endurance Modification

 

Myself, I'd vote for the Synapse's proc.  Mmmmm 15% Runspeed... (and still a bit of endmod to boot!)

[Redlynne]

24 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Myself, I'd vote for the Synapse's proc.  Mmmmm 15% Runspeed... (and still a bit of endmod to boot!)

Well ... NOW ... sure ... but the Synapse's set didn't exist when I posted that, so times have changed on that score.

[Peacemoon]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Well ... NOW ... sure ... but the Synapse's set didn't exist when I posted that, so times have changed on that score.

Yeah I found this thread via google because I wasn’t sure if this power was getting affected by enhancements properly 🙈

 

With a level 25 end mod enhancement it was giving such a rounded number on a boss and lieutenant I suspected it wasn’t being enhanced at all! I’ll have to test it further...

[Jaguaratron]

VR isnt anything I would likely take but someone had it on one of the lower TFs and I was grateful for it

[twozerofoxtrot]

On 4/20/2020 at 7:53 PM, Redlynne said:

Well ... NOW ... sure ... but the Synapse's set didn't exist when I posted that, so times have changed on that score.

I am dumb. 😛

[Sir Myshkin]

For the (late) record: Victory Rush, Conserve Power, and Unleash Potential are what make my Storm/Nrg Defender endurance neutral and allow me to play any content from level 23 and up with a fair amount of safety from a blue-bar perspective. Don't need that pesky Ageless mucking about in my build, it's already recharge capped! mwuahaha!

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

For the (late) record: Victory Rush, Conserve Power, and Unleash Potential are what make my Storm/Nrg Defender endurance neutral and allow me to play any content from level 23 and up with a fair amount of safety from a blue-bar perspective. Don't need that pesky Ageless mucking about in my build, it's already recharge capped! mwuahaha!

My Rad Defender is only 28 but I am the same, I swap between AM and Victory Rush and it helps a lot. The fact victory rush also reduces end costs makes it super powerful for end management. Even a lieutenant is a good bonus.

 

I did some testing however and it doesn’t look like end mods work in victory rush - my initial suspicion was correct that it gives the same end recovery with or without enhancements. I’ve created a post on the bug forum. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Peacemoon