Level 1 choices on secondary sets.

[QuiJon]

Just have been thinking and I can not really think of a good reason why this should not be done. But why not change character creation so that at the time we make a character we can choose either the first or second tier powers from both our primary and secondary pools. 

 

You can still only choose one from each mind you, but like with primary you as a blaster say get a choice normally between your "bolts" attack a fast firing low damage attack and a "blast" attack a med damage long recharge attack. But when I make say a defender, though the power pool is almost completely the same I am forced into taking the bolts power no matter what. Why? Just because it is my secondary? Similar issues pop up between like brutes, tankers, and scrapper with melee also. I am just saying  let me be able to have a character that ultimately I have no power that was forced into my build I didn't want to have to take that cost me something I would rather have. At least with primary and secondary pools there are no qualifiers like with power pools or epics that require a prerequisite power choice. So why impose one at level 1 in the secondary pool. 

[Haijinx]

Its been mentioned this is impossible because of how the game was built.

 

So not a bad suggestion, just not one that can be done

[MetaVileTerror]

Stalker Hide.  It's kind of central to the Archetype.  While it's possible to turn the toggle off and play without it, I can scarcely imagine what skipping it might do to a new player.

[boggo2300]

29 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Stalker Hide.  It's kind of central to the Archetype.  While it's possible to turn the toggle off and play without it, I can scarcely imagine what skipping it might do to a new player.

they would quickly become a gibbering puddle of PURE INSANITY!

[Call Me Awesome]

1 hour ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Stalker Hide.  It's kind of central to the Archetype.  While it's possible to turn the toggle off and play without it, I can scarcely imagine what skipping it might do to a new player.

Make it an inherent power of the AT, unless I'm mistaken (I haven't compared the various secondaries) isn't the Hide power identical across all Stalker secondaries?  Then just put back the power that it replaced from the Scrapper or Tanker version of the secondary.

 

I realize this doesn't solve the issue of being forced into the secondary T1 power though.  Depending on how hard coded everything is it really might be way more trouble than it's worth.

[MetaVileTerror]

Hide can be Slotted and Enhanced.  None of the other Archetype Inherents can, to my knowledge.

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Hide can be Slotted and Enhanced.  None of the other Archetype Inherents can, to my knowledge.

Its a great place for defense globals

[Razor Cure]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Its been mentioned this is impossible because of how the game was built.

Taking that with a grain of salt. The MM pet brawling was also apparently impossible and simply could not be done EVER..and yet someone (clearly a super genius!) worked it out.

[boggo2300]

14 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Taking that with a grain of salt. The MM pet brawling was also apparently impossible and simply could not be done EVER..and yet someone (clearly a super genius!) worked it out.

no

[Razor Cure]

6 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

no

Great reasoning behind that response. Again, if they can fix MM pets, which was flat out stated as game breaking and impossible..why should this be? Maybe it would take ages to work through the code and stuff, but impossible?

[boggo2300]

Just now, Razor Cure said:

Great reasoning behind that response. Again, if they can fix MM pets, which was flat out stated as game breaking and impossible..why should this be? Maybe it would take ages to work through the code and stuff, but impossible?

who flat out stated it was game breaking and impossible?

[QuiJon]

21 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Taking that with a grain of salt. The MM pet brawling was also apparently impossible and simply could not be done EVER..and yet someone (clearly a super genius!) worked it out.

Notonly that but on other servers they have changed the power sets and the order powers can be taken so at like level 2 a controller can take his pets etc. So I feel like it would have to be possible even if you just had to change the level the power is available at. And as far as stalker Hide goes, just because you don't HAVE to take it at level 1 doesn't mean you can never take it. What if you decided you wanted that second choice first when playing at lower levels cause it provided resistances or def or something more useful then HIde prior to having your Assassin strike or placate power. 

[QuiJon]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Its a great place for defense globals

I don't see why Hide would change at all. Just because I might not want it at level 1 doesn't mean I might not when I get my A Strike power or placate going. But maybe at level 1 I might get more mileage out of having a resistance or defense toggle first. 

 

[Razor Cure]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

who flat out stated it was game breaking and impossible?

Go check out the many many threads about MM pets, and you will see a lot of people saying it was impossible. Most were referencing comments from the Live Dev team, and Castle I think, who TRIED to fix them, and it flat out broke other stuff. Like a lot.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Razor Cure said:

Go check out the many many threads about MM pets, and you will see a lot of people saying it was impossible. Most were referencing comments from the Live Dev team, and Castle I think, who TRIED to fix them, and it flat out broke other stuff. Like a lot.

What was said to be impossible was removing Brawl from the pets (not that removing it was impossible, but that it would break all sorts of other things) and guess what,  they didn't remove brawl from the pets.  the same people who fixed ranged pets (though it's too early to say that, it's still under test) are saying this can't be done...

[Haijinx]

Changing power order is possible, no one said it wasn't.

 

Changing the secondary pick to 1 or 2 was stated as not an option when the tanker changes started happening on test.  

 

In that example the T1 and T2 of tanker secondaries were flipped as one of the proposed changes, one of the reasons they did it that way was because they could not do the other 

[Razor Cure]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

the same people who fixed ranged pets (though it's too early to say that, it's still under test) are saying this can't be done...

They are? Cause I dont see any posts from teh powers dev team in this thread. And fine, so they didnt remove brawl, but they STILL fixed (according to tewst patch notes, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt) it, somehow. So..why cant there ever ever EVER be some way to fix this?

[Razor Cure]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Changing the secondary pick to 1 or 2 was stated as not an option when the tanker changes started happening on test.  

Not an option, or actually impossible?

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Razor Cure said:

Not an option, or actually impossible?

Not an option the devs could use 

 

So impossible enough

[boggo2300]

Just now, Razor Cure said:

They are? Cause I dont see any posts from teh powers dev team in this thread. And fine, so they didnt remove brawl, but they STILL fixed (according to tewst patch notes, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt) it, somehow. So..why cant there ever ever EVER be some way to fix this?

Its software engineering anything at all can be done, but it is ALWAYS a case of effort required versus benefit, and there are TWO developers working here, part time, volunteering, and they have said, this would require a major rewrite of a large chunk of the game because it is hard coded to take secondary slot 1

 

and no, they haven't commented here, but they did (both of them) in the Tanker changes dev threads where they were working on changing the starting slots as part of the tank rebalance

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

13 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

Make it an inherent power of the AT, unless I'm mistaken (I haven't compared the various secondaries) isn't the Hide power identical across all Stalker secondaries?  Then just put back the power that it replaced from the Scrapper or Tanker version of the secondary.

 

I realize this doesn't solve the issue of being forced into the secondary T1 power though.  Depending on how hard coded everything is it really might be way more trouble than it's worth.

So straight power creep for stalkers then? Talk about not seeing the bigger picture.

 

But Ill give another one. Blasters and their defiance. IT effects the first 2 powers in their prime and the first power in their 2ndary. While some ignore these powers, the skillful blaster knows how power the attacks that can be used even when effected by every kind of CC are in a heated fight.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

this is a great idea +1 for more options

[srmalloy]

12 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Its software engineering anything at all can be done, but it is ALWAYS a case of effort required versus benefit, and there are TWO developers working here, part time, volunteering, and they have said, this would require a major rewrite of a large chunk of the game because it is hard coded to take secondary slot 1

It would probably be annoying to do, and create some confusion in the process until people got used to it, but ultimately, there is a simple, and brute-force, solution to the problem that shouldn't require major code changes. Double the number of secondary power sets -- the 'standard' powerset as it is now, and an 'inverted' powerset with the tier 1 and tier 2 powers swapped. When you're creating a character, if you'd rather have the original tier 2 power as your first choice for your secondary, you pick the 'swapped' version.

[Roderick]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

It would probably be annoying to do, and create some confusion in the process until people got used to it, but ultimately, there is a simple, and brute-force, solution to the problem that shouldn't require major code changes. Double the number of secondary power sets -- the 'standard' powerset as it is now, and an 'inverted' powerset with the tier 1 and tier 2 powers swapped. When you're creating a character, if you'd rather have the original tier 2 power as your first choice for your secondary, you pick the 'swapped' version.

And when they get around to doing it properly, and it's time to remove the duplicates, what happens to all the corrupted characters that don't have a secondary any more?

 

No, "Just edit them so they have the new secondary" isn't a good answer. That's a good way to break things even worse.

[Vanden]

14 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Great reasoning behind that response. Again, if they can fix MM pets, which was flat out stated as game breaking and impossible..why should this be? Maybe it would take ages to work through the code and stuff, but impossible?

No one who actually looked into a solution and understood how it might be implemented actually said it was impossible, only very difficult. They only people who were saying it was impossible were putting words into their mouths.