Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[Auroxis]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

No, let’s not ignore that, because that does not help your case, given all the Other tools Time has and FF does not.

Maybe that should be addressed then instead of making most time players respec? Why not just nerf its -res numbers for instance?

 

And FF is due for a buff.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Auroxis

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, nzer said:

Or we could look at +4s, which is what people actually run. Or we could look at +4 incarnates, which is the closest this game comes to actual difficulty, and where FF's def is twice as effective as Time's. But both of those are bad for the argument you're making, so sure, +3s are fine. And let's certainly ignore that in a real team either set will likely put everyone well above 80% def to everything.

Yes everyone runs +4. are they actually +4? Not in any content that has a level shift. They are +3 for combat modifiers. Hence why I said +3 which is what I'd harbour a guess 90% + of lvl 50 content is comprised of. 

 

ya incarnate +4s give time opportunity to use the "radiation" side of its abilities that were listed before and would hold a team up better than just a ff if for some reason everyone was  stripped of their own abilities. 

 

Oh well. 

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

Maybe that should be addressed then instead of making most time players respec? Why not just nerf its -res numbers for instance?

 

And FF is due for a buff.

You want to nerf ALL Time characters so those with Power Boost can keep this one unnecessary thing? 
 

and people are arguing defense buffs don’t even matter at the endgame and only damage matters...

Edited March 10, 2020 by Wavicle

[Auroxis]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

You want to nerf ALL Time characters so those with Power Boost can keep this one unnecessary thing? 

Unnecessary? Weren't people calling this an OP must-nerf power?

 

And yes, I'd rather do something like lowering Slowed Response down to -20%, making it still a good power pick but less competitive with debuff sets.

 

Better that than literally nullifying a power pick on many builds, making people respec, and breaking a cottage rule in the process.

 

[Wavicle]

17 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Unnecessary? Weren't people calling this an OP must-nerf power?

 

And yes, I'd rather do something like lowering Slowed Response down to -20%, making it still a good power pick but less competitive with debuff sets.

 

Better that than literally nullifying a power pick on many builds, making people respec, and breaking a cottage rule in the process.

 

It can be both op and unnecessary, they are not in conflict.

 

it doesn’t nullify a power, time still benefits from PB in several ways, and people can respec if they want but they don’t have to.

 

how does it break the cottage rule?

[Auroxis]

22 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

it doesn’t nullify a power, time still benefits from PB in several ways, and people can respec if they want but they don’t have to.

Power Boost's benefits to Time outside of Farsight are minimal. A better heal and ToHit debuff, and a longer hold. The point remains that the vast majority of people who took Power Boost did it for its interaction that you're advocating to remove.

 

22 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

how does it break the cottage rule?

One day Power Boost is fulfilling its purpose of making Farsight stronger, and the next day it doesn't.

[Wavicle]

26 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Power Boost's benefits to Time outside of Farsight are minimal. A better heal and ToHit debuff, and a longer hold. The point remains that the vast majority of people who took Power Boost did it for its interaction that you're advocating to remove.

 

One day Power Boost is fulfilling its purpose of making Farsight stronger, and the next day it doesn't.

PB improves -Speed and -Defense as well and +End.  That's 5 powers OTHER than Farsight that benefit.  6 including. Far more than many sets.

Making PB not effect one part of one power does not break the cottage rule, sorry.  If you really think so then you may not understand the cottage rule.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

For example, PB used to buff Knockback.

Removing that did not break the cottage rule, and that effected MANY more powers than this.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Wavicle

[Auroxis]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

PB improves -Speed and -Defense as well and +End.  That's 5 powers OTHER than Farsight that benefit.  6 including. Far more than many sets.

Oh those don't really matter and not worth mentioning. And it doesn't boost +End, Chrono Shift's +End is not affected by buffs or enhancements.

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Making PB not effect one part of one power does not break the cottage rule, sorry.  If you really think so then you may not understand the cottage rule.

The cottage rule is pretty basic. A power shouldn't have its main functionality removed in favor of another, with the agreed-upon caveat that if the removed functionality is sufficiently replaced with something similar that it's passable.

 

Power Boost's main functionality to the playerbase on Time is buffing Farsight. That's its primary and by far the most popular use-case scenario.

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Oh those don't really matter and not worth mentioning. And it doesn't boost +End, Chrono Shift's +End is not affected by buffs or enhancements.

The cottage rule is pretty basic. A power shouldn't have its main functionality removed in favor of another, with the agreed-upon caveat that if the removed functionality is sufficiently replaced with something similar that it's passable.

 

Power Boost's main functionality to the playerbase on Time is buffing Farsight. That's its primary and by far the most popular use-case scenario.

They could make it so PB doesn't effect Farsight AT ALL, Def or Tohit, and it wouldn't break the cottage rule, because PB has not been changed in the slightest.

They could flag EVERY POWER in Time to not allow Power Boost to effect it and it still wouldn't break the cottage rule, because the power in question, Power Boost, still works Exactly the Same.

The cottage rule applies to the power being changed. Would the change to Farsight break the cottage rule for Farsight? No, absolutely not.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

I didn't know that about the End on Chrono, that's lame.

[Auroxis]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

They could make it so PB doesn't effect Farsight AT ALL, Def or Tohit, and it wouldn't break the cottage rule, because PB has not been changed in the slightest.

They could flag EVERY POWER in Time to not allow Power Boost to effect it and it still wouldn't break the cottage rule, because the power in question, Power Boost, still works Exactly the Same.

The cottage rule applies to the power being changed. Would the change to Farsight break the cottage rule for Farsight? No, absolutely not.

You're making the classic mistake of ignoring use cases, when the very origin of the cottage rule itself comes from a use case (replacing something with a dropping a cottage on a target).

[Wavicle]

I think you're arguing a radical reinterpretation of the cottage rule.  Both powers still function Exactly as they always have.  Only the interaction of the two is being changed. The Time player has many other powers that still benefit, including any other Def buffs, such as Scorpion Shield or Maneuvers.

Really this would be a textbook example of Not breaking the cottage rule.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Wavicle

[Auroxis]

Just now, Wavicle said:

I think you're arguing a radical reinterpretation of the cottage rule.  Both powers still function Exactly as they always have.  Only the interaction of the two is being changed. The Time player has many other powers that still benefit, including any other Def buffs, such as Scorpion Shield or Maneuvers.

There's nothing radical about it. It's radical to think removing the most popular functionality of a power is somehow an acceptable nerf when so many other options exist.

 

And who the hell uses Scorpion Shield with Time?

[Wavicle]

To put it in specific terms, PB still does everything it always did, except not to That particular power.

Farsight does everything it always did, except get buffed by PB.

The primary function of PB is to buff lots of powers, not Farsight specifically, and the primary function of Farsight is to buff your team, not to be buffed by PB. The cottage rule is intact.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Auroxis said:

And who the hell uses Scorpion Shield with Time?

Good point.

Well, maybe someone after PB no longer buffs Farsight.

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

the most popular functionality of a power

Again, this is wrong.  The most popular functionality of Farsight is buffing you and your team, not being itself improved by PB.

The most popular functionality of PB would probably be to a slightly more popular set maybe? I don't know, do you suppose the largest single use for PB across ALL toons that take it is on Time toons with Farsight? I suppose it could be.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Wavicle

[MunkiLord]

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Again, this is wrong.  The most popular functionality of Farsight is buffing you and your team, not being itself improved by PB.

The most popular functionality of PB would probably be to a slightly more popular set maybe? I don't know, do you suppose the largest single use for PB across ALL toons that take it is on Time toons with Farsight? I suppose it could be.

That is the reason I created a Time Defender. Now I'm not a fan of playing defenders, so this character was eventually stripped of IOs and retired so I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I do know my buddy and I created a Time Defender duo because of this interaction. I don't know how often that was the reason for other people, just that the two of us did it for that reason.

Edited March 10, 2020 by MunkiLord
for clarity

[Frosticus]

I think we should lower enemy base tohit chance because defense doesn't matter because everyone has it, but don't lower the defense of farsight because defense doesn't matter. 

 

 

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:

That is the reason I created a Time Defender. Now I'm not a fan of playing defenders, so this character was eventually stripped of IOs and retired so I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I do know my buddy and I created a Time Defender duo because of this interaction. I don't know how often that was the reason for other people, just that the two of us did it for that reason.

 

I made a time defender just because I wanted to play a set I didnt play on live. Then I stumbled upon the synergy that came with the pairing of power build up (then later power boost) and was inspired to try all new things with my defender that didnt seem possible to traditionalists, such as dedicating the saved resources to procs to make (what I thought was) the first proc monster. Defending a team while tanking, my 2 favorite things.

 

But soon, my only true main character will be nerfed of procs and nerfed of Farsight. Honestly, it feels sad since it's my main. Not sure if I'll feel inspired like that again while making other characters, and I probably will just cut back on playing altogether. Too much time spent (mostly testing) on the game only to have things taken away is disappointing. Perhaps it's my fault, I've openly advertised the power of Farsight with PB (and Clarion), and I've openly advertised procs. Oh well. C'est la vie

 

[MunkiLord]

13 minutes ago, Bopper said:

 

I made a time defender just because I wanted to play a set I didnt play on live. Then I stumbled upon the synergy that came with the pairing of power build up (then later power boost) and was inspired to try all new things with my defender that didnt seem possible to traditionalists, such as dedicating the saved resources to procs to make (what I thought was) the first proc monster. Defending a team while tanking, my 2 favorite things.

 

But soon, my only true main character will be nerfed of procs and nerfed of Farsight. Honestly, it feels sad since it's my main. Not sure if I'll feel inspired like that again while making other characters, and I probably will just cut back on playing altogether. Too much time spent (mostly testing) on the game only to have things taken away is disappointing. Perhaps it's my fault, I've openly advertised the power of Farsight with PB (and Clarion), and I've openly advertised procs. Oh well. C'est la vie

 

You're where I got the Time Defender idea from, either by commenting directly in the thread I started many moons ago, or somebody pointing me to one of your threads. And while I didn't stick with that particular character, it was a tremendous influence in how I've slotted my Dark/Earth Dominator, which has become my favorite character here in HC. Seismic Smash does stupid damage with procs. So I thank you for that!

 

So I totally understand the disappointment, I would also be bummed if something similar were to happen to my main. Hell, I've cut way back on playing Division 2 for similar balance/nerf changes despite buying the expansion two weeks ago.

 

I don't know how many people such a change for Time will impact, but those that it does, it will be incredibly significant. When leveling my Time/Sonic I took a break from PL'ing it to join a few random teams. One team I joined kept getting their ass kicked by Silver Mantis, somewhere in the high 30s I think was the level range. I joined, and we were able to take her down. Not specifically because of me as a player, but because that particular character could provide enough defense to get them through her defense debuffs. Granted this team was playing a little above their head, but I think that's probably more common than a lot of us that play end game builds realize. They were fucking pumped that we defeated her. I was too, she's basically my arch nemesis as she likes to kick my ass when I'm soloing AVs, then mock me like I'm trash. But this particular team had no idea why she kept beating them and I'm not sure they knew exactly why the Time defender made the encounter easy. That particular powerset turned a frustrating experience into a good one for them. And I believe such moments have a massive amount of value, even if it's not properly balanced.

Edited March 10, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Auroxis]

9 minutes ago, Bopper said:

 

I made a time defender just because I wanted to play a set I didnt play on live. Then I stumbled upon the synergy that came with the pairing of power build up (then later power boost) and was inspired to try all new things with my defender that didnt seem possible to traditionalists, such as dedicating the saved resources to procs to make (what I thought was) the first proc monster. Defending a team while tanking, my 2 favorite things.

 

But soon, my only true main character will be nerfed of procs and nerfed of Farsight. Honestly, it feels sad since it's my main. Not sure if I'll feel inspired like that again while making other characters, and I probably will just cut back on playing altogether. Too much time spent (mostly testing) on the game only to have things taken away is disappointing. Perhaps it's my fault, I've openly advertised the power of Farsight with PB (and Clarion), and I've openly advertised procs. Oh well. C'est la vie

 

The Power Boost +Def interaction was my favorite feature for the majority of my time spent both on Live and on Homecoming. My Empath was utilizing PBU/PB for Vengeance and Fortitude for years, and naturally when Homecoming came out I used that interaction with a Time Corruptor (with Clarion).

 

If Farsight gets its interaction removed, I could probably manage by using Barrier instead of Clarion and shifting some slots around since I don't use PB on my Corr. If Fortitude(my avatar for almost a decade) gets its interaction removed I'd probably quit HC, so if any devs are listening and want to get rid of me that's the way to do it.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Auroxis said:

The Power Boost +Def interaction was my favorite feature for the majority of my time spent both on Live and on Homecoming. My Empath was utilizing PBU/PB for Vengeance and Fortitude for years, and naturally when Homecoming came out I used that interaction with a Time Corruptor (with Clarion).

 

If Farsight gets its interaction removed, I could probably manage by using Barrier instead of Clarion and shifting some slots around since I don't use PB on my Corr. If Fortitude(my avatar for almost a decade) gets its interaction removed I'd probably quit HC, so if any devs are listening and want to get rid of me that's the way to do it.

Truthfully time is good without power boost - I have a grav time that I didnt even know about this interaction before reading this thread - so I rarely used power boost outside of using it like a damage build up.

 

But just because its good without it doesnt mean it needs it removed, because its a naturally good synergy that doesnt affect anything but the user really late game because the team usually doesnt need it anyway..

Edited March 10, 2020 by Infinitum

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

If Fortitude(my avatar for almost a decade) gets its interaction removed I'd probably quit HC, so if any devs are listening and want to get rid of me that's the way to do it.

I understand that feeling. The greatest feeling coming back to this game was the nostalgia and love for the characters we created during live. Those were our babies, and we loved/missed them. I tend to be emotionally inept, but hearing CoH returned, I was literally excited for the first time in years. I'm not using literally incorrectly, btw. It's a feeling I rarely genuinely have.

 

Personally, I have the opposite of alt-itis. I came back to the game in May and the first thing I did was recreate my main from Live (my Avatar). It was my Rad Sonic AV killer. But I found out (from you actually, when we were discussing optimal DPS chains for a Rad-Sonic) that procs no longer worked with a flat %, and that led me down the path of learning everything I can about Procs to better figure out how to make a better character.

 

In the mean time, I shelved my original main (from Live) as it felt outdated, and tried out a Time Cop because I never played Dual Pistols or Time. And that was it for me. That is my only character I put influence and time into, until recently when I created a Stone/SS Proc Tank (but that was more for proof of concept than labor of love).

 

So yes, if both nerfs happen, and my main gets neutered, it will be a gut punch. I know I could adapt, but the entire time it will simply feel like hanging onto something that is gone. But I dont blame the devs for wanting to balance the game, it simply will be my natural emotional reaction to witnessing all the time, theory crafting, testing, playing, auctuoneering, farming, just to get my main to the point I want them. Then poof. Gone.

[Frosticus]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

 

So yes, if both nerfs happen, and my main gets neutered, it will be a gut punch. I know I could adapt, but the entire time it will simply feel like hanging onto something that is gone. But I dont blame the devs for wanting to balance the game, it simply will be my natural emotional reaction to witnessing all the time, theory crafting, testing, playing, auctuoneering, farming, just to get my main to the point I want them. Then poof. Gone.

This is indeed a hard pill to swallow.

I'm not sure what proc changes are coming other than the nebulous "nerf" that people cite, I can relate to spending many hrs testing and tweaking around them. It will be a sad day. But will also bring new opportunity.

 

I actually dont really care about farsight, other than it is a pretty big outlier. If other buff/debuff could all do similar it would be great. Case in point PB does nothing for traps despite farsight and ff-gen filling much the same role. Same with storm and hurricane. I love  the cane, PB only gives me 10 seconds of greatness, but gives time 120 seconds. To me that isnt synergy, it is just poor design. 

 

Maybe some sort of diminished returns are warranted on buffs as they are already in place on debuffs. That way the scrapper that is already ultra hardy doesnt get further buffed into the stratosphere. But the dominator that focused on being a good mezzer rather than capping defenses would gain a lot of the buff. Then again I hate DR in pvp, so it would have to be different than that.