Galaxy Brain Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 53 minutes ago, Haijinx said: Can one of the more mathematically gifted run the DPA attack chain numbers for ST WM EM as is EM with ET reverted to old animation That might help here a lot. WM is one of the best ST sets, so thats probably a great baseline as mentioned above. What is the animation time for the old ET? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandX Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 42 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said: What is the animation time for the old ET? Same as Frozen Touch. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siolfir Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, BrandX said: 12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said: What is the animation time for the old ET? Same as Frozen Touch. If anyone wants to do the math on chains and comparisons, here's a little chart showing Energy Melee, War Mace, and (for giggles) Stone Melee. I threw in Assassin's Strike for reference: Powerset Power Scale Activation Time True Activation Recharge AoE DS/A Reference Assassin's Strike (focus critical) 5 1 1.188 15 4.209 Energy Melee Energy Transfer (old) 4.56 1 1.188 20 3.838 Reference Assassin's Strike (slow) 7 3 3.168 15 2.210 Reference Assassin's Strike (fast, no critical) 2.5 1 1.188 15 2.104 Stone Melee Seismic Smash 3.56 1.5 1.716 20 2.075 War Mace Clobber 2.92 1.23 1.452 16 2.011 Energy Melee Energy Transfer 4.56 2.67 2.904 20 1.570 Stone Melee Heavy Mallet 2.28 1.63 1.848 12 1.234 Energy Melee Total Focus 3.56 3.3 3.432 20 1.037 War Mace Jawbreaker 1.96 1.83 1.980 10 0.990 Energy Melee Bone Smasher 1.64 1.5 1.716 8 0.956 War Mace Pulverize 1.64 1.5 1.716 8 0.956 Energy Melee Energy Punch 1 0.83 1.056 4 0.947 Stone Melee Stone Fist 1 0.83 1.056 4 0.947 War Mace Shatter 2.28 2.33 2.508 12 8', 45° 0.909 Stone Melee Stone Mallet 1.64 1.61 1.848 8 0.887 Energy Melee Barrage 1.32 1.33 1.584 6 0.833 War Mace Crowd Control 1.61 2 2.244 12 8', 180° 0.717 War Mace Bash 1 1.33 1.584 4 0.631 Stone Melee Hurl Boulder 1.64 2.5 2.64 8 0.621 War Mace Whirling Mace 1.12 2.67 2.904 14 8' 0.386 Energy Melee Whirling Hands 1 2.5 2.640 14 8' 0.379 Stone Melee Tremor 1 3.3 3.432 14 15' 0.291 Energy Melee Stun 0.25 1.8 1.980 20 0.126 Edited January 16, 2020 by siolfir table formatting mangled on save :( 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troo Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Oooo that's nice of you. "Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown (Wise words Unknown!) Si vis pacem, para bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxy Brain Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Oh cool! So, eyeballing it we have... every single stalker being able to toss out better than ET performance on every set? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siolfir Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said: Oh cool! So, eyeballing it we have... every single stalker being able to toss out better than ET performance on every set? Yeah, I mentioned that earlier in the thread when I said it wouldn't be as broken as everyone was led to believe. To be fair, it's not every Stalker, Some of the slower "fast" AS animations are 1.67 seconds instead of 1 second, and Kinetic Melee's fast AS is 0.67 seconds. The "fast" time is 2 seconds shorter than the long animation time. Edited January 16, 2020 by siolfir corrected numbers after actually checking in game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPax Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) On 1/14/2020 at 3:04 PM, Troo said: Just change the set back and we'll see what's 'wrong with' it. For clarity, your statement "There's lots wrong with energy melee. Changing this one thing doesn't fix that." is incorrect in too many ways. So much so I feel I've been trolled. It has middling single target attack chains, one of the worst pbaoe's out of the melee sets, has unreliable stun on it's mainstay rotations compared to other sets and has the bad variant of total focus. Statistically. Now, I don't remember what ET was like before, so I can't speak for that. But the rest of the set is middle of the road, or complete garbage. Stun vs Clobber jumps to mind. Granted, you might have a lot of fun with the set, more power to you. Doesn't change that it's very middle of the road compared to other sets, and not even good at single target damage on damage centric classes like scrappers and stalkers, as it's big hitter can't crit. You feel like you've been trolled? I feel like I have been too. I do encourage the discussion though. Edited January 17, 2020 by JPax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troo Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, JPax said: I don't remember what ET was like before I do see what you are writing. Honestly, two items do discount your view. One is the quote above, the other is that I don't think scrappers don't get energy melee. The crits you mention could be a reason it's not a scrapper power set. Now folks who did play it, and do remember, the majority of them are clearly saying Just Change It Back. Look at the poll at the top of the thread (as limited as it may be). Many who are asking to change it back are not asking to make it the best set. It is understood that it is not likely to eclipse the current AoE machines but it will be playable, fun and effective in it's own way. Folks will start to play it more simply by changing it back. I for one do not want to see it homogenized with the other power sets. If it gets changed back and Stun gets swapped for something, okay fine. I do not feel that is necessary. There are gonna be powers that are skipped no matter what. Few will fight for the power Stun. 1 "Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown (Wise words Unknown!) Si vis pacem, para bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxy Brain Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 9 hours ago, Troo said: There are gonna be powers that are skipped no matter what. TBF, I feel that there shouldn't be powers that are "lol trash, auto skip". Skipping should be a tactical choice not a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandX Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Well, you know, I don't want any of the powers in Energy Melee to lose their stun ability, but I wouldn't mind Bone Smasher gaining a Knockdown to go with the stun 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troo Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said: BF, I feel that there shouldn't be powers that are "lol trash, auto skip". Skipping should be a tactical choice not a given. That is fair. I'm just not likely to take whatever is done with that spot regardless. It would have to be pretty epic to change my mind and I don't see room for something epic. 12 minutes ago, BrandX said: Well, you know, I don't want any of the powers in Energy Melee to lose their stun ability, but I wouldn't mind Bone Smasher gaining a Knockdown to go with the stun 🙂 Agreed the disorient effect stun is part of what made Energy Melee fun and effective. FYI all attacks for brutes, tanks and stalkers have disorient built in (assassin strike being the exception?). Edited January 17, 2020 by Troo "Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown (Wise words Unknown!) Si vis pacem, para bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siolfir Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Troo said: FYI all attacks for brutes, tanks and stalkers have disorient built in (assassin strike being the exception?). Assassin's Strike is the exception and does not have a stun built in, although Stalker Energy Punch (10% mag 2), Bone Smasher (30% mag 3), and Energy Transfer (50% mag 3) have a lower chance to stun than the Brute or Tanker versions (30%, 60%, and 60% respectively). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiyajinzoningen Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 @siolfir Thanks so much for the chart it really helps when we have hard numbers to use. That being said i think Martial arts could benefit from the combo system & Stone melee could benefit from the momentum system Its easy to criticize a suggestion but can you suggest an alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanden Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 I'm on record that I don't want Energy Transfer's animation to go back to what it was. I like the current animation, and I'd rather find a way to buff the set while preserving it. That said, if you want to experience the old ET playstyle, I'd highly encourage you to play a Stalker. The fast Assassin's Strike animations out of Hide feel exactly like old ET did, and they even do as much damage with Assassin's Focus crits. A Cheat Sheet for efficient Endurance Recovery slotting Invention Set Designer Tool Spreadsheet with every Ancillary Power Pool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siolfir Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Vanden said: I'm on record that I don't want Energy Transfer's animation to go back to what it was. I like the current animation, and I'd rather find a way to buff the set while preserving it. That said, if you want to experience the old ET playstyle, I'd highly encourage you to play a Stalker. The fast Assassin's Strike animations out of Hide feel exactly like old ET did, and they even do as much damage with Assassin's Focus crits. Where's my Stalker with Taunt and damage auras? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiyajinzoningen Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Vanden said: I'm on record that I don't want Energy Transfer's animation to go back to what it was. I like the current animation, and I'd rather find a way to buff the set while preserving it. That said, if you want to experience the old ET playstyle, I'd highly encourage you to play a Stalker. The fast Assassin's Strike animations out of Hide feel exactly like old ET did, and they even do as much damage with Assassin's Focus crits. i dont mind the animation its the cast time thats the issue for most of us 1 Its easy to criticize a suggestion but can you suggest an alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanden Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, siolfir said: Where's my Stalker with Taunt and damage auras? Sounds like you want great AoE damage AND single-target damage AND crowd control, which would be a bit of a tanker-mage and a balance no bueno. 1 A Cheat Sheet for efficient Endurance Recovery slotting Invention Set Designer Tool Spreadsheet with every Ancillary Power Pool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siolfir Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Vanden said: Sounds like you want great AoE damage AND single-target damage AND crowd control, which would be a bit of a tanker-mage and a balance no bueno. A damage aura with EM would provide some AoE damage. If it's available with EM it would be available for every other set, all of which would have more AoE damage and several of which currently provide better single target damage. Also, what are Blasters currently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leogunner Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, siolfir said: Where's my Stalker with Taunt and damage auras? Damage auras on a burst damage set is overrated. You can have a Stalker with taunt. I have one. Not having a damage aura (when not every Brute/Tanker set gets one) seems rather arbitrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siolfir Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Leogunner said: Damage auras on a burst damage set is overrated. You can have a Stalker with taunt. I have one. Not having a damage aura (when not every Brute/Tanker set gets one) seems rather arbitrary. Taunt aura and/or damage aura, thus the use of the plural auras. You know, something you don't have to waste animation time on. Of the two, I actually prefer the Taunt aura, so I don't have to go chasing everything with a melee AT while it's trying to run away. It just so happens that on 2 out of 3 ATs that have Energy Melee, any damage aura is also a Taunt aura, so I don't have to go running after things. Contrary to popular belief, I actually know what I want. Also contrary to popular belief, it's not running around like the first mission in the Mender Ramiel arc where nothing can touch you and everything is dead within seconds. And based on the poll results, I'd say that I'm not alone in my desire to see the fast Energy Transfer back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leogunner Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 43 minutes ago, siolfir said: Taunt aura and/or damage aura, thus the use of the plural auras. You're familiar with "/". The way English works is punctuation can change the meaning of a sentence. "Where's my Stalker with Taunt and damage auras?" means both my interpretation and yours. If I were to re-write your sentence to be clearer, I'd have typed "Where's my Stalker with taunt/damage auras?" as this is a common short-hand that either word/phrase with the "/" between them can be substituted in the sentence to convey the context. That or "Where's my Stalker taunt aura and damage aura?" Anyway, isn't there a taunt aura incarnate ability? Use that. 49 minutes ago, siolfir said: And based on the poll results, I'd say that I'm not alone in my desire to see the fast Energy Transfer back. I don't understand why people feel polls mean anything. At best, it means you can see the opinions of the few people who bothered to both read the post and felt like contributing to a useless gesture. At best, polls are forum games and should be treated as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxy Brain Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Vanden said: Sounds like you want great AoE damage AND single-target damage AND crowd control, which would be a bit of a tanker-mage and a balance no bueno. Then play TW! 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haijinx Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 10 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said: TBF, I feel that there shouldn't be powers that are "lol trash, auto skip". Skipping should be a tactical choice not a given. You'd need damage in Stun then. Make it like Cobra Strike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haijinx Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said: Then play TW! 😄 Or WM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haijinx Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 hours ago, siolfir said: Also, what are Blasters currently? The ones with the good version of Energy Melee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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