Make Energy Melee great again

[Galaxy Brain]

53 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Can one of the more mathematically gifted run the DPA attack chain numbers for ST 

 

WM 

EM as is

EM with ET reverted to old animation

 

That might help here a lot.

 

WM is one of the best ST sets, so thats probably a great baseline as mentioned above. 

 

What is the animation time for the old ET?

[BrandX]

42 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What is the animation time for the old ET?

 

Same as Frozen Touch.

[siolfir]

 

12 hours ago, BrandX said:

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What is the animation time for the old ET?

 

Same as Frozen Touch.

If anyone wants to do the math on chains and comparisons, here's a little chart showing Energy Melee, War Mace, and (for giggles) Stone Melee. I threw in Assassin's Strike for reference:

Powerset	Power	Scale	Activation Time	True Activation	Recharge	AoE	DS/A
Reference	Assassin's Strike (focus critical)	5	1	1.188	15		4.209
Energy Melee	Energy Transfer (old)	4.56	1	1.188	20		3.838
Reference	Assassin's Strike (slow)	7	3	3.168	15		2.210
Reference	Assassin's Strike (fast, no critical)	2.5	1	1.188	15		2.104
Stone Melee	Seismic Smash	3.56	1.5	1.716	20		2.075
War Mace	Clobber	2.92	1.23	1.452	16		2.011
Energy Melee	Energy Transfer	4.56	2.67	2.904	20		1.570
Stone Melee	Heavy Mallet	2.28	1.63	1.848	12		1.234
Energy Melee	Total Focus	3.56	3.3	3.432	20		1.037
War Mace	Jawbreaker	1.96	1.83	1.980	10		0.990
Energy Melee	Bone Smasher	1.64	1.5	1.716	8		0.956
War Mace	Pulverize	1.64	1.5	1.716	8		0.956
Energy Melee	Energy Punch	1	0.83	1.056	4		0.947
Stone Melee	Stone Fist	1	0.83	1.056	4		0.947
War Mace	Shatter	2.28	2.33	2.508	12	8', 45°	0.909
Stone Melee	Stone Mallet	1.64	1.61	1.848	8		0.887
Energy Melee	Barrage	1.32	1.33	1.584	6		0.833
War Mace	Crowd Control	1.61	2	2.244	12	8', 180°	0.717
War Mace	Bash	1	1.33	1.584	4		0.631
Stone Melee	Hurl Boulder	1.64	2.5	2.64	8		0.621
War Mace	Whirling Mace	1.12	2.67	2.904	14	8'	0.386
Energy Melee	Whirling Hands	1	2.5	2.640	14	8'	0.379
Stone Melee	Tremor	1	3.3	3.432	14	15'	0.291
Energy Melee	Stun	0.25	1.8	1.980	20		0.126

 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by siolfir
table formatting mangled on save :(

[Troo]

Oooo that's nice of you.

[Galaxy Brain]

Oh cool! So, eyeballing it we have... every single stalker being able to toss out better than ET performance on every set?

[siolfir]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Oh cool! So, eyeballing it we have... every single stalker being able to toss out better than ET performance on every set?

Yeah, I mentioned that earlier in the thread when I said it wouldn't be as broken as everyone was led to believe. To be fair, it's not every Stalker, Some of the slower "fast" AS animations are 1.67 seconds instead of 1 second, and Kinetic Melee's fast AS is 0.67 seconds. The "fast" time is 2 seconds shorter than the long animation time.

Edited January 16, 2020 by siolfir
corrected numbers after actually checking in game

[JPax]

On 1/14/2020 at 3:04 PM, Troo said:

Just change the set back and we'll see what's 'wrong with' it.

 

For clarity, your statement "There's lots wrong with energy melee. Changing this one thing doesn't fix that." is incorrect in too many ways. So much so I feel I've been trolled.

 

It has middling single target attack chains, one of the worst pbaoe's out of the melee sets, has unreliable stun on it's mainstay rotations compared to other sets and has the bad variant of total focus. Statistically. Now, I don't remember what ET was like before, so I can't speak for that. But the rest of the set is middle of the road, or complete garbage. Stun vs Clobber jumps to mind. Granted, you might have a lot of fun with the set, more power to you. Doesn't change that it's very middle of the road compared to other sets, and not even good at single target damage on damage centric classes like scrappers and stalkers, as it's big hitter can't crit. You feel like you've been trolled? I feel like I have been too. I do encourage the discussion though.

Edited January 17, 2020 by JPax

[Troo]

8 minutes ago, JPax said:

I don't remember what ET was like before

I do see what you are writing. Honestly, two items do discount your view. One is the quote above, the other is that I don't think scrappers don't get energy melee. The crits you mention could be a reason it's not a scrapper power set. 

 

Now folks who did play it, and do remember, the majority of them are clearly saying Just Change It Back. Look at the poll at the top of the thread (as limited as it may be). Many who are asking to change it back are not asking to make it the best set. It is understood that it is not likely to eclipse the current AoE machines but it will be playable, fun and effective in it's own way.

Folks will start to play it more simply by changing it back. 

 

I for one do not want to see it homogenized with the other power sets.

 

If it gets changed back and Stun gets swapped for something, okay fine. I do not feel that is necessary. There are gonna be powers that are skipped no matter what. Few will fight for the power Stun.

[Galaxy Brain]

9 hours ago, Troo said:

There are gonna be powers that are skipped no matter what.

TBF, I feel that there shouldn't be powers that are "lol trash, auto skip". Skipping should be a tactical choice not a given.

[BrandX]

Well, you know, I don't want any of the powers in Energy Melee to lose their stun ability, but I wouldn't mind Bone Smasher gaining a Knockdown to go with the stun 🙂

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

BF, I feel that there shouldn't be powers that are "lol trash, auto skip". Skipping should be a tactical choice not a given.

That is fair. I'm just not likely to take whatever is done with that spot regardless. It would have to be pretty epic to change my mind and I don't see room for something epic.

 

12 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Well, you know, I don't want any of the powers in Energy Melee to lose their stun ability, but I wouldn't mind Bone Smasher gaining a Knockdown to go with the stun 🙂

Agreed the disorient effect stun is part of what made Energy Melee fun and effective. FYI all attacks for brutes, tanks and stalkers have disorient built in (assassin strike being the exception?).

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Troo

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

FYI all attacks for brutes, tanks and stalkers have disorient built in (assassin strike being the exception?).

Assassin's Strike is the exception and does not have a stun built in, although Stalker Energy Punch (10% mag 2), Bone Smasher (30% mag 3), and Energy Transfer (50% mag 3) have a lower chance to stun than the Brute or Tanker versions (30%, 60%, and 60% respectively).

[Saiyajinzoningen]

@siolfir

 

Thanks so much for the chart it really helps when we have hard numbers to use. That being said i think

 

Martial arts could benefit from the combo system &

Stone melee could benefit from the momentum system

[Vanden]

I'm on record that I don't want Energy Transfer's animation to go back to what it was. I like the current animation, and I'd rather find a way to buff the set while preserving it.

 

That said, if you want to experience the old ET playstyle, I'd highly encourage you to play a Stalker. The fast Assassin's Strike animations out of Hide feel exactly like old ET did, and they even do as much damage with Assassin's Focus crits.

[siolfir]

4 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I'm on record that I don't want Energy Transfer's animation to go back to what it was. I like the current animation, and I'd rather find a way to buff the set while preserving it.

 

That said, if you want to experience the old ET playstyle, I'd highly encourage you to play a Stalker. The fast Assassin's Strike animations out of Hide feel exactly like old ET did, and they even do as much damage with Assassin's Focus crits.

Where's my Stalker with Taunt and damage auras?

[Saiyajinzoningen]

13 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I'm on record that I don't want Energy Transfer's animation to go back to what it was. I like the current animation, and I'd rather find a way to buff the set while preserving it.

 

That said, if you want to experience the old ET playstyle, I'd highly encourage you to play a Stalker. The fast Assassin's Strike animations out of Hide feel exactly like old ET did, and they even do as much damage with Assassin's Focus crits.

i dont mind the animation its the cast time thats the issue for most of us

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Where's my Stalker with Taunt and damage auras?

Sounds like you want great AoE damage AND single-target damage AND crowd control, which would be a bit of a tanker-mage and a balance no bueno.

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Sounds like you want great AoE damage AND single-target damage AND crowd control, which would be a bit of a tanker-mage and a balance no bueno.

A damage aura with EM would provide some AoE damage. If it's available with EM it would be available for every other set, all of which would have more AoE damage and several of which currently provide better single target damage.

 

Also, what are Blasters currently?

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Where's my Stalker with Taunt and damage auras?

Damage auras on a burst damage set is overrated.  You can have a Stalker with taunt.  I have one.  Not having a damage aura (when not every Brute/Tanker set gets one) seems rather arbitrary.

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Damage auras on a burst damage set is overrated.  You can have a Stalker with taunt.  I have one.  Not having a damage aura (when not every Brute/Tanker set gets one) seems rather arbitrary.

Taunt aura and/or damage aura, thus the use of the plural auras. You know, something you don't have to waste animation time on. Of the two, I actually prefer the Taunt aura, so I don't have to go chasing everything with a melee AT while it's trying to run away. It just so happens that on 2 out of 3 ATs that have Energy Melee, any damage aura is also a Taunt aura, so I don't have to go running after things.

 

Contrary to popular belief, I actually know what I want. Also contrary to popular belief, it's not running around like the first mission in the Mender Ramiel arc where nothing can touch you and everything is dead within seconds.

 

And based on the poll results, I'd say that I'm not alone in my desire to see the fast Energy Transfer back.

[Leogunner]

43 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Taunt aura and/or damage aura, thus the use of the plural auras.

You're familiar with "/".  The way English works is punctuation can change the meaning of a sentence.

 

"Where's my Stalker with Taunt and damage auras?" means both my interpretation and yours.  If I were to re-write your sentence to be clearer, I'd have typed "Where's my Stalker with taunt/damage auras?" as this is a common short-hand that either word/phrase with the "/" between them can be substituted in the sentence to convey the context.  That or "Where's my Stalker taunt aura and damage aura?"

 

Anyway, isn't there a taunt aura incarnate ability?  Use that.

 

49 minutes ago, siolfir said:

And based on the poll results, I'd say that I'm not alone in my desire to see the fast Energy Transfer back.

I don't understand why people feel polls mean anything.  At best, it means you can see the opinions of the few people who bothered to both read the post and felt like contributing to a useless gesture.  At best, polls are forum games and should be treated as such.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

Sounds like you want great AoE damage AND single-target damage AND crowd control, which would be a bit of a tanker-mage and a balance no bueno.

Then play TW! 😄

[Haijinx]

10 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

TBF, I feel that there shouldn't be powers that are "lol trash, auto skip". Skipping should be a tactical choice not a given.

You'd need damage in Stun then.

 

Make it like Cobra Strike

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Then play TW! 😄

Or WM

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

 

Also, what are Blasters currently?

The ones with the good version of Energy Melee