Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for January 6, 2020

[SwitchFade]

8 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

So admittedly I’m not 1000% certain on this, but I’m fairly sure that when they first allowed side swapping.... and as long as I can remember on live...you could hold the agro of say an AV that was being attacked by a tank and a brute on the brute if the brute used taunt and the tank did not.(even with toggles and punchvoke triggers) 

 

Am I just remembering this completely wrong?

 

I get that if they are taunting AND attacking then there’s just no hope of changing the agro, but I was really convinced that if a tank was just attacking without taunting then a taunting brute should pull agro.(by the old #s)

Situational. If you taunted and attacked first with auras on, then the tank would need to double your threat to steal aggro, in that moment. Like this,

 

You attack first, full steam, tank comes in, you keep aggro for the first 15-17 seconds. You then lose aggro. Why? Duration.

 

Other scenario, you are using full kit, tank is not, you can eclipsed tank threat so you get aggro.

 

So the point is, tanks modifiers and values will eclipse brute threat. You may grab that aggro initially, or you may hold it when the tank lets you, but full steam, not possible. Most tanks spamming attacks and aura is greater threat generation than brute.

 

Also, memory is a funny thing. Think, as a brute you're used to rushing in ahead of a tank, so you lay down taunt and threat attainment first. It takes time for the tank to pull that off you, but as a brute you killed them before that could happen. So, it's always been that tanks can't be readily aggro striped, you probably just got there first before and had the perception that tanks couldn't get aggro over you. They could, but you were just quicker. If I run with a brute, NOPE I'm in first.

 

Now, tanks are even better at aggro control.

 

Also, read the thread I posted for math to why.

Edited February 22, 2020 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

Just to be clear, even not taunting, a tank with auras and attacking is going to aggro strip a brute I most situations.

[BlackHearted]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Just to be clear, even not taunting, a tank with auras and attacking is going to aggro strip a brute I most situations.

Thank you so much for the help with this.... after reading the other thread you posted I realize I had completely forgotten about the way/fact debuffs effect threat calculations and think this is a big factor in my confusion... personally I am not a fan of the added 10% bc now tanks are definitely Supreme overlords of who gets what agro when... but that is definitely a biased opinion from someone who favors brutes.... and I guess tanks deserve a little something.

 

looks like I’m making a new tank for when I really want that agro... thanks again for all the info.

Edited February 22, 2020 by BlackHearted

[Haijinx]

Since Taunt duration figures in, you could slot for that to counteract the tankers higher normal effects.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Since Taunt duration figures in, you could slot for that to counteract the tankers higher normal effects.

It's worth a try.  Very few tankers slot for taunt much if at all.  Perhaps a heavily taunt slotted brute could outdo them.

[siolfir]

I thought that this was common sense to say since we've been posting the formula and talking about trying to grab aggro, but...

 

9 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Situational. If you taunted and attacked first with auras on, then the tank would need to double your threat to steal aggro, in that moment. Like this,

A Brute that was taunting would apply a 41 second taunt duration, which is much longer than the 14.96 seconds Tankers get for Gauntlet (applying more than double the threat since that's the largest known part of the formula). A Tanker is still going to have some mobs come at them, because the target cap for Taunt is low, and Gauntlet's taunt is AoE vs Fury being single target, but the mobs affected by Taunt should stick, and the base recharge for Taunt is one quarter of its base duration so you can use it on different mobs to hold a higher number.

 

You'll also have to do some damage, but if one is using Taunt and the other isn't, the one using Taunt should win as long as the damage is comparable and the mobs aren't that far apart. Note that this doesn't work with Confront - it has a shorter duration (23.1 seconds) on ATs with a lower AT threat multiplier (3 vs 4) so the math doesn't work out as well.

 

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Since Taunt duration figures in, you could slot for that to counteract the tankers higher normal effects.

If you want to do it passively and didn't take Taunt, yes - you could slot for taunt duration. But if you really want to hold aggro, the more reliable way is to take and use Taunt because the base duration is so long. But that eats into your time attacking, so most Brutes don't use it.

 

[Sura]

10 hours ago, BlackHearted said:

Thank you so much for the help with this.... after reading the other thread you posted I realize I had completely forgotten about the way/fact debuffs effect threat calculations and think this is a big factor in my confusion... personally I am not a fan of the added 10% bc now tanks are definitely Supreme overlords of who gets what agro when... but that is definitely a biased opinion from someone who favors brutes.... and I guess tanks deserve a little something.

 

looks like I’m making a new tank for when I really want that agro... thanks again for all the info.

You could also just make another build for your Brute.  Have one build that's a main tank build (your current build) and another that's an all-hands-on-deck offensive build.  It makes your character that much more versatile and switches things up based on the vagaries of group composition.   

 

EDIT: Also, you can start groups and just say "need damage and control".  I see stuff like that all the time.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Sura

[Captain Powerhouse]

Taunt mag only means anything if the target has Taunt Protection (Bosses have a tiny bit, requiring mag 4 for taunts to work on them)

 

Tanker and Brute Taunts are all Mag 4

The only difference  now is Tanker Taunt lasts a couple seconds more than Brute Taunt.

 

Taunt The Power should almost always steal aggro from any other Brute or Tanker, unless the other Tanker/Brute taunted first OR heavily enhanced some attacks for Taunting.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Taunt The Power should almost always steal aggro from any other Brute or Tanker, unless the other Tanker/Brute taunted first OR heavily enhanced some attacks for Taunting.

I strip aggro from Tankers/Brutes all of the time on a WP Brute because of this. If you really want to control aggro, don’t give up the most useful tool (even if it costs you a couple of points of DPS). If Taunt is in your attack chain, the majority of the aggro comes to you.

 

Also, you can look into an Alpha that enhances Taunt in the T3-T4 range. That can help in the level 45+ game.