illu/rad solo av's and GM's?

[cparks70402]

isnt there something fundamentally wrong with the game if the weakest class, with the fewest attacks, lowest damage, and weakest debuffs can solo something that requires 8 people to take down?

[Dark Bladed]

They've been able to since the early days of live. So if the live devs never did anything to change that, then i would say there is nothing fundamentally wrong.

[cparks70402]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 10:52 AM, Dark Bladed said:

They've been able to since the early days of live. So if the live devs never did anything to change that, then i would say there is nothing fundamentally wrong.

well ya there is if 1 class can solo everything it would make all the other classes completely pointless. i cant solo an av/gm on my blaster.

[Dark Bladed]

This game has become incredibly easy over the years. With incarnates and some set bonuses, you should be able to solo an AV on your blaster. In the speedrun thread, there is someone soloing an Apex TF, an incarnate level TF, in under 10 minutes. A set being able to solo an AV or GM does not really mean much in the grand scheme of the game. Ill/Rads in specific are very good at killing a single target, but kind of crumble when clearing mobs. That's their trade off. A Spines/Fire brute is pretty good at clearing mobs, but tend to struggle a little bit in terms of a single AV/GM. Every set is completely viable in this game, and that's the way it should stay.

[cparks70402]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 11:04 AM, Dark Bladed said:

This game has become incredibly easy over the years. With incarnates and some set bonuses, you should be able to solo an AV on your blaster. In the speedrun thread, there is someone soloing an Apex TF, an incarnate level TF, in under 10 minutes. A set being able to solo an AV or GM does not really mean much in the grand scheme of the game. Ill/Rads in specific are very good at killing a single target, but kind of crumble when clearing mobs. That's their trade off. A Spines/Fire brute is pretty good at clearing mobs, but tend to struggle a little bit in terms of a single AV/GM. Every set is completely viable in this game, and that's the way it should stay.

fair enough.

[Lines]

You're not entirely wrong that there's a dissonance in the game design, where it encourages teams of 8 to do content that 1 person, or at least much smaller teams, could do. At least I find it to be so.

 

It's great that the game is a fun challenge solo, but I think I'd team a lot more if team content were harder, or at least required paying more attention. The game was starting to develop that way towards the end, but that sort of stuff is scarce and exceptional, with older endgame content being a bit left in the dust. I can only roflstomp so much, but that's just me.

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

isnt there something fundamentally wrong with the game if the weakest class, with the fewest attacks, lowest damage, and weakest debuffs can solo something that requires 8 people to take down?

weakest class?

troller personal damage is low, but they are a pet class with force multiplication capabilities. Illusion exemplifies that. 

 

your blaster might not be able to solo AV's. Many people can.

 

Nothing "requires" any specific number of players on homecoming with the exception of a few trials and whatnot. Most TF's and such can be started and completed by a single player now as multi clicks have been removed. 

 

You can make an argument that some things shouldn't be the way they are, but the current game allows (and even promotes) individuals tackling just about all content. 

[Carnifax]

2 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

well ya there is if 1 class can solo everything it would make all the other classes completely pointless. i cant solo an av/gm on my blaster.

An Illusion/Rad can solo AVs, but that doesnt tell you the whole story. Plenty of other builds can clear other content much, much faster than them. 

 

[cparks70402]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 1:05 PM, Frosticus said:

weakest class?

troller personal damage is low, but they are a pet class with force multiplication capabilities. Illusion exemplifies that. 

 

your blaster might not be able to solo AV's. Many people can.

 

Nothing "requires" any specific number of players on homecoming with the exception of a few trials and whatnot. Most TF's and such can be started and completed by a single player now as multi clicks have been removed. 

 

You can make an argument that some things shouldn't be the way they are, but the current game allows (and even promotes) individuals tackling just about all content. 

i mean weakest as in hp.

[Carnifax]

4 minutes ago, cparks70402 said:

i mean weakest as in hp.

Masterminds?

[Frosticus]

2 minutes ago, cparks70402 said:

i mean weakest as in hp.

Oh, well that isn't really the case either.

 

But even if that were, hp is only one factor in handling survival.

defense, tohit debuffing, damage debuffing, personal resistances, putting aggro on other targets and more are all examples of how a "low hp" AT can handle tough enemies.

 

If you directly compare them to how a tank would fight then sure it seems like they shouldn't survive... I guess.

 

But your example of ill/rad has:

- damage debuffing, tohit debuffing, an army of invulnerable pets that taunt... and more. 

[boggo2300]

What on Earth do HP's have to do with being able to take down an enemy?

[Extor Prime]

This is the way.

[Solarverse]

10 hours ago, Dark Bladed said:

This game has become incredibly easy over the years. With incarnates and some set bonuses, you should be able to solo an AV on your blaster. In the speedrun thread, there is someone soloing an Apex TF, an incarnate level TF, in under 10 minutes. A set being able to solo an AV or GM does not really mean much in the grand scheme of the game. Ill/Rads in specific are very good at killing a single target, but kind of crumble when clearing mobs. That's their trade off. A Spines/Fire brute is pretty good at clearing mobs, but tend to struggle a little bit in terms of a single AV/GM. Every set is completely viable in this game, and that's the way it should stay.

Yup, because face rolling everything in this game is hella fun. Nowhere near as fun as a good challenging game that kept your heart racing. IO's and Incarnates was the worst thing the Devs could have ever done to this game. I said it when they introduced the idea and I'm saying it now all these years later. The game is unchallenging, and makes all sorts of AT's useless and pretty much bench warmers. I still love the game, but nowhere near as much as I did before IOs were created. IO's are this game's bane.

[Gulbasaur]

15 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

isnt there something fundamentally wrong with the game if the weakest class, with the fewest attacks, lowest damage, and weakest debuffs can solo something that requires 8 people to take down?

Think of it the other way round: brutes and scrappers can only do the same thing with massive hit point pools and damage boost mechanics. Controllers aren't the weakest, they just get their safety from making enemies less effective rather than making themselves more effective. 

 

The game was designed so that you could play it in different ways. Buffs and control have much higher status than they do in the average MMO. Just because tank-and-spank is what the average group PUG does, doesn't mean it's the strongest or best way, it's just the least effort. 

 

Some time, try playing with a team of all "support" sets - they can get to really absurd levels of power with overlapping and interlocking buffs and debuffs. One of the best ITF runs I ever did had my fortunata tanking - the rest were controllers, defenders, masterminds or blasters. It was quick. It was safe. It was fun. 

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, Gulbasaur said:

Think of it the other way round: brutes and scrappers can only do the same thing with massive hit point pools and damage boost mechanics. Controllers aren't the weakest, they just get their safety from making enemies less effective rather than making themselves more effective. 

 

The game was designed so that you could play it in different ways. Buffs and control have much higher status than they do in the average MMO. Just because tank-and-spank is what the average group PUG does, doesn't mean it's the strongest or best way, it's just the least effort. 

 

Some time, try playing with a team of all "support" sets - they can get to really absurd levels of power with overlapping and interlocking buffs and debuffs. One of the best ITF runs I ever did had my fortunata tanking - the rest were controllers, defenders, masterminds or blasters. It was quick. It was safe. It was fun. 

All 'Troller teams are really express steamrollers!

[DR_Mechano]

18 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

isnt there something fundamentally wrong with the game if the weakest class, with the fewest attacks, lowest damage, and weakest debuffs can solo something that requires 8 people to take down?

Also note that the game isn't World of Warcraft there is no holy trinity and never really has been. Even before IOs, before Incarnates, Illusion/Rad was there with its laser focused on crippling a single big target and two of them together could buff each other so that they could duo AVs with ease. The namer Offender (offensive Defender) actually came about because that was, IIRC, the nickname of the group of an all Defender team who did bi-weekly runs of Taskforces, including the, at the time, hardest TF in the game, the Statesman TF.

 

There had been examples of All Blasters, All Scrapper, All Tankers...basically every single AT completing content (BEFORE IOs remember) designed for a balanced group.

 

Bots or Thugs Mastermind with Traps were also premier AV soloers LONG before IOs became a thing and IIRC Masterminds get worst debuffs than Controllers.

 

Oh and those people moaning about a challenge. Perhaps try to do the harder challenges every so often. Has your character got the Master of the Magisterium badge for example? Do they have the Master of the Statesman/Lord Recluse TF? Do you actually try to solo taskforces or do you just sit back and face roll regular content and then moan about how easy it is? Do you do challenge characters (Power pools only, level 1 powers enhanced only etc.) Do you play Powerset combos that aren't FotM?

 

The answer to these question is usually no for many people. Also no, IOs did not make certain AT 'benchwarmers' There is certain content where you'll want a dedicated tank still, namely iTrials and Tankers are probably the most maligned AT (apart from maybe Sentinel), everything else either provides great damage, great debuffs/buffs or great crowd control. Also you'll almost never see anyone turn down any AT for regular normal content, it's only for niche things like speedrunning taskforces that you will see a team drop the Tanker but, as just mentioned, those are incredibly niche.

Edited January 12, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

Also note that the game isn't World of Warcraft there is no holy trinity and never really has been. Even before IOs, before Incarnates, Illusion/Rad was there with its laser focused on crippling a single big target and two of them together could buff each other so that they could duo AVs with ease. The namer Offender (offensive Defender) actually came about because that was, IIRC, the nickname of the group of an all Defender team who did bi-weekly runs of Taskforces, including the, at the time, hardest TF in the game, the Statesman TF.

 

There had been examples of All Blasters, All Scrapper, All Tankers...basically every single AT completing content (BEFORE IOs remember) designed for a balanced group.

 

Bots or Thugs Mastermind with Traps were also premier AV soloers LONG before IOs became a thing and IIRC Masterminds get worst debuffs than Controllers.

 

Nitpicks: plenty of builds (including Ill/Rad) could solo AVs before IOs, although Radiation Emission or Traps made it a lot easier (in both cases due to bugged powers). I specifically made an EM/Elec Brute in i8 (the issue before IOs) just to see how many different AVs I could solo with her. Also, nobody was running the Statesman TF before IOs - they were introduced in the same issue and at the time it was considered easier than the Recluse Strike Force (which has since been nerfed twice to make it easier).

 

The rest of the post is solid, and the Repeat Offenders were just running everything else - quite easily, since the individual benefit from IO sets is smaller than the benefit from a mixed team of Defenders, but it was implying that you needed to duo AVs before IOs and skewing time a bit.

Edited January 12, 2020 by siolfir
reword last paragraph

[DR_Mechano]

7 minutes ago, siolfir said:

 

Nitpicks: plenty of builds (including Ill/Rad) could solo AVs before IOs, although Radiation Emission or Traps made it a lot easier (in both cases due to bugged powers). I specifically made an EM/Elec Brute in i8 (the issue before IOs) just to see how many different AVs I could solo with her. Also, nobody was running the Statesman TF before IOs - they were introduced in the same issue and at the time it was considered easier than the Recluse Strike Force (which has since been nerfed twice to make it easier).

 

The rest of the post is solid, and the Repeat Offenders were just running everything else - quite easily, since the individual benefit from IO sets is smaller than the benefit from a mixed team of Defenders, but it was implying that you needed to duo AVs before IOs and skewing time a bit.

Ah for some reason thought the STF came in before IOs, huh the more you know! But yeah there were plenty of all one archetype villain teams doing the LRSF IIRC. Still thanks on the corrections!

[HelenCarnate]

20 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

well ya there is if 1 class can solo everything it would make all the other classes completely pointless. i cant solo an av/gm on my blaster.

I can.  I did a MoITF run solo.  I did not do it but I have seen it done at +4 on a blaster.  The right Sentinel build can do the same and has done STF and LRSF as well.  The only AT that has trouble is Tanks but there are some builds that can still do it.  By your own logic this means that all classes are pointless.

[HelenCarnate]

21 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

i mean weakest as in hp.

One of the fastest times on the pylon thread was done by a Mastermind

[HelenCarnate]

8 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

Think of it the other way round: brutes and scrappers can only do the same thing with massive hit point pools and damage boost mechanics. Controllers aren't the weakest, they just get their safety from making enemies less effective rather than making themselves more effective. 

 

The game was designed so that you could play it in different ways. Buffs and control have much higher status than they do in the average MMO. Just because tank-and-spank is what the average group PUG does, doesn't mean it's the strongest or best way, it's just the least effort. 

 

Some time, try playing with a team of all "support" sets - they can get to really absurd levels of power with overlapping and interlocking buffs and debuffs. One of the best ITF runs I ever did had my fortunata tanking - the rest were controllers, defenders, masterminds or blasters. It was quick. It was safe. It was fun. 

We are running a all -resist team Monday nights.  We got to lvl 18 the first night and everything was melting and we don't even have most of our debuffs yet. It is a ton of fun.

[Gulbasaur]

12 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

We are running a all -resist team Monday nights.  We got to lvl 18 the first night and everything was melting and we don't even have most of our debuffs yet. It is a ton of fun.

My tanker and my brute feel safe while my fortunata feels powerful. I can kite AVs with all five of my hit points and look good doing it. 

 

I really like the idea of sonic/sonic and it's pretty fun to play - there's something about it that feels very smooth. I've never entirely stuck with it beyond about level 30 - I think the fact that -res (and -dmg) can't be enhanced takes a bit of fun out of it. I can see how it'd dominate the meta if it did take enhancements and the base effect is already pretty powerful... but I feel like it took an layer of what I enjoy out of building a character. 

 

Have fun!

Edited January 12, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Frosticus]

13 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Yup, because face rolling everything in this game is hella fun. Nowhere near as fun as a good challenging game that kept your heart racing. IO's and Incarnates was the worst thing the Devs could have ever done to this game. I said it when they introduced the idea and I'm saying it now all these years later. The game is unchallenging, and makes all sorts of AT's useless and pretty much bench warmers. I still love the game, but nowhere near as much as I did before IOs were created. IO's are this game's bane.

I like IOs, but I largely agree.

I think set bonuses are the issue. They could all be cut in half and they'd still be extremely desirable. 

 

Just the ability to Franken slot that IOs gives matched or even exceeded hami slotting. 

 

I miss getting on a team and really feeling the impact of some buff/debuffs. They are all still welcome but far less tangible imo. 

[HelenCarnate]

Not everyone is sonic/sonic. I actually don't think we have one of those.  We have a mix of some sonic blast, Rad defender and controller debuffs, storm and a /Bio brute to handle aggro in the rare event it is needed.