Revisit the Energy Melee nerfs

[Solarverse]

This topic showed up recently in both the Tanker and Brute forums, and so it's opened up an old wound for me. I'd like to be clear, I'm not looking to dig my heels in on this. I'm willing to be convinced some kind of nerf might have been needed, but I'm skeptical that the one implemented was fair. That said, I'll do my best to plead my case.

 

The common argument I hear is that Energy Melee (EM) was overpowered. Specifically, with its two extreme damage single target attacks, Total Focus (TF) and Energy Transfer (ET).

 

My experience playing the set to 50 on a tank (I'm aware this is anecdotal) was that while killing bosses was much easier for the set, killing whole groups wasn't. This was before the introduction of IOs, and after ED. While EM was known for being a monster in single target damage, I don't remember it being all the rave that Fire/SS tankers were. It's only AoE attack was a weak one by comparison to other melee sets. This, coupled with its self-damage in ET were what brought balance to the set.

 

I want to be open minded, so I can be convinced that perhaps a change to the damage from these two powers needed adjusting. But the animation changes completely changed the whole feel of the set into something that seemed antithetical to its theme; being energetic.

 

Sadly, I don't have numbers for how the set used to be. Neither am I the best at number crunching. So any and all information that can be provided would be welcomed. I'm curious if there are some out there that think EM was treated unfairly, and what thoughts are out there for how it could be better managed. Enlighten me. Educate me. Please.

 

I agree with this completely. I can't hardly play Energy as a Tank since then. I try, and then I even actually SKIP Energy Transfer because of the pooping squat animation. I hate that I skip it, but I hate it that much. I hated that nerf, it almost made me quit the game. Nerf it, sure, but change the animation? Why??? That was the only fix? Really? Yeah, man...I'm right there with ya.

[Vanden]

I agree with this completely. I can't hardly play Energy as a Tank since then. I try, and then I even actually SKIP Energy Transfer because of the pooping squat animation. I hate that I skip it, but I hate it that much. I hated that nerf, it almost made me quit the game. Nerf it, sure, but change the animation? Why??? That was the only fix? Really? Yeah, man...I'm right there with ya.

 

One thing I do not want is the animation changed. It's too cool. That used to be Back Alley Brawler's signature move. They actually gave us a signature character's unique move! Just buff the damage so the DPA is better, and maybe other aspects of the set to improve EM. But don't remove that great animation.

[marcussmythe]

I agree with this completely. I can't hardly play Energy as a Tank since then. I try, and then I even actually SKIP Energy Transfer because of the pooping squat animation. I hate that I skip it, but I hate it that much. I hated that nerf, it almost made me quit the game. Nerf it, sure, but change the animation? Why??? That was the only fix? Really? Yeah, man...I'm right there with ya.

 

One thing I do not want is the animation changed. It's too cool. That used to be Back Alley Brawler's signature move. They actually gave us a signature character's unique move! Just buff the damage so the DPA is better, and maybe other aspects of the set to improve EM. But don't remove that great animation.

 

Not a fan of the super-long animation, myself.  Maybe give ET its old animation back, and move the current ET animation to TF?  Its not like TF is a world beater and the ET animation -would be- an improvement over the bullet time jump...

[Solarverse]

I'm afriad I don't remember exactly, but I thought this was one of the many sets that took it on the chin because of PvP balance issues (where single target advantages reign supreme). One of the challenges with PvP on every MMO, is that you cannot have specialization and game balance. By definition making some powers different enough to be distinguished will always give folks a hook for abusing that unique feature to grief.

 

I left the game around that time for this very reason.  Nerfs were flying fast and furious in the interests of PvP balance, which I cared nothing for, and they were ruining the PvE experience, which I loved.  Sets and incarnate powers have enabled some of my favorite builds to feel strong again, so I've returned, but yeah, those nerfs were terrible and the motivation for them a bad one.  What should have been done was a PvP-only nerf, but that apparently required too many resources for the CoH dev team to pull off.

 

What kills me is that Jack Dummert told us that this game would never have PvP. Then after they lied about that, they told us powers would not be nerfed in the name of PvP. Then, they turned around and claimed that all these nerfs were nerfed due to PvE, when everyone knew it was a lie, they did indeed nerf it for PvP. I know, because I was a huge PvPer, and people complained like insanity over everything that eventually got nerfed.

 

So many nerfs happened because of PvP it turned a lot of us off from this game. Even the travel power suppression nerf happened because of PvP. They enacted that RIGHT after the Arena went live. Really glad it's gone now.

 

But yes, I want the old animation back for Energy Transfer, among others that were changed.

[Solarverse]

I agree with this completely. I can't hardly play Energy as a Tank since then. I try, and then I even actually SKIP Energy Transfer because of the pooping squat animation. I hate that I skip it, but I hate it that much. I hated that nerf, it almost made me quit the game. Nerf it, sure, but change the animation? Why??? That was the only fix? Really? Yeah, man...I'm right there with ya.

 

One thing I do not want is the animation changed. It's too cool. That used to be Back Alley Brawler's signature move. They actually gave us a signature character's unique move! Just buff the damage so the DPA is better, and maybe other aspects of the set to improve EM. But don't remove that great animation.

 

Hey, we loved it as the original animation first though, it's been changed...and now we can't have it back? Maybe they should just add a second power, one for people who love the new animation (I honestly can't see why, but I get it I guess) and one for people who want the original back...the catch; you can only chose one. Once chosen, the other goes grey and is unavailable without a respec. Seems like every change people think of, you always have people who don't want it...so the only solution is to give them both powers as the way they were, as an option.

[Solarverse]

I agree with this completely. I can't hardly play Energy as a Tank since then. I try, and then I even actually SKIP Energy Transfer because of the pooping squat animation. I hate that I skip it, but I hate it that much. I hated that nerf, it almost made me quit the game. Nerf it, sure, but change the animation? Why??? That was the only fix? Really? Yeah, man...I'm right there with ya.

 

One thing I do not want is the animation changed. It's too cool. That used to be Back Alley Brawler's signature move. They actually gave us a signature character's unique move! Just buff the damage so the DPA is better, and maybe other aspects of the set to improve EM. But don't remove that great animation.

 

Not a fan of the super-long animation, myself.  Maybe give ET its old animation back, and move the current ET animation to TF?  Its not like TF is a world beater and the ET animation -would be- an improvement over the bullet time jump...

 

God no! Just add another power to the set, pick one, the other greys out....I love the set as it originally was. Giving us one back while taking another away puts us right back at square one.

[marcussmythe]

Oddball thought:

 

Cottage Rule and Energy Melee as a set -

 

In general, you chose Energy Melee because it was the best single target Tank set.  (Leaving aside issues of those who liked the animations, or the graphics, or the stun effects - said stun effects not being unique to set)

 

Post changes, it became almost exactly the worst single target tank set. Dead heat with, if slightly leading, Icd Melee.

 

So, in essence, an entire powerset was cottage ruled into being the exact opposite of what it was when it was chosen.

[HelenCarnate]

Oddball thought:

 

Cottage Rule and Energy Melee as a set -

 

In general, you chose Energy Melee because it was the best single target Tank set.  (Leaving aside issues of those who liked the animations, or the graphics, or the stun effects - said stun effects not being unique to set)

 

Post changes, it became almost exactly the worst single target tank set. Dead heat with, if slightly leading, Icd Melee.

 

So, in essence, an entire powerset was cottage ruled into being the exact opposite of what it was when it was chosen.

 

The irony being that Ice Melee has the highest Tank/Brute DPA attack.

[Rylas]

One thing I do not want is the animation changed. It's too cool. That used to be Back Alley Brawler's signature move. They actually gave us a signature character's unique move! Just buff the damage so the DPA is better, and maybe other aspects of the set to improve EM. But don't remove that great animation.

 

I wouldn't mind if the animation was the same, but shorted down to 1 sec. Leaving oneself open to attacks while you charge up an attack that also hurts you, doesn't seem necessary at all.

[marcussmythe]

Can someone better with numbers than me let me know if reverting EM to its original cast time would be sufficient to repair EM by comparison with other Tank Secondaries?  Or do we need to start reworking other damage values and animation times?

 

My gut is telling me that in light of Sets That Have Come Since, the reversion would not alone solve the problem, but Im not good enough to math that.

[Solarverse]

Can someone better with numbers than me let me know if reverting EM to its original cast time would be sufficient to repair EM by comparison with other Tank Secondaries?  Or do we need to start reworking other damage values and animation times?

 

My gut is telling me that in light of Sets That Have Come Since, the reversion would not alone solve the problem, but Im not good enough to math that.

 

I dont have the time nor will to do all the math on that, but what I can say, is the set *feels* like, if the original animation was brought back, and the range of the AoE was extended, the set would be back up to snuff.

[marcussmythe]

Can someone better with numbers than me let me know if reverting EM to its original cast time would be sufficient to repair EM by comparison with other Tank Secondaries?  Or do we need to start reworking other damage values and animation times?

 

My gut is telling me that in light of Sets That Have Come Since, the reversion would not alone solve the problem, but Im not good enough to math that.

 

I dont have the time nor will to do all the math on that, but what I can say, is the set *feels* like, if the original animation was brought back, and the range of the AoE was extended, the set would be back up to snuff.

 

Hmm.  Extending the range/AOE (and number of targets, likely) on the AOE could work.  Im still about EM getting its 'single target' hat back, but I may be crying alone in the wilderness, there.

 

If we make it bigger, the leap-spinny-hands bit may not match up.  Maybe one of the big, meaty, ground-punch animations, or a hand-clap followed by a wave of energy?

[Infinitum]

Can someone better with numbers than me let me know if reverting EM to its original cast time would be sufficient to repair EM by comparison with other Tank Secondaries?  Or do we need to start reworking other damage values and animation times?

 

My gut is telling me that in light of Sets That Have Come Since, the reversion would not alone solve the problem, but Im not good enough to math that.

 

I dont have the time nor will to do all the math on that, but what I can say, is the set *feels* like, if the original animation was brought back, and the range of the AoE was extended, the set would be back up to snuff.

 

Hmm.  Extending the range/AOE (and number of targets, likely) on the AOE could work.  Im still about EM getting its 'single target' hat back, but I may be crying alone in the wilderness, there.

 

If we make it bigger, the leap-spinny-hands bit may not match up.  Maybe one of the big, meaty, ground-punch animations, or a hand-clap followed by a wave of energy?

 

Back in the day, my main was invul/em. I even proved a few points on the forums how tanks were still useful back when the whole 'tanks aren useful anymore' mantra was swirling about.  Then came sets and it got even better.  I literally spent a ton of time and effort setting that guy out. 

 

Some people on the live forums didn't believe how effective the damage was until I literally pulled a few on Victory server and showed them what a well designed and settled tank could do.

 

The point is before sets it excelled at single target damage, after sets it excelled at single target damage so well you could boost up on recharge and drop bosses so fast it may as well had been an aoe, but it cost a fortune in time and effort to build it.

 

If sets exist to those willing to make things more powerful why nerf the cornerstone power which ruins the set and all the effort to build it.

 

It's still playable,but to anyone that experienced it before the nerf it leave a really bad taste in your mouth.  There was no need to do the nerf either because honestly foot stomp with ss and fire aoes kill mobs faster than an equally slotted so em tank could ever do.  With the em it was mainly a boss killer.  Now it's a slow boss killer that damages you even if the power hits the boss after its dead.

 

I was so frustrated I left the game for a few years, then came back and 3 month later it was sunsetted, so I'm grateful I'm able to play again, but I would love it if this set could be restored or rebalance to make it king of single target again.

 

I like the kinetic melee fighting animations, maybe use one of those sped up to around 1 second with a longer recharge or even the original ,so those who have the desire and will to improve that recharge can do so by io sets.

[marcussmythe]

Just heard in chat in game, cannot confirm, that when they 'renormalized' Energy Transfer Animation Time/Damage, they counted the self-damage component as damage dealt by the power.  Suggesting that the intended base damage for Energy Transfer is actually (current damage+self damage) and that it should not be hurting you.

 

That might make me take the set, TBH.

 

[Fista]

Look man, I don't have any fancy numbers and such. All I know is my experience and that experience tells me before the change it ruled and now it sucks. Fix it. Thanks!

[justicebeliever]

Look man, I don't have any fancy numbers and such. All I know is my experience and that experience tells me before the change it ruled and now it sucks. Fix it. Thanks!

 

Are you being serious?  I really can't tell. 

 

If your experience is valid, then numbers shouldn't be that hard (or at least find someone with numbers).  And "Fix it"?  These are volunteer developers with full time lives...Maybe a please? 

[marcussmythe]

Look man, I don't have any fancy numbers and such. All I know is my experience and that experience tells me before the change it ruled and now it sucks. Fix it. Thanks!

 

Are you being serious?  I really can't tell. 

 

If your experience is valid, then numbers shouldn't be that hard (or at least find someone with numbers).  And "Fix it"?  These are volunteer developers with full time lives...Maybe a please?

 

Numbers, and someone elses spreadsheet numbers, posted above. 

 

I would dearly love for them to look at it (thus the suggestion) but have neither anticipation or hope.  These issues and others were old-old when the game was shut down.  To expect unpaid volunteers to repair that which Cryptic/NC Soft team bulldozed is wishful thinking.

[Infinitum]

Just heard in chat in game, cannot confirm, that when they 'renormalized' Energy Transfer Animation Time/Damage, they counted the self-damage component as damage dealt by the power.  Suggesting that the intended base damage for Energy Transfer is actually (current damage+self damage) and that it should not be hurting you.

 

That might make me take the set, TBH.

 

I can tell you from playing around on beta test that it does indeed remove HP, I mean it's not a sizeable chunk but it's noticeable and with enough recharge it could theoretically kill you.

[marcussmythe]

Whaf Im told is when they gave it the current animation time, they animated it as if its OUTGOING DAMAGE was X + Y, where X is the current outgoing damage and Y is the current self damage.

 

And yeah.  I killed myself with it more than twice over the years.

[Infinitum]

Whaf Im told is when they gave it the current animation time, they animated it as if its OUTGOING DAMAGE was X + Y, where X is the current outgoing damage and Y is the current self damage.

 

And yeah.  I killed myself with it more than twice over the years.

I see what you are saying now.

 

It's the same animation and animation time as Devastating blow from rad melee.

 

I've been testing em vs rad melee on beta and it isn't terrible, but at the same time rads aoes and debuffs blow it away single target and multi.

 

Em needs something for sure.

[OEM61]

I played an EM tanker back in the day, and I am trying to make them (or a reasonable facsimile thereof)again here, but all this has me questioning the idea.

 

It's about the concept to me;  I can not just take War Mace or Titan Weapons or whatever and call it good, but after looking at the different options Radiation Melee and Kinetic Melee are potential substitutes.

 

So, how do those two stack up to Energy Melee?

 

I guess maybe I should just try out each of them on a disposable character, maybe try them out on scrappers and brutes as well as tanks just to see which one I like best, but if someone has any suggestions I would certainly be willing to listen.

[Infinitum]

I played an EM tanker back in the day, and I am trying to make them (or a reasonable facsimile thereof)again here, but all this has me questioning the idea.

 

It's about the concept to me;  I can not just take War Mace or Titan Weapons or whatever and call it good, but after looking at the different options Radiation Melee and Kinetic Melee are potential substitutes.

 

So, how do those two stack up to Energy Melee?

 

I guess maybe I should just try out each of them on a disposable character, maybe try them out on scrappers and brutes as well as tanks just to see which one I like best, but if someone has any suggestions I would certainly be willing to listen.

 

You can go on beta and test builds out,

 

/levelup_xp 50  that command makes you lvl50

/influence_add 2000000000  that gives you a ton of I nf.

/boostset this one needs an explanation.

 

For instance type in /boostset positrons_blast 50 will give you the complete positron's blast set at lvl 50.  It works with any IO Set just dont use punctuation and use underscore between any words.  Also with sets that cap at 40 it wont work if you exceed the cap.

 

Using these commands on beta you can test out a fully IOd build in around 30 minutes of set up.  Like someone else said get Pines hero planner - the most current one I found was in someones google drive that they shared.  Use the planner to have it all planned out and min maxed before you start building.

 

To answer your question about EM vs Rad I think rad and kinetic melee feel more fluid in combat, EM still hits very hard though but IMO need tweaking.  EM will lock you down on one target till it's gone, switching targets rapidly is hard because of loooong animation times and lack of great aoes.

 

Thematically its pretty IMO, so if you had a build to work around thematically you could make it work fairly easily.  It's not horrible, but the sticking points for me are the long animation combined with the HP hit whether you hit a live or dead target or not.

 

I think what would justify keeping the long animation time and hp hit would be to make it a PBAOE like Atom Smasher on Rad. That would make it balanced again.

[marcussmythe]

Kinetic Melee is also not a staple, and there are reasons.  If you want to KM, Id run it on a Tank or Scrapper - its big ‘draw’ is an innate Dambuff mechanic, which shows less well on a Brute due to brute’s fury being such a large bonus.  Also, the mechanic was one I found troublesome to make work for me. 

 

Radiation is getting good reviews as an AOE capable set with an incidental (dont plan on it, but it can make life easier) heal and decent if not stellar single target.

 

Of the three, if you want to punch people with glowing hands, Id go Radiation.

[OEM61]

 

You can go on beta and test builds out,

 

/levelup_xp 50  that command makes you lvl50

/influence_add 2000000000  that gives you a ton of I nf.

/boostset this one needs an explanation.

 

For instance type in /boostset positrons_blast 50 will give you the complete positron's blast set at lvl 50.  It works with any IO Set just dont use punctuation and use underscore between any words.  Also with sets that cap at 40 it wont work if you exceed the cap.

 

Using these commands on beta you can test out a fully IOd build in around 30 minutes of set up.  Like someone else said get Pines hero planner - the most current one I found was in someones google drive that they shared.  Use the planner to have it all planned out and min maxed before you start building.

 

To answer your question about EM vs Rad I think rad and kinetic melee feel more fluid in combat, EM still hits very hard though but IMO need tweaking.  EM will lock you down on one target till it's gone, switching targets rapidly is hard because of loooong animation times and lack of great aoes.

 

Thematically its pretty IMO, so if you had a build to work around thematically you could make it work fairly easily.  It's not horrible, but the sticking points for me are the long animation combined with the HP hit whether you hit a live or dead target or not.

 

I think what would justify keeping the long animation time and hp hit would be to make it a PBAOE like Atom Smasher on Rad. That would make it balanced again.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I didn't use the hero builders, but I did test some builds and just sort of winged it on the IOs;  Slotted what felt like it would be "right" to slot then just looked at my IO options from there.

It was good enough for a quick test;  To see what these other powers looked and felt like.

 

Anyway, after running through a few builds I didn't like kinetic at all and rad was okay, but EM is still my favorite.

 

It may be lacking, but to me it looks and feels best.

[Fista]

Look man, I don't have any fancy numbers and such. All I know is my experience and that experience tells me before the change it ruled and now it sucks. Fix it. Thanks!

 

Are you being serious?  I really can't tell. 

 

If your experience is valid, then numbers shouldn't be that hard (or at least find someone with numbers).  And "Fix it"?  These are volunteer developers with full time lives...Maybe a please?

 

It was meant to be tongue in cheek. However.... No. I'm not that deep into the numbers on this and all I have in this regard is my personal experience. I found before the changes I really enjoyed energy melee. Now it's just OK. Just expressing my completely subjective opinion on this topic. Also I did say thanks.  :P