Revisit the Energy Melee nerfs

[Leogunner]

Just now, Kimuji said:

As for ET's animation I made two suggestions on this page: the obvious one, i.e ET's old animation, or Sweeping Cross/Cross Punch's animation if giving ET its old animation back scares everyone (which I wouldn't really understand, there are much worse offenders in the game).

If we're mincing animations, why not both?  Both a fast and a slow animation.  Use the tech for snipes/Titan Weapons that basically swap powers from the slow activating power to the fast activating power.  You just need a hook for what triggers the swap, like landing another specific EM attack or having some other effect on you or the target.

[Shadowsleuth]

In addition to having ETs animation shorted, the set should get bonus damage to stunned enemies & a mechanic that builds as you attack that turns one of your powers into a cone stun.

[Zenex]

I miss the old ET, and when it comes to fixes I think the best would probably be the simplest. Return ET to it's old animation and if that is still considered to be too OP despite having basically no aoe I would say slightly increase the self damage say from 150sih it is now to 200.

 

By lowering the animation you would allow for more ET a minute and in turn lowering your own surviverability in the process as the self damage would increase as well.

 

As far as PvP goes if that is still considered a problem the current system would drop ET's damage like a rock due to it's animation, and if hopefully that pvp system is removed i'm sure it could be tweaked for that.

[rebel_1812]

I still think the best way to balance this is to revert to old animations and just increase the recharge time.  It has the same effect of making energy melee a hard hitting set that has the dps balanced by lowering the number of attacks.  The difference is by having high recharges you give players a chance to build a toon with recharge reduction to maximize their toon.  There is nothing you can do about the animation which gimps the toon forever.

[carroto]

It's been a long time so maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but my impression is that AV soloing stories / vids were a factor in a number of nerfs, including EM.  It seems like eventually the devs got used to the idea that people would be soloing AVs and GMs, but when it first started happenning they seemed to be horrified.  Nevermind that sets like EM took longer to do it and more specialized builds than other ATs with specific debuffs available.

[ZeeHero]

6 hours ago, carroto said:

It's been a long time so maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but my impression is that AV soloing stories / vids were a factor in a number of nerfs, including EM.  It seems like eventually the devs got used to the idea that people would be soloing AVs and GMs, but when it first started happenning they seemed to be horrified.  Nevermind that sets like EM took longer to do it and more specialized builds than other ATs with specific debuffs available.

Jack Emmert's character was supposed to be able to solo GMs.. and it makes no sense to make that out of reach for player characters. the whole "you'll never be as good as this guy" is one of many big reasons DCUO sucks so hard.

[Kimuji]

In fact it's like EM is forced to follow a different set of limitations that don't apply to the other sets.
EM is forced to stay under 50 mph because who knows what would happen otherwise (Coh would die!) while everyone else is allowed to break that speed limit.

It's the same with PvP, IOs made everyone a lot more sturdy, being hit by Energy Transfer isn't as scary as it used to be back then (well even back then Regen laughed at ET). The setting has changed.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Kimuji

[Rylas]

10 hours ago, Kimuji said:

EM is forced to stay under 50 mph because who knows what would happen otherwise (Coh would die!) while everyone else is allowed to break that speed limit.

That's a pretty apt analogy. I like it. But don't forget, that was a different set of devs. I don't think anyone at the moment is forcing any limit on EM. And with the Rage changes being discussed and the interest the HC team has shown in making balanced changes to fix its issues, I'm hopeful EM will catch their eye sooner or later. Considering the numbers that have come up in the thread to show how the old EM animations wouldn't make it outshine the current top performers, I think there's good odds we can get a change. 

[Golden Azrael]

Hello,

 

Back on live, I picked up a forum build.  It made my Invul/En tank 'diamond hard.'

 

The only thing that didn't come around quick enough was Dull Pain.  But I never did pick an incarnate alpha slot for it.  I guess I ran out of time with live being pulled.

 

Single target attacks I felt were a mediocre attack chain.  Barrage was 'ok' but energy punch was meh.  Bone smasher.  Not bad.  Not brilliant.  I liked the 'big' hitters Total Focus and En' Transfer.  I like the new animation, showy....but yes, it takes ages ('hey, look at me, this is gonna hurt ya....) but I can understand those wanting the older 'quick and sweet' animation that was somewhat dull but more effective in DPS?

 

I like the 'only' AoE Whirl Fist.  But minor dam?  Mehhhh.  Make it mod' if it's your only AoE attack.  (I wonder, can you proc' it.)  I've re-rolled it on Homecoming.  But haven't done much with it.  It was 'hard going' at times on Live as I remember.  I even rolled a brute version which boosts it's mediocre dam' but the armour seems much weaker than on tank.

 

After all, I'd have to be a mazochist to L50 it...?

 

On live I had a res' capped and almost def' capped build.  I only had to step into 1 mob range and I would cap due to invinciblility.  Lovely!

 

(Say, looks around *discreetly, if I were to L50 it...what build would you guys rec' to res and def' cap it?)

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

Revisit it?  Sure.

 

I have an ice/ice/ice tank that is underwhelming with damage.  But it's more of a control tank.  I love it.  Sometimes I have to accept that damage just isn't going to be my thing compared to e.g. A titan's weapon tank.  Man, those are boppa whoppa.

 

I can why each tank was how it was originally with their differences.  But the new ones like Titan, Rad, Bio... eclipsed the originals.  More POW-URRR to get people to play the game.  Look at our latest darling....get the punters back in an playing.  Then you get the originals left out in the cold by comparison.  Then suddenly they're 'broken' or less appealing.

 

Time can pass us by...  ('You were the future once.')

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

What incarnate would you go for?

 

Ageless?  Musculature?  Agility?

Azrael.

[Infinitum]

I think I've found a solution to fix EM.

 

Ive been playing psi melee, and played it all the way to 50 on my brute.

 

It reminds me a lot of how you would expect em to feel and play.

 

It's fast

It flows well

It has a cool insight mechanic.

It has an AOE better than whirling hands.

 

The only bad thing is if you are looking for punchy, it's just not there.

 

So my thoughts are why not rework psi melee animations for a punchy set and transpose it almost identical numbers and mechanics wise to EM.

 

There is your fix without making EM an outlier again.

 

Plus look at the screen pic, you can do that.

 

Thats burst damage and faster burst damage than what EM used to do.

[Zenex]

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I think I've found a solution to fix EM.

 

Ive been playing psi melee, and played it all the way to 50 on my brute.

 

It reminds me a lot of how you would expect em to feel and play.

 

It's fast

It flows well

It has a cool insight mechanic.

It has an AOE better than whirling hands.

 

The only bad thing is if you are looking for punchy, it's just not there.

 

So my thoughts are why not rework psi melee animations for a punchy set and transpose it almost identical numbers and mechanics wise to EM.

 

There is your fix without making EM an outlier again.

The idea isn't bad but what I think most people want is the old EM they had back in the day rather than a complete rehaul, which should be much less effort for Home coming team. 

 

I think Kimuji hit the nail on the head with how

17 hours ago, Kimuji said:

EM is forced to stay under 50 mph, while everyone else is allowed to break that speed limit.

as the old EM was a single target monster at the loss of aoe would no longer be OP in comparison to current sets vs back when it was nerfed.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Zenex said:

The idea isn't bad but what I think most people want is the old EM they had back in the day rather than a complete rehaul, which should be much less effort for Home coming team. 

 

I think Kimuji hit the nail on the head with how

as the old EM was a single target monster at the loss of aoe would no longer be OP in comparison to current sets vs back when it was nerfed.

Psi melee with overhauled animations for EM wouldnt be hard, the animations already exist, and psi melee already has stats.

 

Just transfer, it would actually be an upgrade from where it was before to do it this way.  For ET maybe use the alternative animation for melt armor - the cast version with greater psi swords animation time.

[Haijinx]

I doubt simply reverting em would make it over powered in today's game.

 

If anything it wouldn't even hit the top 3 ST. 

 

 

[Megajoule]

Maybe make a few tweaks while they have the chance, but yeah, pretty much.

[Haijinx]

If tweeking ...

 

That teir 1 barrage should be replaced with something faster as well.

 

Not only is it too slow.  But it feels dumb. 

 

If they must keep a double punch, use the initial strikes from street justice animation.

 

When the set was nerfed it was before IOs made animation times matter as much as they do now.

[Rylas]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Psi melee with overhauled animations for EM wouldnt be hard, the animations already exist, and psi melee already has stats.

 

Just transfer, it would actually be an upgrade from where it was before to do it this way.  For ET maybe use the alternative animation for melt armor - the cast version with greater psi swords animation time.

It sounds like you're suggesting that EM be turned into Psi 2.0, unless I'm following you incorrectly. Better or not, I think most people just want it returned to how it was. A niche set for fast and strong ST damage. The boss killer set. It doesn't have to perform better than it used to. Not all sets can be at the top, but they should stand apart on their own. Being Psi 2.0 doesn't help EM stand on its own like it did before. 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Rylas said:

It sounds like you're suggesting that EM be turned into Psi 2.0, unless I'm following you incorrectly. Better or not, I think most people just want it returned to how it was. A niche set for fast and strong ST damage. The boss killer set. It doesn't have to perform better than it used to. Not all sets can be at the top, but they should stand apart on their own. Being Psi 2.0 doesn't help EM stand on its own like it did before. 

Not exactly psi 2.0 but psi-less glowing punch goodness.

 

From playing a lot of newer sets to 50 the last 2 week's, old EM wont stand out anymore.

 

If you base it on psi with a good mechanic like insight it will be better than old EM with a better single target niche.

[Zenex]

9 hours ago, Infinitum said:

9 hours ago, Zenex said:

The idea isn't bad but what I think most people want is the old EM they had back in the day rather than a complete rehaul, which should be much less effort for Home coming team. 

 

I think Kimuji hit the nail on the head with how

as the old EM was a single target monster at the loss of aoe would no longer be OP in comparison to current sets vs back when it was nerfed.

Psi melee with overhauled animations for EM wouldnt be hard, the animations already exist, and psi melee already has stats.

I meant it more as a "keep it simple" point of view in that the Home coming team is doing this for free and out of their own time. They themselves must have many things they want to do, and the community has even more they are suggesting on top of that.

 

8 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I doubt simply reverting em would make it over powered in today's game.

 

If anything it wouldn't even hit the top 3 ST. 

Exactly due to new and improved sets out in the current game revering the ET nerf would not be game breaking or even number one again.

 

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

If tweeking ...

That teir 1 barrage should be replaced with something faster as well.

Not only is it too slow.  But it feels dumb. 

If they must keep a double punch, use the initial strikes from street justice animation.

When the set was nerfed it was before IOs made animation times matter as much as they do now.

Barrage actually did a lot less damage than energy punch and had it's damage already boosted a good amount. 

I also loved the double punch = D

[Kimuji]

Yeah I like EM's animations, including Barrage.

And yes I think that to most here the goal isn't to make EM something that will flatten entire groups in seconds but to give it back its single target explosiveness, that ability to deliver a massive amount of damage to a target in just a few hits. Even in the 'old days' EM wasn't the best pve set, its aoe capabilities were as limited as they are today and great single target damage burst could only carry you so far, but you had a spot as a boss and lieutenant killer. And of course it was very popular for pvp because pvp is all about burst damage, and the impressive amount of stun you could stack was the icing on the cake.

So that's what EM 'nostalgics' are after, not really a well balanced set with fancy mechanics. I mean those are nice but EM dabs more into the extremes. EM is about unbalance, and I don't mean unbalanced when compared to the other sets, but unbalanced within the set itself. EM's base idea is to sacrifice key areas in order to excel at delivering high bursts of damage (you sacrifice your aoe and your own HPs for this). And that's why I don't think these mechanics based on building damage over time and similar concepts are on spot when we're talking about EM. They are perfectly fine and very interesting ideas for other sets, but EM's identity and concept lies in ST explosiveness not in a progressive power build up.

Maybe we should do more than just make ET lightning fast again and FT no longer the sluggish slow motion attack it is now to make EM excel at what it is designed to do, but that would already be a good start.

(And if people are bold enough to ask for a perma crash less Rage for SS then it shouldn't be a problem if EM, a much more under-performing set than SS, also gets a Build Up with twice the damage bonus right? 😄 ).

Edited August 24, 2019 by Kimuji

[Infinitum]

27 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

Yeah I like EM's animations, including Barrage.

So that's what EM 'nostalgics' are after, not really a well balanced set with fancy mechanics. I mean those are nice but EM dabs more into the extremes. EM is about unbalance, and I don't mean unbalanced when compared to the other sets, but unbalanced within the set itself. EM's base idea is to sacrifice key areas in order to excel at delivering high bursts of damage (you sacrifice your aoe and your own HPs for this). And that's why I don't think these mechanics based on building damage over time and similar concepts are on spot when we're talking about EM. They are perfectly fine and very interesting ideas for other sets, but EM's identity and concept lies in ST explosiveness not in a progressive power build up.

Maybe we should do more than just make ET lightning fast again and FT no longer the sluggish slow motion attack it is now to make EM excel at what it is designed to do, but that would already be a good start.

Yeah I like barrages animation too.  You wouldn't necessarily change them all.

 

As for the burst damage, that's exactly what I'm talking about doing.  It's super easy to get a stack of insight.  At that point you are out burst damaging what EM used to be with better flow than it currently has.

[AerialAssault]

On 8/18/2019 at 5:22 PM, Shadowsleuth said:

In addition to having ETs animation shorted, the set should get bonus damage to stunned enemies & a mechanic that builds as you attack that turns one of your powers into a cone stun.

have you be listening in to some of my conversations? 😛

 

i think out of all the Energy Melee powers, Stun is in dire need of a buff. Most of the EM powers have a decent chance to stun anyway, so that most enemies will be stunned after one rotation of powers. like you say, perhaps Stun could do bonus damage (or even Crit) against stunned enemies and also turn into a cone attack. It would make the long casting time at least worth it.

 

my only other suggestion (aside from some of the good ones already made here) would be to make Total Focus a Targeted AoE like Thunder Strike, doing an AoE stun rather than KB.

[Rylas]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Not exactly psi 2.0 but psi-less glowing punch goodness.

 

From playing a lot of newer sets to 50 the last 2 week's, old EM wont stand out anymore.

 

If you base it on psi with a good mechanic like insight it will be better than old EM with a better single target niche.

Believe it or not, but not having mechanics like Insight, Contamination, Blood Frenzy, Combo Building or Momentum can be appealing. Sometimes it's nice to just punch and go.

[Kimuji]

The life of an EM toon is a simple one: pop Build Up then TF+ EM. 😁

That being said I'm not totally dismissing that kind of mechanics but it would be a bonus. Something in addition to the core fixes. For now I think that making ET and FT functional with the standard Build Up power should be the priority. Adding some bells and whistles after that could be possible as long as it doesn't make the set OP.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Kimuji