Would it break the game to open 2nd tier Secondary power at creation?

[Garble]

Maybe there's reasons for it, but it always sat weird with me that it's one of the few places in the game where you MUST take a specific power. Primaries, Pools and Ancillaries all start with two options to choose. Now, I guess you could argue that when you choose a Secondary set you are also choosing the first power of that set. But it still means that for a lot of sets, you have to take a less than ideal power to get access to the rest of the set.

 

Defenders are probably the biggest losers here because if you're mixing attacks and support, you don't always need a fast recharging blast that does minor damage as part of your chain.

 

Invulnerability, Regeneration and Will Power all have Auto powers to start with, and I know some people feel auto powers are skippable in defense sets.

 

Then there are a few Support sets where the first power is a niche ability that isn't nearly as useful as the shields and heals that are the actual reason you wanted the set.

 

Is there some strong reason why Secondaries must start with a choice of one out of one?

[SwitchFade]

I believe this was answered by a Dev and that it is coded and not easy to undue (I want to say hard coded, but I fear hat is not the proper term)

[DR_Mechano]

3 minutes ago, Garble said:

Maybe there's reasons for it, but it always sat weird with me that it's one of the few places in the game where you MUST take a specific power. Primaries, Pools and Ancillaries all start with two options to choose. Now, I guess you could argue that when you choose a Secondary set you are also choosing the first power of that set. But it still means that for a lot of sets, you have to take a less than ideal power to get access to the rest of the set.

 

Defenders are probably the biggest losers here because if you're mixing attacks and support, you don't always need a fast recharging blast that does minor damage as part of your chain.

 

Invulnerability, Regeneration and Will Power all have Auto powers to start with, and I know some people feel auto powers are skippable in defense sets.

 

Then there are a few Support sets where the first power is a niche ability that isn't nearly as useful as the shields and heals that are the actual reason you wanted the set.

 

Is there some strong reason why Secondaries must start with a choice of one out of one?

Actually, sadly there IS a reason for it. Hide for Stalkers, for example is required for the AT to even function, if you get the option to skip it, it kind of gimps the AT. I do believe this was tried before but, rather unfortunately, led to major problems and apparently made the game go kind of wonky because it's kind of hard coded into the game (kind of in that the game starts to go funny if you change it, not in the sense that it is unchangeable).

Edited January 26, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Garble]

5 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Actually, sadly there IS a reason for it. Hide for Stalkers, for example is required for the AT to even function, if you get the option to skip it, it kind of gimps the AT. I do believe this was tried before but, rather unfortunately, led to major problems and apparently made the game go kind of wonky because it's kind of hard coded into the game (kind of in that the game starts to go funny if you change it, not in the sense that it is unchangeable).

I thought about Stalkers, but then I also thought about how Masterminds aren't forced to take pets which also gimps them. Plus this requirement existed before CoV and Stalkers.

 

If it's a coding/stability issue then that at least is a strong reason. 

[Vanden]

Game design-wise, it wouldn't break anything. CoH would still be perfectly functional if you could pick a t2 secondary on creation.

 

Programming-wise, absolutely. The game is not programmed to let you take your t2 at creation and has several measures in place to prevent it. That's not to say that it can't be done, but it's a big task with major potential to cause issues if not implemented perfectly.

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

I believe this was answered by a Dev and that it is coded and not easy to undue (I want to say hard coded, but I fear hat is not the proper term)

Hard coded is the term that was used:

 

[Outrider_01]

You pick the second attack

Now you are forced to slot it up to 5 if you want

 

Now you can pick something else such as a power pool

 

Where do you get the extra slots? You only get so many.

 

You choice= 2nd power or 5 slots else where

 

Kinda feels like you are forcing yourself to slot up the attack you now have to pick, when you don't have to slot  the first attack right now.  Slot that second, and pick something else "of your choice FOTM build" and where does the extra slots come from?  You now have 2 powers to slot, 5 more in the attack and another choice or stretching it out between all your powers to optimize your build. 

 

I would rather give up that first power in the /secondary in most sets, 5 slots have more value.

[oedipus_tex]

If it's hard coded then that's too bad and what it is.

 

I'm not worried about Stalkers and Hide though. Masterminds can skip their pets. That's far worse IMO. If some Stalkers want to gimp themselves (or, more likely, wait to take Hide until a higher level, which actually makes sense) then no worries.

[summers]

A less complex alternative could be to do a sweep over compulsory T1s and give them some reason to exist in an end game build?

[siolfir]

6 hours ago, summers said:

A less complex alternative could be to do a sweep over compulsory T1s and give them some reason to exist in an end game build?

After complaints about swapping many of the T1 and T2 powers during the initial round of Tanker changes caused a rollback (on the swaps), that was the decision moving forward, with the caveat that it wouldn't happen until after the Tanker changes were complete. They were just put in last week, and that caused a few other issues that are still being patched.

[ShardWarrior]

22 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

Hide for Stalkers, for example is required for the AT to even function, if you get the option to skip it, it kind of gimps the AT.

If someone would want to intentionally do this, why not let them? 

[Trickshooter]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

If someone would want to intentionally do this, why not let them? 

I think just because not everyone who would do it would necessarily know what they were doing.

 

Let's say you're walking to town and there's a fork in the road. And let's say that most people, you included, know that both roads lead to town, but one of them requires you to tightrope walk across a gorge. Occasionally, you're gonna get people who know this already but want do it anyway, just for the challenge. But you'll also end up with people who don't know this, taking this road and wondering why the *%$# this *%$#ing town is so *%$#ing hard to get to. 😡

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

I think just because not everyone who would do it would necessarily know what they were doing.

 

Let's say you're walking to town and there's a fork in the road. And let's say that most people, you included, know that both roads lead to town, but one of them requires you to tightrope walk across a gorge. Occasionally, you're gonna get people who know this already but want do it anyway, just for the challenge. But you'll also end up with people who don't know this, taking this road and wondering why the *%$# this *%$#ing town is so *%$#ing hard to get to. 😡

But that path is so gorge-ous!

[DR_Mechano]

20 minutes ago, siolfir said:

But that path is so gorge-ous!

BOO! GET OFF THE STAGE! *throws fruit*

 

But Trickshooter has a point though, not going to deny that.

Edited January 27, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Alchemystic]

 

19 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

If someone would want to intentionally do this, why not let them? 

I guess people can already play petless masterminds, right?

 

I suppose if this were to be implemented there would have to be some sort of archetype-specific guide or tutorial to draw attention to its mechanics, just to help new players.

 

On a similar note; would it break the game to lower the prequisite level for ancillary power pools to 32?

Edited January 28, 2020 by Tyrannical

[ShardWarrior]

20 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

I think just because not everyone who would do it would necessarily know what they were doing.

This is what respecs are for.  Part of learning the game is making mistakes which can later be corrected or fine tuned with the respec process.

Edited January 28, 2020 by ShardWarrior