Scale Knockback Chance,Not Just Magnitude, Across ATs

[oedipus_tex]

The game's design scales most secondary effects by magnitude. For example, the -ToHit in Dark Blast is lowest on Blasters and highest on Defenders. So it goes with -Defense, -Resist, -Damage, -Regen, +Heal, and -Recharge. For most of these effects, scaling the Magnitude makes sense and justifies taking the power on a Defender.

 

But for Knockback, although it scales, increased Magnitude does not substantially improve the power. It does help you overcome Knockback defense. But knocking enemies further back is not helpful. Proof of this is that when the Corruptor AT was created, all other effects were scaled, but its Knockback Magnitude was left identical to Blasters.

 

For this reason, I propose scaling knockback chance across ATs.

 

Specifically, because these powers already exist, and players are adusted to them, I'd recommend only applying this affect only to the AoEs, in case some players are annoyed by single target KB chance suddenly increasing. I'd also only apply it to powers with a base chance of around 40% or higher, so that we don't induce additional scatter.

 

For example, here is how the scaling would work for a power like Explosive Blast (AoE with a base 50% chance to KB):

• Blaster: (current base) ) : 50% chance
• Corruptor (add +25% from base) : 62.5% chance
• Defender (add +50% from base) : 75% chance

 

 

These numbers could be adjusted as needed. This is just a suggestion for a baseline.

Edited February 16, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Greycat]

Why should my energy baster have less chance of knockback - which I use defensively and/or as a soft control?  (Not to mention the thematic feel of a blast hitting an enemy so hard it sends them flying.)

 

Right now, I already *can* control my knockback - by positioning, by selectively reducing it by IOs, or by firing by above, turning KB into KD. Were this implemented, I'd have to reslot every KB using character with KB IOs, which would be highly annoying.

[Super Atom]

54 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Why should my energy baster have less chance of knockback - which I use defensively and/or trolling my team?  (Not to mention the thematic feel of a blast hitting an enemy so hard it sends them flying.)

 

fixed it for you

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

fixed it for you

No, you didn't. Just because *you* don't like it and/or have run into people who can't use it well doesn't mean it's useless. Please don't "fix" posts.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

No, you didn't. Just because *you* don't like it and/or have run into people who can't use it well doesn't mean it's useless. Please don't "fix" posts.

 

It's a relic of a coh that doesn't exist anymore. Don't pretend you're helping. Knocking enemies out of AOE's and breaking up mobs does nothing but slow it down. Even -if- you were using it to knock one or two runners back twords the mob, it'd still be better to just kill them. Every second you spend chasing runners to knock them back to mobs is seconds you don't spend just killing it. Stop pretending knockback isn't a negative and shouting at every post that tries to address it even in the slightest.

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Why should my energy baster have less chance of knockback - which I use defensively and/or as a soft control?  (Not to mention the thematic feel of a blast hitting an enemy so hard it sends them flying.)

 

Right now, I already *can* control my knockback - by positioning, by selectively reducing it by IOs, or by firing by above, turning KB into KD. Were this implemented, I'd have to reslot every KB using character with KB IOs, which would be highly annoying.

 

I don't understand your question. Energy Blasters already have a 50% chance to knockback with Explosive Blast. The only change is that Defenders and Corruptors would have a higher chance.

 

For all other blast sets, Defenders and Corruptors already deal stronger secondary effects. This is established in the archetype definition. Defenders should have stronger utility in their blasts. They just don't in the case of a few sets (mainly Energy Blast, Archery, and Assault Rifle, all of which are poised to benefit from this suggestion).

Edited February 16, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Greycat]

Just now, Super Atom said:

 

It's a relic of a coh that doesn't exist anymore. Don't pretend you're helping. Knocking enemies out of AOE's and breaking up mobs does nothing but slow it down. Even -if- you were using it to knock one or two runners back twords the mob, it'd still be better to just kill them. Every second you spend chasing runners to knock them back to mobs is seconds you don't spend just killing it. Stop pretending knockback isn't a negative and shouting at every post that tries to address it even in the slightest.

You have not played with me, quite obviously, here or on live.

 

Again.  You don't like it. Fine. That's your choice. It is not a universal truth that it's "a negative."

 

And what "shouting?" I've done nothing but post calmly. If you believe otherwise, notify a mod.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I don't understand your question. Energy Blasters already have a 50% chance to knockback with Explosive Blast. The only change is that Defenders and Corruptors would have a higher chance.

 

For all other blast sets, Defenders and Corruptors already deal stronger secondary effects. This is established in the archetype definition. Defenders should have stronger utility in their blasts. They just don't in the case of a few sets (mainly Energy Blast, Archery, and Assault Rifle, all of which are poised to benefit from this suggestion).

Misremembering the chance on my part, then. My apologies, carry on.

[Super Atom]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

You have not played with me, quite obviously, here or on live.

 

Again.  You don't like it. Fine. That's your choice. It is not a universal truth that it's "a negative."

 

And what "shouting?" I've done nothing but post calmly. If you believe otherwise, notify a mod.

 

I don't need to play with you to understand how knockback works.

 

Even if you position yourself very specifically in every mob to use knockback "effectively" which again, could literally only mean knocking runners back into teams, you've now become extremely useless because you could have just been doing damage or applying a actually useful form of CC. Trying to use knockback effectively is just leeching with extra steps.

 

If you'd like to explain what you mean by "Effectively" by all means go on

Edited February 16, 2020 by Super Atom

[Troo]

..and we're off.

 

In before the lock.

[Greycat]

No, we're not. I can see when someone's so against something they won't bother listening and is not worth attempting to discuss anything with. *shrug*

[Super Atom]

If you can't explain what you mean by effectively then don't toot your own horn about how cool you are.

[oedipus_tex]

I did a rundown of the sets and powers that would theoretically benefit from this. Again numbers are subject to adjustment.

 

And BTW I'd play the hell out of Defenders if they had these values and I knew I could get reliable knockback/down. 

 

 

ASSAULT RIFLE

• M30 Grenade
  • Blaster (current) : 50% 
  • Corruptor: 62.5%
  • Defender: 75%
• Buckshot
  • Blaster (current) : 50%
  • Corruptor: 62.5%
  • Defender: 75%

Comments: Overall this would transform this set totally for me and finally catch it up to the other Defender Blast sets in terms of the Defender role. Note comment below about extra Accuracy in these sets (AR is slightly more accurate than the average blast set).

 

 

ARCHERY

• Explosive Arrow
  • Blaster (current) : 50% 
  • Corruptor: 62.5%
  • Defender: 75%

Comments: This set needs more, honestly, but this is a start. The extra Accuracy in this set should probably be higher for Defender/Corruptor than Blaster since that is its "special thing" and currently its the same across ATs.

 

 

ENERGY BLAST

• Energy Torrent
  • Blaster (current): 60%
  • Corruptor: 75%
  • Defender: 90% (I. want. this. now.)

• Explosive Blast
  • Blaster (current) : 50%
  • Corruptor: 62.5%
  • Defender: 75%

Comments: See Assault Rifle.

 

 

DUAL PISTOLS

• Bullet Rain (only when activated)
  • Blaster (current) : 50%
  • Corruptor: 62.5%
  • Defender: 75%

 

Comments: This set needs the buff least, but its here for consistency. 

 

 

 

PSI BLAST

• Psionic Tornado
  • Blaster (current) : 50%
  • Corruptor: 62.5%
  • Defender: 75%

Comments: Please make this happen. Psinado is the most fun power ever, and if I could consistently flip enemies over in place I'd play nothing else. Psy Blast is is a lowish performing set for Defenders and Corruptors, and this would be a nice addition to make it stand out.

 

 

OTHER SETS

Water has an AoE knockdown, but it's chance is less than 40%, so not included in this suggestion.

 

Dark Blast and Sonic Attack have knockback powers, but the chance is already 100%, so are not included.

Edited February 16, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Super Atom]

This seems to imply you want stronger knock back on already undesirable sets. This would probably be a bad thing. Knock back is a negative effect way more then it's a positive effect.
 

Gonna have to be a strong no in my opinion. What i would like to see, and if done i wouldn't mind your suggestion, is things like energy blast that have knock back to be given a damage increase to reflect their negative modifier. While It's true you could just KB>KD the set, that's 9 slots used just to achieve it. Some things wouldn't need an increase in stat like Hurricane/Force bubble, but energy blast and gale for example should be beefed up to reflect their knockback.

 

 

Before anyone freaks out, I love energy blast. It just doesn't do the best damage while also having to deal with knock back.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Super Atom

[Wavicle]

23 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Trying to use knockback effectively is just leeching with extra steps.

Regardless of whether you're right or not, you come across as a self righteous jerk when you say stuff like this.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Wavicle said:

Regardless of whether you're right or not, you come across as a self righteous jerk when you say stuff like this.

 

I'm fine with that, you can only explain why knockback is more a negative than a positive so many times before you become a jaded self righteous jerk.

[oedipus_tex]

8 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

I'm fine with that, you can only explain why knockback is more a negative than a positive so many times before you become a jaded self righteous jerk.

 

People slot procs to add just a 20% chance to knockdown. The knockback in the blast sets typically exists in the 50-60% range. When you convert that to KD (if you wish--I generally do) you end up spending 1 slot to achieve roughly 2.5 times better effect than people slotting the KD proc. This would push that advantage even further.

 

Do you not agree there is utility in Energy Blast if Torrent had a 90% chance to knockback and Explosive Blast had 75%? Keep in mind people selecting sets with knockback in them agreed that the knockback effect was put there with the intent of mitigation. 

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

People slot procs to add just a 20% chance to knockdown. The knockback in the blast sets typically exists in the 50-60% range. When you convert that to KD (if you wish--I generally do) you end up spending 1 slot to achieve roughly 2.5 times better effect than people slotting the KD proc. This would push that advantage even further.

 

Do you not agree there is utility in Energy Blast if Torrent had a 90% chance to knockback and Explosive Blast had 75%? Keep in mind people selecting sets with knockback in them agreed that the knockback effect was put there with the intent of mitigation. 

 

I think increasing the knockback as (most) sets are now in any shape is a mistake. For every person who does do the correct thing and change their AOE/Cone to KD theres a lot who don't. Making an already hot issue worse is unwise.

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

I think increasing the knockback as (most) sets are now in any shape is a mistake. For every person who does do the correct thing and change their AOE/Cone to KD theres a lot who don't. Making an already hot issue worse is unwise.

 

Ok. I just  don't agree with you then.

 

The current value, 50% chance, means scatter. Pushing the value upward decreases scatter. If anything more consistency should make gameplay smoother. 

[Super Atom]

Just now, oedipus_tex said:

 

Ok. I just  don't agree with you then.

 

The current value, 50% chance, means scatter. Pushing the value upward decreases scatter. If anything more consistency should make gameplay smoother. 

 

The problem is knocking them away at all. Scatter isn't great but knocking them back further wouldn't help either. People get annoyed because knockbackers just throw the mobs around and make people miss their AoE's and mess up cones. Not to mention knocking out of debuffs or other patch based powers.

[Galaxy Brain]

@oedipus_tex, if this were to hypothetically go through on top of my KB damage proc idea, I'd need to alter it to include the chance as a factor  😛

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

..and we're off.

 

In before the lock.

These are my favorite threads.

[Haijinx]

This combines like two of my favorite thread types. 

 

Knockback flame war 

 

*and*

 

Pretending like COH is a game in Alpha/Beta and not an established game.  

 

So I want to /jranger the original suggestion. 

 

But stick around for the flying popcorn.    

[Leogunner]

18 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

It's a relic of a coh that doesn't exist anymore. Don't pretend you're helping. Knocking enemies out of AOE's and breaking up mobs does nothing but slow it down. Even -if- you were using it to knock one or two runners back twords the mob, it'd still be better to just kill them. Every second you spend chasing runners to knock them back to mobs is seconds you don't spend just killing it. Stop pretending knockback isn't a negative and shouting at every post that tries to address it even in the slightest.

And this is why we don't let the kids drive the bus.  

[Troo]

yep, i think all the ingredients are here. popcorn is ready.