crafting Yellow Salvage Prices

[Yomo Kimyata]

4 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Also, I once noticed some odd behavior on the market and mentioned it in a thread. That odd behavior turned out to be Yoko trying to flood rare salvage with supply to bring prices back down, which worked for a bit too. So your comment here is ignorant, blatantly untrue, and uncalled for.

A few months ago I bought many thousand rare salvage over a few weeks time (almost all at 5 inf higher than the previous low bidder)  and dumped them on the market.  Lost many billions, but got prices down to 100k and 10,000 bids.  At that point I stopped.  Prices came back up.

[Brutal Justice]

17 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'm going to offer one more time to explain how the AH works.  I think PM might be a better venue, but I'll be happy to post a really simple primer on the forums if that's better for you.  You clearly don't understand how bidding and offering works.  As to your example, I'm not buying toilet paper at $10 a package and selling it at $40.  I'm buying tp at $1 a package because somebody wanted to dump it on the market and didn't know or care that the market price was higher, and I'm selling it at $8 a package, which is still below market price.

 

Please don't call me names.  Devs don't like that and I'm not too fond of it either.

 

My wife buys Rae Dunn junk at home goods.  It’s $12 for a bird house.  Rae Dunn only supplies a specific amount of supply at one time.  Not limited edition.  Just limited supply at once.  

 

Another woman gets to the store early on shipment days and buys all of the bird houses at $12.  She relists those same bird houses at the local co-op shop for $20.  If my wife wants a Rae Dunn bird house she either has to be a crazy person and show up everyday at stocking time or she has to pay the $20 price the flipper has set.  This is a perfect real world example of what you’re doing.  The woman buying all of the bird houses is just greedy.  

 

The greedy woman has to pay a price to list the items at the co-op just like wentworth’s.  Money is coming out of the economy.  Is she doing the economy a favor?  No, she is being greedy and simply making money of off other people.  She is neither supplying supplies nor providing a service

 

*if you don’t know about Rae Dunn, consider yourself fortunate.  

[Obus Form]

3 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

First, not enough people use FIFO in day to day life. Love it.

 

I have no evidence to support this, but I suspect it is random... Also I tend to bid on converters 500-1000 at a time and the stacks don't always fill in order, or even a complete stack before moving to another one...

FIFO is on our school motto, please study hard @MunkiLord.  Btw welcome back!  You've been accepted into UFC on account of your generous donation of 100 billion.  Please enjoy your stay =).

 

Side note, my observation is the same as yours. I conjecture the same random bid filling idea

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

No farmer ever got a brute ATO to drop.  Not one.

no flipper ever created a Brute ATO out of thin air either.  A farmer could farm merits and get one.  A flipper could buy a random ATO, convert to a Brute ATO and mark the price up a huge amount. Quite easily the argument as to who is better for the players is the Farmer.  They create something, rather than just skim off other peoples work and drive prices up.

[Obus Form]

2 minutes ago, Snarky said:

no flipper ever created a Brute ATO out of thin air either.  A farmer could farm merits and get one.  A flipper could buy a random ATO, convert to a Brute ATO and mark the price up a huge amount. Quite easily the argument as to who is better for the players is the Farmer.  They create something, rather than just skim off other peoples work and drive prices up.

Are you saying...that the flippers are ni miserly?

Edited March 11, 2020 by Obus Form

[Brutal Justice]

36 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Look, you're allowed to be wrong. What flippers do is normalize the price. The floor is higher, but the ceiling is lower. 
 

To make you extra wrong you're comparing real real items with limited supply to digital goods with infinite supply. 

You’re also allowed to be wrong.  Flippers inflate prices.  Converters normalize prices by raising the floor and lowering the ceiling.  

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

no flipper ever created a Brute ATO out of thin air either.  A farmer could farm merits and get one.  A flipper could buy a random ATO, convert to a Brute ATO and mark the price up a huge amount. Quite easily the argument as to who is better for the players is the Farmer.  They create something, rather than just skim off other peoples work and drive prices up.

I guess prices are up if you ignore the extra supply for Brute ATOs. And ignore the massive amount of extra influence farmers generate.

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

You’re also allowed to be wrong.  Flippers inflate prices.  Converters normalize prices by raising the floor and lowering the ceiling.  

Which is exactly what flippers do as well. Also save people time, which is a cost that isn't as easy to measure. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

4 minutes ago, Obus Form said:

Are you saying...that the flippers are ni miserly?

Stop it...

[Brutal Justice]

18 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

So if those 100 bids weren't there, "artificially" creating demand, would as many people bother supplying said item at all?

Yes because said item, lotg, would still be more valuable than serendipity.  Converters would buy serendipity  for cheap and convert to lotg the same as they do now.  Driving the floor up on serendipity and driving down the ceiling on lotg.  

 

Its the artificial bids on lotg that drive the ceiling up on lotg and do nothing for the floor on serendipity 

[Brutal Justice]

24 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

 

Your price is too low then. HC has seeded the uncommon salvage at 100k. Thus, that's the "fair market price" as determined by this server's developers. Any price that the salvage may exist at below that level is a net benefit to the playerbase due to a larger number of farmers, but should not be expected. 

Also not true.  The market is lower than their seeded price because that is the actual supply and demand market.  Until recently none of that seeded supply was probably even touched.  They set a cap on the market.  They didn’t set the market value.  

[_NOPE_]

Alrighty folks, you have fun going around and around with this... Person. I'm out. 

[roleki]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

Yes because said item, lotg, would still be more valuable than serendipity.  Converters would buy serendipity  for cheap and convert to lotg the same as they do now.  Driving the floor up on serendipity and driving down the ceiling on lotg.  

 

Its the artificial bids on lotg that drive the ceiling up on lotg and do nothing for the floor on serendipity 

Good on you for trying, but you're never going to talk people into admitting their favored in-game activity is anything but harmful.  I mean, someone stated their "buy low, sell high!" strategy somehow gives others the gift of time.  

Fact of the matter is, they steal time from me.  I'm not paying their inflated prices, so I have to take time to roll my own.  That's not a fucking service.  

[Brutal Justice]

32 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Also, I once noticed some odd behavior on the market and mentioned it in a thread. That odd behavior turned out to be Yoko trying to flood rare salvage with supply to bring prices back down, which worked for a bit too. So your comment here is ignorant, blatantly untrue, and uncalled for.

Incorrect.  Several posts up he clearly states what he does.  Maybe he relisted  a bunch of salvage for cheap but I wasn’t responding to that.  In fact he hadn’t even mentioned that yet.  Do I need to make a quote for you?

[Obus Form]

18 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Alrighty folks, you have fun going around and around with this... Person. I'm out. 

Welcome @The Philotic Knight to UFC!  Your influential and linear logic has been touted throughout the land!  We welcome you to our elite group of ni misers should you ever wish to stay.  On behalf of the group, please accept this 100 billion as a small token of our thanks taken from the altruistic hands of the AFK group (AFK Farmers Kpop group).  We at UFC are excited to see your Influnece grow!

 

Sincerely,

UFC Board of Directors

Edited March 11, 2020 by Obus Form
Small

[Saikochoro]

1 hour ago, The Philotic Knight said:

 

Your price is too low then. HC has seeded the uncommon salvage at 100k. Thus, that's the "fair market price" as determined by this server's developers. Any price that the salvage may exist at below that level is a net benefit to the playerbase due to a larger number of farmers, but should not be expected. 

I would say the seeded price is more like MSRP than true market value. More often than not market value is less than MSRP, but still in the same realm. Though in some cases market value quickly rises above MSRP. 
 

The example that comes to my mind is the new Colt Python 2020. MSRP is 1500. Most of the stores offered it at MSRP (for the short window before they got back ordered to hell) as they knew they would easily be able to get that much for it. Though in time, when manufacturing begins to fill the huge over demand I would guess that the market value will settle a little below MSRP. 

 

I can kind of see where Sinister is coming from. In my Python example, I see second hand prices of the 2020 Python (not originals) going for 1700-2000 last time I checked because people are willing to pay to get it now. While I do think it’s a little crummy to buy something so high demand if you don’t actually want to keep it to only sell it for more, it is still a function of a free market. The flipper got the profit they wanted. The eager enthusiast got it now. 
 

Where my analogy falls apart is the going above MSRP. If Colt could produce enough of the 2020 Pythons from the get go nobody would be able to flip them as the ceiling would be set at 1500. That’s kind of what the seeded market is doing. They set an absolute ceiling and provided enough supply to prevent going over that. 
 

In either case though, when demand settles (with both yellow salvage and the new Pythons) I expect the prevailing market price to be below the ceiling. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Saikochoro

[_NOPE_]

I'll just drop this here on my way out:

 

https://wadewilson.livejournal.com/11285.html

[MunkiLord]

46 minutes ago, roleki said:

Good on you for trying, but you're never going to talk people into admitting their favored in-game activity is anything but harmful.  I mean, someone stated their "buy low, sell high!" strategy somehow gives others the gift of time.  

Fact of the matter is, they steal time from me.  I'm not paying their inflated prices, so I have to take time to roll my own.  That's not a fucking service.  

These inflated prices are all in your head. If you're spending too much time acquiring the enhancements you need, that is 100% your fault. Nobody else has any responsibility in that. 

 

Let's prove it. Send me your next build and let's see who can do it faster and cheaper. 

 

edit: If you're right in this challenge, I'll combine what both spent, triple it, and send you that amount of influence.

Edited March 12, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Brutal Justice]

6 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

These inflated prices are all in your head. If you're spending too much time acquiring the enhancements you need, that is 100% your fault. Nobody else has any responsibility in that. 

 

Let's prove it. Send me your next build and let's see who can do it faster and cheaper. 

That doesn’t prove that the prices are not artificially inflated by flippers.  

[Saikochoro]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

Good on you for trying, but you're never going to talk people into admitting their favored in-game activity is anything but harmful.  I mean, someone stated their "buy low, sell high!" strategy somehow gives others the gift of time.  

Fact of the matter is, they steal time from me.  I'm not paying their inflated prices, so I have to take time to roll my own.  That's not a fucking service.  

I completely understand where you are coming from.  I truly do understand that point of view. That said, I also completely understand the other point of view. 
 

When you really think about it, time is probably one of the most valuable resources we have. And time is one of the best products on the market. It is finite and ever in demand. 
 

I just posted my 2020 Python example. In my example, the flipper truly is selling time. It’s not a gift by any stretch of the imagination. It is a product. They are selling time as opposed to the 2020 Python. If I wanted to buy one first hand I’ll likely have to wait a year perhaps more. Or I can buy one second hand for $250-500 more. In that regard, the flipper is really just selling me time. 

 

It’s the same concept of interest. Money now is worth more than money later. That’s why when we want something now it is a higher price. 
 

Now, where I can see your point is the fact that if the flipper hasn’t bought that Python in the first place it would still have been on the market at 1500 and I might have been able to pick it up for that price. While technically true (and where I say it is a slightly crummy practice), the fact is, even without flippers, some items have enough demand that supply still can’t fill it. 
 

In this situation, even if every unit was bought at the MSRP, I still have small chance of getting one and thus have to wait. 
 

For example:

100 pythons made

1000 people want one - me included

100 people buy at MSRP - not including me because I’m not fast enough. 
 

I must now wait a long time (likely a year) before I can get one. 
 

Now let’s say 50 of those people resell their unit for a price premium of 250.  I now have an option. I can wait for supply to catch up and buy at MSRP. Or I can pay the flipper 250 to get it now. In this case, the flipper most certainly gave me the option (albeit at a price) of time. 
 

If all 100 of the people who bought at MSRP were enthusiasts and keep it, then I no longer have the option of time. And even if those 50 flippers didn’t get to it first, I’d still have to race 900 people to get one at MSRP. 
 

So, long story short, flippers do indeed give the people an option of time. However, it is not a gift as there is almost always a price premium since they are selling time. Not giving it. 

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Saikochoro

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, Saikochoro said:

 

So, long story short, flippers do indeed give the people an option of time. However, it is not a gift as there is almost always a price premium since they are selling time. Not giving it. 

 

Exactly, there is a cost for everything. 

 

Also I think it's important to note that while your comparison helps make your point, we're still talking about a finite good(2020 Python) vs something that is an infinite good(digital items). So your choice is to wait or pay more than you want, people in this game have a myriad of options. 

3 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

That doesn’t prove that the prices are not artificially inflated by flippers.  

Yes, that's not something any of us have the actual data to prove, and you know it. Also the point was about saving time and still getting items for a reasonable price, again you know that. Context is a thing. Do I need to make a quote for you?

[MTeague]

On 3/2/2020 at 11:30 PM, Heraclea said:

This is an excellent reason to hie thee to the AE and run some player created stories for tickets. 

As long as it's an actual player created story with an actual plot, and not "look more mobs that only do fire damage!"

If I could ask for ANY ONE change to AE search console, it would be the ability to find mission that do NOT contain the word "Farm" in either the title or the description.

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

As long as it's an actual player created story with an actual plot, and not "look more mobs that only do fire damage!"

If I could ask for ANY ONE change to AE search console, it would be the ability to find mission that do NOT contain the word "Farm" in either the title or the description.

I think better filters would be an excellent addition to AE

[Saikochoro]

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

Exactly, there is a cost for everything. 

 

Also I think it's important to note that while your comparison helps make your point, we're still talking about a finite good(2020 Python) vs something that is an infinite good(digital items). So your choice is to wait or pay more than you want, people in this game have a myriad of options. 

Yes, that's not something any of us have the actual data to prove, and you know it. Also the point was about saving time and still getting items for a reasonable price, again you know that. Context is a thing. Do I need to make a quote for you?

Very true. If I could buy a Taurus and use converter shenanigans to get a Python, then I wouldn’t be playing games I’d be on the range. 
 

Still I do think that the market value is less than seeded value for the most part. But it has been going up, as the topic of this thread proves, so maybe the seeded value will become the actual market value. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

10 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

I completely understand where you are coming from.  I truly do understand that point of view. That said, I also completely understand the other point of view. 
 

When you really think about it, time is probably one of the most valuable resources we have. And time is one of the best products on the market. It is finite and ever in demand. 
 

I just posted my 2020 Python example. In my example, the flipper truly is selling time. It’s not a gift by any stretch of the imagination. It is a product. They are selling time as opposed to the 2020 Python. If I wanted to buy one first hand I’ll likely have to wait a year perhaps more. Or I can buy one second hand for $250-500 more. In the regard, the flipper is really just selling me time. 
 

it’s the same concept of interest. Money now is worth more than money later. That’s why when we want something now it is a higher price. 
 

Now, where I can see your point is the fact that if the flipper hasn’t bought that Python in the first place it would still have been on the market at 1500 and I might have been able to pick it up for that price. While technically true (and where I say it is a slightly crummy practice), the fact is, even without flippers, some items have enough demand that supply still can’t fill it. 
 

In this situation, even if every unit was bought at the MSRP, I still have small chance of getting one and thus have to wait. 
 

For example:

100 pythons made

1000 people want one - me included

100 people buy at MSRP - not including me because I’m not fast enough. 
 

I must now wait a long time (likely a year) before I can get one. 
 

Now let’s say 50 of those people resell their unit for a price premium of 250.  I now have an option. I can wait for supply to catch up and buy at MSRP. Or I can pay the flipper 250 to get it now. In this case, the flipper most certainly gave me the option (albeit at a price) of time. 
 

If all 100 of the people who bought at MSRP were enthusiasts and keep it, then I no longer have the option of time. And even if those 50 flippers didn’t get to it first, I’d still have to race 900 people to get one at MSRP. 
 

So, long story short, flippers do indeed give the people an option of time. However, it is not a gift as there is almost always a price premium since they are selling time. Not giving it. 

 

 Very well spoken, and great analysis.

 

i would like to point out that a difference in our game v. your example is that in game, there is either directly or indirectly an infinite amount of goods.

 

Want yellow salvage?  You can play or farm for drops, exchange AE tickets.  Too much work?  There are 10mm of them for sale.  Too expensive?  Then you’re in a pickle and somethings got to give. 
 

Want LOTG 7.5%?  Plenty on the market.  Too expensive?  Buy a Serendipity and convert.  Still too expensive?  Buy or craft any lvl 25+ enhancement and convert.  Too much work?  Another pickle.

This game has limitless supply.  Except maybe Hammy is.