Weekly discussion 42: Scrappers!

[Murcielago]

The main issue with Scrappers is:

1. They're better than every other AT at everything. Damage? Got it. Survivability? On lock. Control? Death is the ultimate control.

2. They don't have Super Strength

Once Scrappers get Super Strength they will render all other ATs null and void. Might as well change the name of the game to "City of Scrappers."

[Chris24601]

One of my favorite things while I away and playing SWTOR as a pale substitute was the “gap closers” that each of the melee classes had. Most had options that would allow it be up as soon as you’d finished the previous fight; some cases instantly resetting as soon as you exited combat.

 

The point is, making Confront into that sort of ability and making exclusive to Scrappers could be as build defining an element for them as assassin’s strike/hide is for stalkers and the level 20 “sustains” are in the blaster secondaries.

 

I’d respec all my scrappers to pick up Confront if that change were made.

 

If you wanted to make it interesting you could give each set a variation on it.

 

Say electric melee version gets a super-fast recharge (but no secondary effects) so they can chain jump from target to target.

 

Energy melee might also knock the target down.

 

Fire melee could do a bit of AoE fire damage (as if you became a living fireball for a moment).

 

Dark could give you a few seconds of +defense because you’re still shrouded in shadow for a moment.

 

Street Justice might set your combo level to 3 as you charge in.

 

Et cetera.

 

* * * *

 

If I were to suggest a change to the scrapper inherent, I’d say leave the critical hits alone, but if it needs it, a stacking buff to regeneration, resist and/or defense (perhaps secondary set related?) to make it almost the inverse of Brutes (i.e. brutes attack to build damage, scrappers attack to build resilience).

 

Another change that might be needed is upping their resistance caps to maybe 80%; particularly if a change like the above were made.

 

* * * *

 

In terms of specific sets, my biggest gripe would be with Kinetic Melee; particularly when compared to say, Claws.

 

I compare the two because both get a 40’ ranged single target and cone attack and a gimmick version of build-up; and all three are better on the claws set.

 

Focus vs. Focused Burst: Focus is gained earlier (18 vs. 26), has better cast time (1.17s vs. 2s), better recharge (6.4s vs. 8s), better endurance cost (6.82 vs. 8.53) and even has better damage per cast time (81.76 vs. 56.45). The only place Focused Burst excels is raw damage (95.66 vs. 112.9).

 

Follow-Up vs. Power Siphon: Follow-Up is an actual attack with damage and cast time comparable to claws t1 attack (55.05 damage w. 0.83s cast time). With minimal slotting you can not only maintain a 100% uptime on it’s buff (10s duration, base 12s recharge), you can perma-double-stack it (total of +20% to-hit, +75% damage). Power Siphon, by contrast, isn’t an attack yet has more than double the cast time (1.93s) and its buff window lasts for 20s with a base 120s recharge. It also takes at least 3 hits in that window to match the performance of Follow-Up until those buffs wear off.

 

Shockwave vs. Repulsing Torrent: Torrent at least has the advantage of much earlier access (32 vs. 8 ) and better range (30 vs 40), but loses on cast time (1s vs. 2s) and arc (90 vs. 45 degrees). Torrent also has much higher knockback (6.23 vs. 1.45) which is actually a downside in the current meta. End cost, recharge and damage are otherwise comparable.

 

In short, Kinetic Melee plays like a slower and weaker version of Claws. Since Claws already has the quick activation/recharge niche filled, Kinetic Melee would benefit a LOT from buffing it’s damage per cast time to make it the freight train to Claws’ jackhammer.

[Dz131]

I would love a change in mechnics for the scrapper.  I'm sure everyone feels that just +numbers is a super boring way to balance something.  A charge mechanic would be nice, and it gives the scrapper the additional role of hunting down ranged / running units.  

[Murcielago]

2 hours ago, Dz131 said:

I would love a change in mechnics for the scrapper.  I'm sure everyone feels that just +numbers is a super boring way to balance something.  A charge mechanic would be nice, and it gives the scrapper the additional role of hunting down ranged / running units.  

What is a charge mechanic?

[Call Me Awesome]

9 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

What is a charge mechanic?

A means of quickly closing to melee range of your target, something that's common in melee classes in other games.  SWTOR has this with several classes doing an instant flying leap into combat from across the room.  Shield Charge, Lightning Rod and similar powers also have the same effect coupled with a large AOE attack... the discussion is to have a Scrapper get the "jump into melee from a distance" effect, likely in the Confront power, without the AOE damage.  Target baddie, hit Confront and teleport right into his face so you can tell him about his mother.

[Frosticus]

If you make confront similar to feral charge in movement ability that is more than enough of a buff. Taunt plus instant movement. If anyone has actually played savage assault they would know that feral charge completely changes the melee experience and makes combat considerably faster. It doesnt turn it up to 11, it turns it up to 15.

 

I'd say that combat teleport is more at home on stalkers but I get why scrappers would desire instant combat movement on a short cool down. It is amazing.

 

also lol @ tw instantly moving around and not having  to chase and lose momentum.

[Redlynne]

7 hours ago, Dz131 said:

A charge mechanic would be nice, and it gives the scrapper the additional role of hunting down ranged / running units.

So ... basically ... THIS ...?

 

 

On 3/16/2020 at 9:25 PM, Redlynne said:

         

 

[Zepp]

I was thinking about the charge mechanic being proposed to replace confront. First, I don't think it needs a taunt as Scrappers should remain on the DpS side of the DpS/Tank divide. I agree that most versions should not have damage, having a set-specific proc instead.

 

There are two issues I have. First, Elec and Savage already have something like this. Would they end up with two closers or get a different power? Second, in a TP revamp thread two of the proposed powers (a short range TP with +Def, and a chain TP attack). Would this step on too many toes? Also, Elec/Shield with the TP and jump pools could end up with six charge mechanic powers?

[Herotu]

On 3/16/2020 at 6:15 AM, Eldyem said:

I think the core issue is that we have 4 ATs who do very similar things

I always considered this to be the issue when Brutes appeared with CoV. Why? Because you couldn't have tanks or Scrappers on villain side (or Brute/Stalker on Hero side). We have too many archetypes that take up each others' roles because Villains needed a Tank/Scrapper equivalent.

 

Now, the way to solve this is to give them something that is unique. THis MAY involve bringing some "Condition" into the game that Scrappers are uniquely suited to cleanse. Whatever. That's how you make games - introduce a problem AND a solution.

 

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

I was thinking about the charge mechanic being proposed to replace confront.

Not replace.

Augment.

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

First, I don't think it needs a taunt

Remove the Taunt factor and you could "orphan" some builds that rely on that Taunt.  Since it's a single target Taunt, it's best to keep that factor in (pottery barn rule and all that ... you break it, you bought it).  ADDING things to a power is okay.  TAKING THINGS AWAY is usually not.

 

Besides, if you take away the Taunt factor then you lose the "I AM YOUR OPPONENT!" potential of Confront.

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

I agree that most versions should not have damage, having a set-specific proc instead.

Taunt sets and Universal Travel sets would suffice for a teleporting to $Target styled Confront power.

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

First, Elec and Savage already have something like this. Would they end up with two closers or get a different power?

Their gap closer powers do damage.

Confront would gap close with no damage.

Confront would not be an identical copy of the Electric and Savage powers.  Each would serve a different purpose, even if they have elements in common.

That way, you could use the Electric and Savage gap closers to attack Minions/Lieutenants and then follow that with the gap closer of Confront to get in the face of their Boss in just 2 moves/power activations, and grab the attention of the Boss (via Taunt).

 

Do HAVE TO do that?  No.

COULD you do that?  Sure.

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

Second, in a TP revamp thread two of the proposed powers (a short range TP with +Def, and a chain TP attack). Would this step on too many toes?

Confront = Teleport + Taunt

Combat Teleport (pool) = Teleport + Defense

Kill Skuls (pool) = Chain Teleport + Damage

 

Again, NOT copies.  If anything, Scrappers having Confront styled as a Teleport + Taunt power would mean that they wouldn't need to dip into the Teleport pool for that functionality and could therefore have 4 pools that are NOT the Teleport pool.  For some builds, that might be an important factor, being able to pick a 4th pool that isn't Teleport.

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

Also, Elec/Shield with the TP and jump pools could end up with six charge mechanic powers?

And if they do ... who FORCED them to pick all those powers?

You're also assuming that the Teleport pool options get implemented.  They very well might not.

[Frosticus]

I use confront to corner pull on my scrapper because I have no ranged attacks*

How would teleporting me into the middle of a spawn help?

 

Also jaunt will be a good combat teleport when it reaches live and any scrapper can take that.

 

*I dont personally but I'm sure some do. 

 

 

[Zepp]

@Redlynne
You make a good point about the 12% of scrappers that currently take confront. I was talking about what I thought would be best, not what I thought was the most viable path forward.

 

Second, I think set-specific procs -end for elec, DoT for fire, - recharge for ice, +momentum for Titan, etc. would add flavor and utility.

 

In terms of my pointing out about existing and proposed closers, I was just stating the chance for things in certain fringe builds to get out of hand. This may be especially problematic for PvP. I was suggesting some issues which may occur, not assuming or opposing the proposal.

[Redlynne]

12 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I use confront to corner pull on my scrapper because I have no ranged attacks*

How would teleporting me into the middle of a spawn help?

To be fair, when I played a MA/SR Scrapper on Virtue, I did this as well.  Sometimes it's better to fight on YOUR ground, rather than on your OPPONENT'S ground.

 

Simplest solution I can offer to this problem would be to use the "power opens other power" system we see with Kheldian Forms (which allow the sub-powers to be slotted) or with the Origin Pools movement powers (like Mystic Flight which do not allow the sub-power to be slotted).  That way, you'd have two versions of Confront ... one that teleports to $Target and one that doesn't so as to be able to corner pull.  Set them up in such a way that activating one initiates the recharge on both ... or just increase the recharge timer on both (because you can use 2 instead of just 1) and you're good.

13 minutes ago, Zepp said:

You make a good point about the 12% of scrappers that currently take confront. I was talking about what I thought would be best, not what I thought was the most viable path forward.

Ah ... you fell into the trap of what you think is best (so to speak), while discounting the value that others may have invested into the power.  This is why it's nice to think about what is "best" while remaining mindful that you MUST account for the most viable path forward.

15 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Second, I think set-specific procs -end for elec, DoT for fire, - recharge for ice, +momentum for Titan, etc. would add flavor and utility.

It would add flavor, but it's a whole extra layer of factors to account for (and QA for and test for).  If anything, those kinds of mods would fall more in line with Quality of (get a) Life for Scrappers.  The problem is, as soon as you give those to Scrappers, I can guarantee that the very next thing you're going to hear is Brutes doing Knockback on your door to get the same things proliferated over to them (because ... reasons).

17 minutes ago, Zepp said:

This may be especially problematic for PvP.

Which is why playtesting is necessary.  To be fair, though ... PvP is its own problem.  I'm of the opinion you need to get the PvE RIGHT FIRST and then worry about PvP (and tweak for PvP if needed) afterwards.  Lead with PvE and finish with PvP, as far as those kinds of concerns are weighted.

[GM Miss]

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