Change +Max Health into Absorb (and add more Absorb powers)

[Galaxy Brain]

If we wanna talk about absorb more broadly I'm all ears. I think the issue we have now is that we're trying to treat absorb as temp HP without the means to really leverage it.

 

The attached screenshot is the Shields (blue) and Health (Red) UI from Borderlands 3. That game has essentially CoH absorb as a core mechanic via the shield items you can equip,  on top of our resistance, regen, additional HP (and shields), and even forms of our defense that arent just getting out of the way via actual RNG like we have. 

 

The difference here is that shields (absorb) is treated as an actual semi-permanent layer of HP that is there until damaged, and the  there is a delay for when  it can come back. In CoH, absorb has a time limit even if you are undamaged making it behave much differently and more like a pseudo-heal, outside the powers that grant refreshing absorb. Those powers grant small, stacking bonuses that only last a short while and act more like a damage barrier where you have to deal more than X flat amount to actually harm the character, which is a different mechanism all together. 

 

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

It does not adjust regeneration rate, it only adjusts regeneration amount. 

 

As for new players, I'm not sure how well they would understand absorb compared to other health mechanics. I am fairly knowledgeable about the mechanics of the game and wrote a tool on survivability, but still hadn't fully understood the absorb mechanic until I played extensively with Bio this past week. I still dont understand it well enough to incorporate it into the tool, but maybe soon.

 

I like the absorb mechanic, but not more so than what the other mechanics bring to the table (I like them all fairly equally). What I really like is how all 3 mechanics (regen, maxHP, and absorb) can play between each other. But I digress. That's a separate discussion not pertinent to your suggestion.

Let me know your results, because if the numbers say that Absorb is vastly inferior to +Max Health, then I'll consider this thought experiment a bit of a failure and wrap it up here.

But if that's the case, I think I'd like to see Absorb powers incorporated into powersets via different means as not to encroach on the effectiveness of +Max Health, and instead find a way for them to compliment each other without being OP.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

Let me know your results, because if the numbers say that Absorb is vastly inferior to +Max Health, then I'll consider this thought experiment a bit of a failure and wrap it up here.

I can run stuff in a bit... but the short answer is it depends on the combo of players, and mainly due to the +HP buffs from allies. 

 

If say, a scrapper uses Dull Pain, has a +HP accolade and some +HP set bonuses, they are awfully close to the cap as is and would definitely not benefit from an ally's Hoarfrost.

[Alchemystic]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I can run stuff in a bit... but the short answer is it depends on the combo of players, and mainly due to the +HP buffs from allies. 

 

If say, a scrapper uses Dull Pain, has a +HP accolade and some +HP set bonuses, they are awfully close to the cap as is and would definitely not benefit from an ally's Hoarfrost.

I think Frostwork is the only ally targeted +MaxHP power, right? 

[Galaxy Brain]

Oh, it might be.... 🤔

 

I thought there were more, if no then yeah all the self +HP tools should stay +HP. But that should def be +Absorb.

[Frosticus]

On a different note, I wish the damage I receive when absorbed would take on a different colour than red.

It seems strange to me to take a big hit and see big damage numbers, but my health doesn't budge.

 

Ideally it would color shift the closer you are to taking actual damage. 

 

Also, I'm fine with +hp powers, I like that dull pain is a big heal and also a big padding. I know absorb can function in a similar manner, but you may well end up with your absorb bar higher than your health bar, but it still appears that you are quite injured. I don't like that personally.

 

I'd rework frostworks into something with absorb and maybe something else to go with it. 

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

Let me know your results, because if the numbers say that Absorb is vastly inferior to +Max Health, then I'll consider this thought experiment a bit of a failure and wrap it up here.

But if that's the case, I think I'd like to see Absorb powers incorporated into powersets via different means as not to encroach on the effectiveness of +Max Health, and instead find a way for them to compliment each other without being OP.

I'd be happy to analyze it, but there are so many variables I wouldn't know where to begin. Like Galaxy Brain mentioned, there are outside sources that could buff HP (like Destiny or Frostwork?), set bonuses to consider, etc.

 

The other things to consider are on the Absorb side. The Preventative Medicine proc can grant you 10% randomly. Someone can cast Spirit Ward on you for I think 20%. The Tank ATO has an absorb proc as well. Basically, what I'm getting at, you can hit your 100% Base HP very quickly with increased values in your MaxHP and the assortment of Absorb shields handed out. So I think of it like this: Absorb adds more temporary HP and MaxHP powers that you listed add more temporary HP, so having both is good...removing one is bad.

 

Let's try some math to illustrate what I mean:

A tank has base HP of 1874 HP, so that's its max absorb cap. If you have no +HP bonuses, then it will require 100% Absorb shield to hit 1874 HP cap.

 

If you are a tank with capped HP (3534 HP), then to hit your capped absorb shield of 1874 would require only 53% absorb to hit the cap (3534*0.53 = 1874). So not only is it easier to hit the cap, you also have the extra HP as a double bonus. Afterall, what's better: having 3748 damage to kill you and requiring the full 100% absorb, or having 5408 Damage to kill you and requiring only 53% absorb?

[Galaxy Brain]

54 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If you are a tank with capped HP (3534 HP), then to hit your capped absorb shield of 1874 would require only 53% absorb to hit the cap (3534*0.53 = 1874).

Not sure if this is how it works? If so, that seems... off. 100% absorb should always be the cap which is max base hp

[Bopper]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

Not sure if this is how it works? If so, that seems... off. 100% absorb should always be the cap which is max base hp

Most absorb powers work off your max HP, with a cap of your base HP. So let's use Ablative Carapace as an example. It provides a 30% Absorb, with a 6-slot of Preventative Medicine (+97.49% after E.D.), the Absorb will do ~59.25%.

 

If you have max HP equal to your base HP (no + max HP bonuses anywhere in your build), then Ablative Carapace will give you a shield equal to 59.25% your AT's base HP. In the case of the tanker, it is ~1110 HP shield.

 

If you have max HP equal to 180% of your base HP (+80% HP bonuses in your build), then Ablative Carapace will give you a shield equal to 106.64% your AT's base HP - which gets capped to 100%. So for a tanker, this is a max HP of 3373.4 HP, and it will grant an absorb shield of 1874 HP.

 

This basically is why I argue the preference to leave things as is, as a change to using only Absorb would likely hurt most builds... or at the very least requires those builds to go through a large redesign.

[Sarrate]

9 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

However, since it's easier to see when you get temporary hit points from Absorb (the silver bar) than it is for +Max Health (no visual change) I propose that for the purpose of click powers that we replace +Max Health with Absorb or Absorb over Time.

A little bit of a tangent, but I personally find the ablative bar to be pretty difficult to see. Ideally, there would be another bar or - even better - some decoration on the border of the life bar to make it very clear where the ablative is. I understand the difficulty in changing the code, so I'm not holding my breath, but I never liked the ablative coloration.

 

17 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Most absorb powers work off your max HP, with a cap of your base HP. So let's use Ablative Carapace as an example. It provides a 30% Absorb, with a 6-slot of Preventative Medicine (+97.49% after E.D.), the Absorb will do ~59.25%.

 

If you have max HP equal to your base HP (no + max HP bonuses anywhere in your build), then Ablative Carapace will give you a shield equal to 59.25% your AT's base HP. In the case of the tanker, it is ~1110 HP shield.

 

If you have max HP equal to 180% of your base HP (+80% HP bonuses in your build), then Ablative Carapace will give you a shield equal to 106.64% your AT's base HP - which gets capped to 100%. So for a tanker, this is a max HP of 3373.4 HP, and it will grant an absorb shield of 1874 HP.

 

This basically is why I argue the preference to leave things as is, as a change to using only Absorb would likely hurt most builds... or at the very least requires those builds to go through a large redesign.

Wait, seriously? Absorbs scale with your current max hp, not base? That seems broken. I'm not saying broken as necessarily "unbalanced," but more "unexpected.

 

As far as I'm aware, all player based heals heal for a flat amount. This includes self heals (Healing Flames) as well as healing others (Cauterize). It doesn't matter if the caster or the recipient's max hp is raised or lowered, the heals are always constant.

 

I figured that they could operate off a percent (see NPCs like the tower repairmen and Immuno Surgeons (sp?)), but were intentionally not made to scale.

 

Very strange.

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

A little bit of a tangent, but I personally find the ablative bar to be pretty difficult to see. Ideally, there would be another bar or - even better - some decoration on the border of the life bar to make it very clear where the ablative is. I understand the difficulty in changing the code, so I'm not holding my breath, but I never liked the ablative coloration.

 

Wait, seriously? Absorbs scale with your current max hp, not base? That seems broken. I'm not saying broken as necessarily "unbalanced," but more "unexpected.

 

As far as I'm aware, all player based heals heal for a flat amount. This includes self heals (Healing Flames) as well as healing others (Cauterize). It doesn't matter if the caster or the recipient's max hp is raised or lowered, the heals are always constant.

 

I figured that they could operate off a percent (see NPCs like the tower repairmen and Immuno Surgeons (sp?)), but were intentionally not made to scale.

 

Very strange.

I also assumed it worked off base HP until recently I was trying to figure out why my absorb bar barely moved when I applied Parasitic Aura after Ablative Carapace. I thought it might have been replacing the absorb, but came to find out my Ablatice nearly had me at cap because it turns out it used max HP.

 

I saw this in Beta too when I was testing Electrical Affinity and was comparing its Absorb power, Insulating Circuit, with Sorcery's Spirit Ward. I cast them on a Brute and verified that the Insulating Circuit is a fixed sized Absorb shield (same for every AT), wheras the Spirit Ward used the max HP of the target to calculate its Absorb shield size. I dont know which powers use the target's MaxHP and which use the castor's (if a buff power) fixed value. I dread having to track all that down.

[AgentForest]

9 hours ago, Joshex said:

given that +MaxHP came first, it was available as a consideration when absorb powers were made. so timing has nothing to do with it

Not entirely true.  When the game launched, there was no framework for Absorb as a mechanic to even exist.  Essentially, absorption was free temporary HP, and that's what most +HP moves do (unless they are auto powers).  Most MMOs have barrier mechanics that have to be broken before hurting someone's HP.  It's a pretty normal thing these days.  So it's only natural they tried adding it as a new mechanic.

Having done so, they often threw regeneration effects in with it on purpose, seemingly to make it a functional replacement that more thematically encompasses what +HP was always meant to do.  They gave it the regen effect in most cases as a way to make up for how increasing one's HP increases regen indirectly.  So the devs clearly did have some intention of it being "the new +HP."  But the game was shut down very shortly after adding this effect to the game, so there was never any time to rework some of the ideas into the older powers.  They could have made Dull Pain into an Absorb +Regen power.  Though I'm sure any passives that increase HP would be left alone, as passive Absorb is a weird mechanic to make work.  Plus, such a change to Dull Pain would likely also reduce the cooldown, as the absorption powers are usually more frequent, like Reconstruction.  This could end up being a net buff if done properly.

[Galaxy Brain]

So, I was curious how Absorb and Max Hp compare, so let's look at Dull Pain as an example.

 

Dull Pain grants +40% Max HP for 120s. This allows you to directly take 40% more damage, as well as boosts your regen ticks (not speed) by 40% for 120s. It recharges in 360s.

 

A character with 1000 hp will gain 400 hp from this, and go from regenerating 50 hp every 12 sec to regenerating 70hp/12s (assuming no other regen boosts). So not only are you gaining 400 extra hp for 120s, but at base you are getting 10 ticks of 20 extra regenerated health (200) for a total of 600 added HP for the duration. If this were a flat regen buff, youd have to tick 14 times in 120 sec, which may still equate to a 40% faster rate but iirc the math for regen boosts is weird and it's late lol.

 

So the regen value is easy enough to emulate with a straight boost to regen rate. An absorb shield for 40% of your hp is then still not equal as it will simply not last the full 120s that the bonus 400 hp would. The HP boost is there to stay even if you take 400 damage, while the absorb is gone once it's gone and cannot be healed in any way. Since it is so temporary, it may be best to compare it to the uptime of Dull Pain. 120s duration/360s recharge gives an uptime of 33%. Apply that to the 400 bonus HP and we are left with 132 average health boost. So, in theory you would need an Absorb layer worth about 13% of base hp to be constantly applied to be roughly equal to dull pain's lingering HP boost at base, ignoring Regen. 

 

Let's say we use the enhanced Dull Pain with 80% health and a 180s recharge. That is an extra 800 base hp, an extra 400 healed over time for a total of 1200. The 800 has an uptime of 67%, so that averages to 536, or a constant 54% absorb shield.

 

Ignoring the interplay between hp and absorb as mentioned prior, you'd need values similar to what I've described to be constantly active to compete with Dull Pain and its clones in terms of raw mitigation over time. Though the 50% may seem rather extreme, unless it was a 25% base power that could be refreshed at a 100% rate with 3 SO's worth of slotting.

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Let's say we use the enhanced Dull Pain with 80% health and a 180s recharge.

Only 50% of dull pain is enhanceable, so I think you should be using 60% health in your example. The heal will be 80% though (assuming 100% enhancement, 95% is probably more fair, putting it at 59% max HP and 78% Heal). 

[Monos King]

16 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

An absorb shield for 40% of your hp is then still not equal

Can you even do that right now? What's the absorb cap, I know it's not all that.

 

@Tyrannical

Granted it could be changed, but this seems like a lot just to update powers for conceptual reasons; especially when doing so without theoretically harming their efficiency in the HP -> Absorb transfer involves large ticks of re-applied absorb that isn't really thematically appropriate to begin with.

 

I'm really all for keeping HP powers the way they are now. Let's not forget you can hasten the reapplication of simple HP buffs through healing, whereas separate absorbs hardly overlap and can only be strengthened through another +absorb. 

 

What I'm saying is, if I cast frostwork on a pet for instance, I can have it maintain the benefit through simple healing. I can heal the increased health. But if frostwork were an absorb with +regen and an absorb over time tick, once that absorb gets blown off I can't really do anything to give back the benefit. The best I could do is wait the downtime to recast the buff.

 

All of that is assuming the new frostwork operated like Spirit Bastion, where the absorb doesn't stack. If the absorb did stack, and eventually climbed up to the initial absorb buff, this would be a straight buff.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Monos King
Tag

[Joshex]

18 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

There is definitely a mathematical element to it which calculates a suitable exchange, which is what I'm looking to explore.

 

How much absorb (or absorb over time) would be required to match the standard +Max Heath values of the powers above?

 

I'm not looking reduce the effectiveness of these powers, but create a version of them that is more transparent in its value.

ok lets see, I can't give you any concrete numbers but I can get you equations which will produce illustrative numbers and when you fill them in with real numbers from in game or mids you can calculate it very close to perfect. it's simple; compare the abilities allowed with each.

 

so +HP gives you actual HP which can be healed and you can reuse it by regenerating it. so in total it has 3 abilities. even though 2 abilities are latent or "inherited" from other game mechanics they still apply because +Absorb does not grant reusability such as ability to heal the HP or regen it.

 

so roughly,

Absorb: 1/3rd +HP

so 1 Absorb for every 0.3333333333334... HP. if +HP yields 1000, Absorb has to yield 3000 to be roughly equal. however this does not take into account the nature of the heal and regen abilities or the time in which they can be applied. the number of absorb will have to go up even further to account for time the power is active and scale by the amount of total healing and regen that could theoretically be done in that time via self and team etc.

 

as regen happens once per tick which is once per 3 seconds,  you then need the AT regen cap as a number of HP (MIDS), you then know exactly at maximum how much regen you could gain over the time the power is active. simple addition 1000 + total regen over active time.

 

Healing is a tough one, you have to consider the powerset's potential self +healing at max. then add that to just your own heal ability in the sets,  the part where it would account for just the powerset itself would be the unenhanced value to add, you have to account for the max damage that could be applied as well during the recharge time of your heal powers. that lets you know how much of the original 1000 HP can be healed when the next tick comes, no damage means no heal. but yeah there's likely to be damage.

 

lets say you alone can heal yourself for +1200 every 5 minutes. lets say you can take more than that in damage in 5 minutes (we only count upto the max HP that would normally be maintained so we don;t include any damage beyond that value), lets say the power is only active for 3 of those 5 minutes. that means you can only heal yourself once in the given time. so unhenhanced becomes 1000 + total unenhanced regen over time in 3 minutes (lets say 10 points per second at LV50 so 30 points per tick, (3*60)*30=5400 ) + 1200 = +7600 Absorb

 

so after a more clean assessment 1000 + Max HP on click is more closely roughly equal to +7600 Absorb. (based on our example, each set will have to be calculated independently)

 

absorb over time, absorb on a per tick basis (every 3 seconds) for X time. here the basis will be division of our previous number to the number of ticks possible within the time limit with some adjustments. one adjustment being the amount of +HP you would get may be different (not 1000 this time), and the longer the power is active the more you could potentially be healed in that time. as well as the higher number of regen you'd incur.  lets say it's active for 15 minutes, we know you can normally heal yourself every 5 minutes (according to our previous example, this is just an example, not concrete you'd need to calculate each set independently) that means you can heal 3 times in the time the power is active. and according to our example that'd be to the toll of 1200 *3 (3600), however we have to consider how much of that heal could be accepted. based on how much +HP over time you got and how much damage you could feasibly take over time (MIDS is a good tool). lets say 30 points per tick, so 1800 a minute for 15 minutes = 27000 in 15 minutes we'll say you could again take all that damage 3 times over just for ease of clean numbers (you'd need to find something more exact). so then you'll be able to heal it 3 times for 1200, so here our heal falls short at 3600 vs 27000, but with regen matching it at 30 per tick, suddenly now our number almost doubles, 57600 total, / 15 / 60 = 64 Absorb per second or 192 Absorb per tick for absorb over time.

 

these are some math examples, you can apply these equations to your set and figure out the potential. again I glanced over damage over time and such, so none of these numbers are real, they are only for illustrative purposes. but the equations stand.

 

I still have to vote no though. powers with absorb are that way for a reason, powers with +hp are superior and are that way for a reason.

[Alchemystic]

@JoshexI'm glad to see you took the time to come up with some pretty conclusive numbers! Not everyone would go out of their way to present facts, so kudos!

 

With that in mind, I would probably suggest that since Absorb scales with MaxHP as you said that we explore that interaction by adding Absorb to powersets that have a +MaxHP power (if it permits), as well as a few other powersets that might also benefit from it.

 

Though as @Galaxy Brainsaid, Frostwork having +MaxHP can be pointless, so that is certainly a candidate for this change at least.

[Joshex]

9 hours ago, AgentForest said:

Not entirely true.  When the game launched, there was no framework for Absorb as a mechanic to even exist.  Essentially, absorption was free temporary HP, and that's what most +HP moves do (unless they are auto powers).  Most MMOs have barrier mechanics that have to be broken before hurting someone's HP.  It's a pretty normal thing these days.  So it's only natural they tried adding it as a new mechanic.

Having done so, they often threw regeneration effects in with it on purpose, seemingly to make it a functional replacement that more thematically encompasses what +HP was always meant to do.  They gave it the regen effect in most cases as a way to make up for how increasing one's HP increases regen indirectly.  So the devs clearly did have some intention of it being "the new +HP."  But the game was shut down very shortly after adding this effect to the game, so there was never any time to rework some of the ideas into the older powers.  They could have made Dull Pain into an Absorb +Regen power.  Though I'm sure any passives that increase HP would be left alone, as passive Absorb is a weird mechanic to make work.  Plus, such a change to Dull Pain would likely also reduce the cooldown, as the absorption powers are usually more frequent, like Reconstruction.  This could end up being a net buff if done properly.

I'm going to have to call you on reversing cause and effect. Mad science! "the moon does not control the tides, the tides control the moon!"

 

absorb may not have been there at launch but +Max HP was there when absorb was launched. This means that the Dev team was fully aware of what +HP meant when they designed +Absorb. the fact they designed it different was a purposeful action, it allowed them to add a psuedo+HP effect yet leave room in the power or set for extra abilities due to the lack of being able to heal or regen it..  the trade was purposeful, sets that have absorb benefit from additional abilities that could not be afforded in a +MaxHP set.

 

the only way your argument could work is if they were either launched parallel to eachother and thus not neither was fully tested in real gameplay so then it'd be upto players to decide if one of them was bad, OR if Absorb came first and +HP was some newfangled thing you could find fault with. (because the suggestion here is to replace those nasty +HP powers with what you feel is superior Absorb abilities)

 

neither of these are true.

 

they are not equal. absorb +regen would be comical. your regen would not happen until the absorb wears off. but if it's on the same power then by the time the absorb wears off the regen cannot activate because the power is now inactive. you cannot reegen absorb points! thats what makes it INFERIOR to +HP and allows extra space for other abilities in the set. Absorb is a weaker power skill, so they can add other things in the power and set to make up for it. and they did.

[AgentForest]

Joshex, your argument doesn't really make sense.  You seem to be the one saying the tides control the moon here.  I'm simply looking at the development process as it has played out.

New mechanics were added, and in their addition, old mechanics that did similar things just sorta stopped being used.  +HP was implemented before the game had the ability to add temporary HP to a character through absorb barriers.  It was the same idea, but more awkward because those temporary HP were capable of being healed, which doesn't actually make logical sense.  If I dull the pain I'm receiving, I'm not actually increasing my hit points.  I'm merely shrugging off more of the damage.  I'm ignoring some of it.  Like a barrier would provide.  But the game engine didn't allow for temporary barriers until years later.  Nearly a decade later.  WoW came out within a year of CoH, and this mechanic was known from its beta, so I doubt the CoH team hadn't heard of it.  But their engine didn't allow for shields like that.  So they made due with a work-around.  The weird part of this work-around was that it meant that "shield" could be healed and regenerated.  It also had some collateral of causing a regen boost because regeneration in this engine is based on max HP.

The fact that when the game finally DID incorporate Absorb shields, they almost entirely stopped providing +HP powers says something.  You may not want to admit it, but it's true.  They fixed the issue with the engine, and had finally worked out a way to do what those powers used to provide more clumsily through +HP.

 

---

 

That being said, pretty much every +HP click move could easily be replaced with an Absorb, +Regen, lower cooldown move.  The whole point of dulling pain was to reduce the impact of large hits, and letting people do this through a barrier just makes more logical and mechanical sense.  Auto-powers still make more sense being +HP instead of Absorb though, as they are passive, and thus constant.  If it's constant, it should be an HP increase, because HP is supposed to be constant.  In an RPG, max HP is supposed to be more static.  It's not really meant to dramatically change from minute to minute.  Even in games that have HP buffs (like Blessing of Fortitude in WoW), they tend to be very long-term buffs, or permanent character stat changes as passives.  Having a button press decide that you are now 40% more person than you were before, short of growing in size, doesn't really make sense.  If you want the same effect from a more logically consistent set of effects:

Absorb
+Regeneration
+Resist (all)

That would be functionally identical, minus the "healing a barrier" mechanic that +HP has that makes no sense.  However, splitting +HP into those 3 effects would allow for more fine-tuned balance fixing of powers, and allow for more thematic implementation of such powers.  Perhaps the version of Dull Pain that Regen Scrappers get offers greater +Regen, but the Dull Pain that Invulnerability Tankers get offers more Resistance and Absorb.  Perhaps Earth's Embrace is just tons of Resistance with a weaker Regen boost.  Maybe Hoarfrost is more Absorb than regen/resist.  Then the cooldown on those powers could be adjusted to how situational it is and how often such a move is needed for that set to function well.

There's a lot that could be done to update these older powers, and the only complaint I see about doing it is, "No, I'm used to doing things the old way."  Okay, fine preference I guess, but that doesn't actually contribute any real balance or readability assistance to the conversation.  It doesn't address the clear design direction that had happened ever since Absorb was added as a mechanic.  It's just arbitrary personal preference to keep it as is.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Joshex, I like that breakdown but I think attributing reason to how or why certain powers were implemented will forever be a guessing game as the game was axed very soon after the first bit of absorb went live. We simply do not know if there were intentions to explore the mechanic even further either by tweaking it or adding it to more sets.

 

That said, I wanna touch on the benefits of absorb compared to HP.

 

Firstly, Absorb gets much more useful the closer you are to max HP anyways, since it let's you actually go beyond the max even if temporarily. An invuln tank with Dull Pain running + hp bonuses will get a huge amount of mileage out of an absorb layer cast on them that stacks with all their defenses. 

 

Secondly, the handful of powers which do have a regenerating absorb shield act as a very unique "Negation" layer. For example, a character with an absorb layer of 120 every 3 seconds effectively has a barrier of 40dps in order to actually hurt them at all.

 

 

 

What is lacking in this game though are interactions with this shield that we see in many other games (Such as Borderlands Shields) that play off having the secondary HP as a true resource. The easiest example is having the shield be heal-able in some fashion, or have conditions such as "Bonus resist if you have absorb" and so on. As is, given it is just another layer of temp HP in the most basic sense it's best use is to layer on top of already high HP to bypass traditional HP caps. Beyond that, the most interesting use is to grant characters a refreshing layer of "raw anti damage". Hell, it doesn't even have to be refreshing, it'd be interesting to have a small layer of absorb that refreshes and goes away as fast as possible to truly have a -Damage barrier.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[WindDemon21]

Definitely vote no, especially since the devs never figured out how to properly implement it, ie should have the same values/recharges as heal powers since that's exactly what it is, just a pre-heal. If you want to instead, suggest that it does absorb, instead of the heal portion, keeping that max health, I would be indifferent to that.

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Joshex, I like that breakdown but I think attributing reason to how or why certain powers were implemented will forever be a guessing game as the game was axed very soon after the first bit of absorb went live. We simply do not know if there were intentions to explore the mechanic even further either by tweaking it or adding it to more sets.

 

That said, I wanna touch on the benefits of absorb compared to HP.

 

Firstly, Absorb gets much more useful the closer you are to max HP anyways, since it let's you actually go beyond the max even if temporarily. An invuln tank with Dull Pain running + hp bonuses will get a huge amount of mileage out of an absorb layer cast on them that stacks with all their defenses. 

 

Secondly, the handful of powers which do have a regenerating absorb shield act as a very unique "Negation" layer. For example, a character with an absorb layer of 120 every 3 seconds effectively has a barrier of 40dps in order to actually hurt them at all.

A unique argument then:

 

I believe it's been demonstrated that having both +absorb and +HPMax is more beneficial than either alone.  Considering the push to have new sets or underperforming sets to have +absorb, wouldn't it be better to uphold the current differences so that there remains more variety and scales of effectiveness when powers interact rather than shift more things to have just +absorb?  Someone mentioned Frostworks should change to +absorb, but should it?  Don't you think +absorb would fit better on Force Fields?  If both sets have +absorb (on top of other new sets or other self-buff powers) wouldn't have hit a point of diminishing returns far faster?  And having FF with +absorb and Cold Domination with +HPMax would have some level of compliment there considering they both already step on each others' toes with +def.

 

And it's far more likely when new powers or sets are changed in the future, you will see even more +absorb because it's the new cool fad that everyone wants...is it really wise to retroactively change all these other powers?

 

2 hours ago, AgentForest said:

Joshex, your argument doesn't really make sense.  You seem to be the one saying the tides control the moon here.  I'm simply looking at the development process as it has played out.

New mechanics were added, and in their addition, old mechanics that did similar things just sorta stopped being used.  +HP was implemented before the game had the ability to add temporary HP to a character through absorb barriers.  It was the same idea, but more awkward because those temporary HP were capable of being healed, which doesn't actually make logical sense.  If I dull the pain I'm receiving, I'm not actually increasing my hit points.  I'm merely shrugging off more of the damage.  I'm ignoring some of it.  Like a barrier would provide.  But the game engine didn't allow for temporary barriers until years later.  Nearly a decade later.  WoW came out within a year of CoH, and this mechanic was known from its beta, so I doubt the CoH team hadn't heard of it.  But their engine didn't allow for shields like that.  So they made due with a work-around.  The weird part of this work-around was that it meant that "shield" could be healed and regenerated.  It also had some collateral of causing a regen boost because regeneration in this engine is based on max HP.

The fact that when the game finally DID incorporate Absorb shields, they almost entirely stopped providing +HP powers says something.  You may not want to admit it, but it's true.  They fixed the issue with the engine, and had finally worked out a way to do what those powers used to provide more clumsily through +HP.

 

Arguing on a conceptual level, creating an ablative barrier that takes damage in your stead isn't dulling pain, it's negating it.  Dull Pain does exactly what it says: damage to *you* (you are your HP) of the same amount  has a % less effect on you, i.e. the effect is duller.  It's effectively the same as resistance too but then you aren't *dulling* the pain, you are *resisting* the pain.  Also on a conceptual level, defense used to be for deflecting, dodging or absorbing (taking a blow but it having no effect) but now that we have a mechanic that actually absorbs, that is sort of a null concept.

 

And they certainly have been using +HPMax powers still, even in sets that have +absorb.  If you really see +HPMax as some sort of mistake, then I think that takes changing any powers off the table here.  You'd have to discuss what effects that each individual effect lacks or excels in and surmise what exchanging one effect for another has on the balance of powers and sets.  Like mentioned above, I really don't see a reason to fix something that isn't broken when the devs have already demonstrated they are willing to create new powers with new effects.  This mostly seems like a push for change for parity but soon, +HPMax will be the rarer effect here.

[Joshex]

4 hours ago, AgentForest said:

Joshex, your argument doesn't really make sense.  You seem to be the one saying the tides control the moon here.  I'm simply looking at the development process as it has played out.

New mechanics were added, and in their addition, old mechanics that did similar things just sorta stopped being used.  +HP was implemented before the game had the ability to add temporary HP to a character through absorb barriers.  It was the same idea, but more awkward because those temporary HP were capable of being healed, which doesn't actually make logical sense.  If I dull the pain I'm receiving, I'm not actually increasing my hit points.  I'm merely shrugging off more of the damage.  I'm ignoring some of it.  Like a barrier would provide.  But the game engine didn't allow for temporary barriers until years later.  Nearly a decade later.  WoW came out within a year of CoH, and this mechanic was known from its beta, so I doubt the CoH team hadn't heard of it.  But their engine didn't allow for shields like that.  So they made due with a work-around.  The weird part of this work-around was that it meant that "shield" could be healed and regenerated.  It also had some collateral of causing a regen boost because regeneration in this engine is based on max HP.

The fact that when the game finally DID incorporate Absorb shields, they almost entirely stopped providing +HP powers says something.  You may not want to admit it, but it's true.  They fixed the issue with the engine, and had finally worked out a way to do what those powers used to provide more clumsily through +HP.

 

---

 

That being said, pretty much every +HP click move could easily be replaced with an Absorb, +Regen, lower cooldown move.  The whole point of dulling pain was to reduce the impact of large hits, and letting people do this through a barrier just makes more logical and mechanical sense.  Auto-powers still make more sense being +HP instead of Absorb though, as they are passive, and thus constant.  If it's constant, it should be an HP increase, because HP is supposed to be constant.  In an RPG, max HP is supposed to be more static.  It's not really meant to dramatically change from minute to minute.  Even in games that have HP buffs (like Blessing of Fortitude in WoW), they tend to be very long-term buffs, or permanent character stat changes as passives.  Having a button press decide that you are now 40% more person than you were before, short of growing in size, doesn't really make sense.  If you want the same effect from a more logically consistent set of effects:

Absorb
+Regeneration
+Resist (all)

That would be functionally identical, minus the "healing a barrier" mechanic that +HP has that makes no sense.  However, splitting +HP into those 3 effects would allow for more fine-tuned balance fixing of powers, and allow for more thematic implementation of such powers.  Perhaps the version of Dull Pain that Regen Scrappers get offers greater +Regen, but the Dull Pain that Invulnerability Tankers get offers more Resistance and Absorb.  Perhaps Earth's Embrace is just tons of Resistance with a weaker Regen boost.  Maybe Hoarfrost is more Absorb than regen/resist.  Then the cooldown on those powers could be adjusted to how situational it is and how often such a move is needed for that set to function well.

There's a lot that could be done to update these older powers, and the only complaint I see about doing it is, "No, I'm used to doing things the old way."  Okay, fine preference I guess, but that doesn't actually contribute any real balance or readability assistance to the conversation.  It doesn't address the clear design direction that had happened ever since Absorb was added as a mechanic.  It's just arbitrary personal preference to keep it as is.

you don't seem to understand the concept here.

 

lets go straight to the main argument, you want +HP (a superior power) to be replaced with absorb (and inferior power) but not just absorb, you want absorb + regen............ do you not get it yet? ABSORBED HP CANNOT REGENERATE, thats why it's inferior. if you had a power which on click gave you 7500 absorb on top of 3000 HP, then granted a 1,000,000,000,000% regen boost while the power is active so long as you have the absorbed HP in any amount, even if you lost 7500 HP in a fight, regen would not happen! you cannot regain a single point of absorb from regen! you can only regen HP, real HP so sticking regen on a click type absorb power is pointless as once you lose the absorb boost, it's gone and not coming back till the next casting. at which point any regen from the power could only work on your normal HP amount.,

 

I was building an MMO, I came up with this very same concept, I had a better name for it; I called it Deflection and had it as an additional survival mechanism in direct replacement for def or res. (as per the power set). It is classed as a damage preventative, not an actual HP function at all. the fact coh chose to make it as a single non-damage-type specific number that overlayed the health bar is just thier idea. it does have some fleeting relationship with HP, but lacks regen and cannot be healed.

 

Knowing what others have said about who the Paragon Studios team was at work, this is a careless mistake they would not make. not without a pre-planned reason. they would never make something without considering former alternatives. the fact it exists at all means they had a specific use for a feature different from +HP. thus intent.

 

The intent as I said was in my mind for no other reason than a trade-off. in example instead of a set being just +HP, regen and Res and lack defense in any form, now they could do +Absorb, Res and Def with regen when the absorb power is not on and slap in maybe a damage boost.. all because of a lack of regen and heal on the HP.

 

What does this mean? if you want to take away dull pain's +HP and replace it will Absorb, you will have to afford Invul as a set some extra power abilities to compensate. adding it all as pure absorb is a flawed feature you'd add in crazy amounts like 7600 and still have people wishing they could keep some of it for the whole time the power is active.

 

Remember, this is why there is an accolade which gives you 1 more HP. because in a pinch being able to go down to that last HP and regen back to full plus that 1 HP can be critical! I've been there! literally recovered from 1 HP to the full +HP cap several times in a row!

 

The problem here with equating +HP to Absorb as a number like I did previously, is that that has to base itself on "average damage". if you were to seriously do this your click type power would have to automatically stack based on the number and rank of enemies in your proximity. because 7600.. maybe bosses at the highest. EB, GM or AV will murder that in a heartbeat. so it's have to be a complicated process to really equate an amount of Absorb to +HP

 

this is why instead of trying to convert +HP to pure Absorb, they instead left it at the normal amount +HP 1000 for 1000 Absorb, then used the leftover value to buy more power abilities in the set to make up for the loss.

[AgentForest]

7 hours ago, Naraka said:

Dull Pain does exactly what it says: damage to *you* (you are your HP) of the same amount  has a % less effect on you, i.e. the effect is duller.

Not exactly.  To dull pain is to blunt it.  To shrug it off.  You are essentially numbing yourself to a blow.  If a portion of that blow just didn't happen, that's an absorb.  You aren't increasing your health.  You're just ignoring the pain of a hit.

[AgentForest]

5 hours ago, Joshex said:

ABSORBED HP CANNOT REGENERATE, thats why it's inferior.

You use the absorb to soak up the hits, and the regeneration tops you off while the shield buys you time to regenerate.

It's not a hard concept to understand.  Many MMOs have healer specs that utilize this combo of regen or heal-over-time effects with barriers to buy them time to work their magic.  One of the reasons people like +HP is because it increases base regen, which is why I suggest giving absorb effects a regen bonus.  Not because the BARRIER can regen, but because your health bar could still use the help while the shield protects you, lol.  Also, the regen effect would have a duration, like all regen buffs.  It wouldn't just "disappear" because the barrier's gone.  The barrier has a max duration, sure, but it also has a health.  Just because you killed the shield doesn't mean the regen has to stop.  Just like how waking someone up from Salt Crystals still leaves the defense debuff in effect.

Your argument that the devs clearly wanted +HP to exist separate from Absorb mechanics despite switching mostly to absorb for new powers once they'd managed to make it work in the game's engine is akin to saying: "The devs clearly didn't want Hero ATs to have passives.  Villains got them, and if they wanted heroes to have them, it would have been in from the start.  They could have done it.  Therefore, any old ATs should not have passives."  It just doesn't work as an argument as far as I can tell.  They hadn't originally planned on it, but felt it was only fair that older content get the same dynamic, fun overhaul that newer content got.  The engine didn't allow for adding a separate absorb HP bar originally.  So they used the workaround of just adding to your HP pool instead.  Minor differences (like being able to heal the new HP, and affecting base regen), but ultimately it got the job done without needing to dramatically revamp the game engine.  Later, they found a way to make absorb shields work.  The game was shut down so fast after those powers came out that there was no time to ever see how well-received it was and build it into other older sets.  But my guess is, much like with hero ATs getting passives, it was only a matter of time.

Anyway, it seems you're getting really heated over just a friendly conversation about possible mechanical tweaks, so maybe you aren't the person to talk about this stuff with.  I'll keep that in mind in the future.  Have a good night, everyone.