Mini contentious rant (empaths)

[jubakumbi]

Every single "healer" I have ever met in City of Heroes has been worthless, and every team that asked for a "healer" has been a disaster. The word is a giant red flag for me now.

 

This was my experience for years on live.

The breaking of the need for the 'trinity' on CoH is one of it's best attributes, IMO.

 

Play how you like, I'll even carry your 'healer'.

 

I won't even put anyone needing/being a 'healer' on ignore, in hopes they learn.

 

But given the chance, I prefer to have a productive team member over a 'healer'. :)

[Mr. Vee]

I decided for lulz to make a 'healer' emp on the last day of live. Got it into the teens basically just being silly and topping off my friends' health every time they took any hit with my medicine pool heal.

But anyway, last day of the game and I got the name Achilles Heal. that the name was still available tells you about everything you need to know about the 'healer' mentality.

[Mikazuki]

And as a side comment to all potential healers:

 

Defenders can now use Pain Dom! And that's nothing short of amazing.

 

The sets are extremely similar, compared to empaths they lose 10-15% in pure numbers healing-wise, their fortitude is a bit weaker and does a resistance buff instead of a defense buff( which may be more or less effective depending on the target being buffed), their AB does +damage instead of +recharge. They drop healing aura for a toggle that heals nearby allies for a small amount periodically(overall very similar).

 

But:

 

They lose recovery aura(which gets pointless at incarnate levels with everyone in your team spamming ageless) and get Anguishing Cry, that is a massive -37.5% defense(that can go up to -60% and higher depending on slotting/sets/incarnate) and -30% resistance debuff AoE

 

So yeah, I'm loving i25 and things like Pain Defenders and /rad masterminds lol.

 

And the tl;dr here is: city of heroes has a lot to offer, look into other builds, you might find amazing things there.

[Rumors]

All of this is stuff you've likely thought about, but I thought I'd share. Some folks just aren't there yet. They lack the experience and intelligence that you may have.

 

Oh I totally understand not having the knowledge and experience, that's expected.  My first Scrapper way back when skipped both Stamina and her mez protection because the powers seemed pretty bad to me.  It wasn't until a group that I was complaining about being mezzed and always being out of endurance that someone corrected me.

 

 

It's really more the attitude a lot of the "healers" have that I take issue with.  Some of those Empaths are eager to learn new tricks.  Others?  You dare offer them a suggestion and you'll get fire and vitriol from them for suggesting they dare take a blast or use Clear Mind or whatever else.  Sometimes they'll stop even using their powers on me entirely over a small suggestion.  I've not encountered this yet on Resurgence, but I'm sure they're out there.

[Mr. Vee]

It's really more the attitude a lot of the "healers" have that I take issue with.  Some of those Empaths are eager to learn new tricks.  Others?  You dare offer them a suggestion and you'll get fire and vitriol from them for suggesting they dare take a blast or use Clear Mind or whatever else.  Sometimes they'll stop even using their powers on me entirely over a small suggestion.  I've not encountered this yet on Resurgence, but I'm sure they're out there.

 

Yeah some are so used to being wanted and slurped in holy trinity games that they take constructive criticism about as well as King joffrey. I suspect some take on the healer role in game after game just for the blind validation from strangers.

[Redlynne]

I'm just going to leave these links here, in case anyone needs to laugh more ...

 

[Mikazuki]

I'm just going to leave these links here, in case anyone needs to laugh more ...

 

 

How did i never see that channel before, youtube has failed me.

[Myrmidon]

My Trinity: */Rad, */Kin, */Time.

 

Yours are up to you.

[Roughtrade]

I'm just going to leave these links here, in case anyone needs to laugh more ...

 

This might be the funniest thing I have seen in months.

[Misguidance]

So, on live one of my 2 mains was an emp/rad (and of course I've re-made him.) 

 

One thing I've noticed is that emps are in high demand up to about level 40, and then other powersets don't need healing at all and the demand drops off. It took me an age to level to 50 on live because emps were basically unwelcome on high level teams.

 

Having said that, I cannot for the life of me understand not taking anything but emp powers (outside of RP, which is something I know very little about).  I've certainly been in groups where most of my time is spent frantically healing apparently suicidal blasters or that one lovely tank who pulls an entire room without telling anybody where they are going, but on the whole those are rare.  If I didn't have my secondary power set, I'd be bored out of my mind!  ???

[eiynp]

I had one in a group today who had all the emp heal powers (and only the heal powers, fortitude apparently was too much for them), all of the heal/buff powers from the medicine pool, and for reasons passing understanding had also taken pacify, provoke and unrelenting.

 

And it's like, I get it man, you want the healer role, or you're roleplaying or whatever... but you're nigh useless to a team.  You're not helping us fight things faster and if we pull too much, a couple emp heals aren't saving us.

 

If you wanna be a healer just play nature; at least then you can spend most of your time healing (however effectively)

[Zolgar]

I've been playing a Bots/Empathy MM quite a bit recently, doing PUGs.

 

I am a support build, for the character concept, there is no offense built in to the armor suit, only support. (Basically the power armor is built to provide all the services of the emergency teleportation network, outside of the reach of the network, there are then battle ready robots to provide defense for those 'ported in to or out of danger.) If things are going super smoothly, I break out my prestige attacks, because... well, why not? But usually, there's buffs to apply and people and robots to keep alive.

 

I am trying with her to subtly help other support players figure out what they're doing, but using buffs, keeping everyone alive, usually if there's another support with a Clear Mind style power on the team I ask them to keep it up on me, along the lines of "If you can keep me under Increase Density, I can keep the rest of the party under Clear Mind."

 

Also, side note: Tip for any MMs with heals- Heal your damn pets, they're basically extra hit points for you.

[Zerethon]

I Mean, back in the day i had an Emp/Psi Def and a Kin/Psi Def

 

Emp, especially now with the AOE Buffing, is SUPER UNDERRATED. But you take a set like Rad or psi or something and take the AOE debuff/mezz attacks so you can help stunlock groups or mez AV's and the like

 

It's just like kin, Fulcrum shift and Transference are great, but the +20-something percent resist and bonus from IDensity and the Recharge/Recovery of speed boost shouldn't be underestimated

 

In older CoX (Pre-going rogue for instance) "Pure supports" like you're referring to were godsends - just buff the crap out of everyone and use a couple of attacks that have a debuff attached, and/or just occasionally jump in and pop a nuke (Rad was popular for this for many reasons)

 

If you wanted to speed-run some of the TF/SF content, that was the way to do it. Bring a hard support empath and make your tank and DPS into gods.

 

I'll take having regen-level health recovery and end recovery on top of bonus damage and capped everything all day every day.

[Zolgar]

Emp, especially now with the AOE Buffing, is SUPER UNDERRATED.

 

For the record, none of Empathy's buffs that were not AoEs were made in to AoEs.

Clear mind is a mez resist buff, which none of those are AoE (Increase Density is not the exception, the actual target is the only on to receive the mez resist, the rest of the effects are AoE)

Fortitude is single target.

Adrenaline Boost is single target.

 

You only AoE buffs are Regeneration and Recovery auras.

[Primantis]

Emp, especially now with the AOE Buffing, is SUPER UNDERRATED.

 

Clear mind is a mez resist buff, which none of those are AoE (Increase Density is not the exception, the actual target is the only on to receive the mez resist, the rest of the effects are AoE)

 

 

Ooh shit is that what's going on? I was wondering why I'd get mezzed even though I have ID on me as a buff. I figured it was some bug or something lol. Good to know!

 

 

Can we add to the list Tanks who insist on doing complicated pulls on every spawn?

 

It's like if you don't want to initiate combat that's fine just pass me some purples and let me initiate, but don't waste everyone's time with unnecessary pulls.

 

This drives me up the wall sometimes. If its one of those super crowded rooms and the team is struggling, then fine. But if we're loaded to the gills with Defenders, Corruptors or Controllers it just seems like a waste of time. The mob is already nice and bunched up in a hallway, why are we corner pulling exactly? Bonus face palm points if you have a trigger happy Controller who spams their immob. Causing the mob to be scattered to hell and stuck in place.

 

("Frontal Herding" is another matter entirely. Where the tank draws new groups of mobs into our pits of doom)

 

 

 

It's really more the attitude a lot of the "healers" have that I take issue with.  Some of those Empaths are eager to learn new tricks.  Others?  You dare offer them a suggestion and you'll get fire and vitriol from them for suggesting they dare take a blast or use Clear Mind or whatever else.  Sometimes they'll stop even using their powers on me entirely over a small suggestion.  I've not encountered this yet on Resurgence, but I'm sure they're out there.

 

Aye, this is why my policy is "Only give advice when asked". People in general can get really irate if you start "telling them how to play". It's not a mindset unique to healers.

[Zolgar]

Can we add to the list Tanks who insist on doing complicated pulls on every spawn?

 

It's like if you don't want to initiate combat that's fine just pass me some purples and let me initiate, but don't waste everyone's time with unnecessary pulls.

 

This drives me up the wall sometimes. If its one of those super crowded rooms and the team is struggling, then fine. But if we're loaded to the gills with Defenders, Corruptors or Controllers it just seems like a waste of time. The mob is already nice and bunched up in a hallway, why are we corner pulling exactly? Bonus face palm points if you have a trigger happy Controller who spams their immob. Causing the mob to be scattered to hell and stuck in place.

 

("Frontal Herding" is another matter entirely. Where the tank draws new groups of mobs into our pits of doom)

 

 

I was on a team the other day, we're fighting Crey in one of their techy maps.. and the tank was constantly wanting to corner pull even if it was one solo group. After about the third one, I just beat him to the groups and didn't move.. since I was an AoE brute, everything stayed focused on me >.>

 

If you have a strong party, and you want to practice your pulling, pull more groups on to the party. Your brutes will thank you.

[Lyrium]

Every single "healer" I have ever met in City of Heroes has been worthless, and every team that asked for a "healer" has been a disaster. The word is a giant red flag for me now.

 

This, a million times!

[DanaDark]

Every single "healer" I have ever met in City of Heroes has been worthless, and every team that asked for a "healer" has been a disaster. The word is a giant red flag for me now.

 

This, a million times!

 

This makes me very sad. I really enjoy healing in groups, radio missions, TFOs, etc. But I understand that just healing through damage is a rough thing... I surely don't want to do it! I LOVE my mind troller + empath because I can switch between CC focus and heal focus as we need.

 

I also have played other characters and notice when there simply is no healer at all... which sort of scary.

 

Overall, entire thread just feels like a bunch of people shitting on what I enjoy and came to play. I know it ain't, but man, a whole thread of people complaining about empaths and healers is really a downer.

[jkwak]

i always thought in COH you are class xyz with some healing Powers

 

but this thread gave me the uncontrollabel urge to create a "healer" and do all the things you guys are complaining about

 

 

btw next time you see a "healer" do this

 

[Misguidance]

[quote author=DanaDark link=topic=2151.msg14582#msg14582

 

 

 

Overall, entire thread just feels like a bunch of people shitting on what I enjoy and came to play. I know it ain't, but man, a whole thread of people complaining about empaths and healers is really a downer.

 

I wouldn't worry- there will always be groups who want emps and who appreciate the time people put into good healing and buffs. Threads like this one used to pop up now and then on the live forums too, but it's very telling that healing powers were never massively altered or removed from the game.  ;)  People enjoy it, and the majority of players don't have an issue with it.

 

Give it a while, and we'll also get threads about bad tanks, arguments about MM pets, people complaining about side-swapping, and pretty much everything else.  Because sometimes people get frustrated and need to vent after a bad experience, and sometimes people just don't like letting others play the game in ways that differ to what they would do. (Case in point- that massive thread about 'kill stealing.')

[Sothoth]

[quote author=DanaDark link=topic=2151.msg14582#msg14582

 

 

 

Overall, entire thread just feels like a bunch of people shitting on what I enjoy and came to play. I know it ain't, but man, a whole thread of people complaining about empaths and healers is really a downer.

 

I wouldn't worry- there will always be groups who want emps and who appreciate the time people put into good healing and buffs. Threads like this one used to pop up now and then on the live forums too, but it's very telling that healing powers were never massively altered or removed from the game.  ;)  People enjoy it, and the majority of players don't have an issue with it.

 

Give it a while, and we'll also get threads about bad tanks, arguments about MM pets, people complaining about side-swapping, and pretty much everything else.  Because sometimes people get frustrated and need to vent after a bad experience, and sometimes people just don't like letting others play the game in ways that differ to what they would do. (Case in point- that massive thread about 'kill stealing.')

 

As a healer, it's not the tanks that are bad, it's the blasters who think they are tanks, split from the team, and think they are going to wipe every group with one shot. I just let them die now. Tired of running all over the mission to save the people who can't stick with the team.

[Rumors]

This makes me very sad. I really enjoy healing in groups, radio missions, TFOs, etc. But I understand that just healing through damage is a rough thing... I surely don't want to do it! I LOVE my mind troller + empath because I can switch between CC focus and heal focus as we need.

 

I also have played other characters and notice when there simply is no healer at all... which sort of scary.

 

Overall, entire thread just feels like a bunch of people shitting on what I enjoy and came to play. I know it ain't, but man, a whole thread of people complaining about empaths and healers is really a downer.

 

Don't misunderstand us.  Or some of us, anyway.  There's a big difference between the "healer" the thread is complaining about and Empaths.  If you're playing a Mind/Empath in the way that you say then, congrats, you're not a "healer", you're the kind of Empath we'd rather team with.  You're using both your primary and secondary to their full extent and that's making you way more awesome than the stereotypical bad "healer". 

 

This topic is (I think) complaining about Empaths, ones that are usually Defenders, who only take Healing Aura, Heal Other, and the revive.  Maybe Absorb Pain.  If you're lucky, they'll have Regeneration and Recovery Aura.  They'll then ignore the entire rest of their primary and their entire Secondary and start picking up powers like Aid Other from Medicine Pool, powers they really have no business taking because their primary should have all of that covered easily.  You won't see them using their amazing buffs like Fortitude or Adrenaline Boost, because they're not heals.  They could be making a couple of players on the team literal gods, but they won't since the powers aren't heals.

 

...of course, this is still better than the Radiation Emmission Defenders who only take Radiant Aura, Accelerate Metabolism, and Mutation.  >.>  Being a Rad/Sonic main back in the day, I could write an essay on just how bad that is.

 

This playstyle is okay low to mid level, where straight heals are more important because people haven't gotten all their mitigation yet.  But beyond that, they just make things harder for the team because the way they built makes them very ineffective.

 

Again though, Empaths can be friggin' amazing when played right, but the heals are among the least awesome things they can do.  You also ought to try teaming with both a Forcefield and Sonic Defender on the same team someday.  Hard to do since both powersets are kinda rare.  But that combination will have your team going "lol what is damage?"

 

 

Personally, I rolled a healer last night, a Pain/Dark Defender.  My plan is to get my attacks slotted for -ToHit and, if all works as planned, I won't need to heal much or at all between making enemies wildly inaccurate and my AoE team buff, whose name I forget, that gives resistance.  Heck, I'm gonna take the Dark nuke as a panic "stop hitting my team!" button since the ~65% to-hit debuff looks super juicy.  (Plus the sets will be super cheap if/when I get to that.)

[MunkiLord]

So an entire slot in the party is reduced to a leadership totem that helps occasionally with fortitude and AB. 

 

If the team is rolling, then I don't see this as a problem. There are more important things to worry about.

 

Can we add to the list Tanks who insist on doing complicated pulls on every spawn?

 

It's like if you don't want to initiate combat that's fine just pass me some purples and let me initiate, but don't waste everyone's time with unnecessary pulls.

 

I don't avoid tanks, but I never seek them out either. If there are buffs and debuffs, they simply aren't needed the vast majority of the time.

 

 

Every single "healer" I have ever met in City of Heroes has been worthless, and every team that asked for a "healer" has been a disaster. The word is a giant red flag for me now.

 

This, a million times!

 

This makes me very sad. I really enjoy healing in groups, radio missions, TFOs, etc. But I understand that just healing through damage is a rough thing... I surely don't want to do it! I LOVE my mind troller + empath because I can switch between CC focus and heal focus as we need.

 

I also have played other characters and notice when there simply is no healer at all... which sort of scary.

 

Overall, entire thread just feels like a bunch of people shitting on what I enjoy and came to play. I know it ain't, but man, a whole thread of people complaining about empaths and healers is really a downer.

 

People have been whining about this since the game started, they are best ignored. Some people want to be pure healers, and that's fine for 99% of the content in the game. Despite the impression the whining gives, this really is a non issue.

[Erydanus]

In older CoX (Pre-going rogue for instance) "Pure supports" like you're referring to were godsends - just buff the crap out of everyone and use a couple of attacks that have a debuff attached, and/or just occasionally jump in and pop a nuke (Rad was popular for this for many reasons)

Emphasis mine in the quote: You're missing an important point. We're talking about people who skip the "and use a couple of attacks that have a debuff attached" part of playing an Empath.

 

I just sat here with a build planner and if you take everything in Empathy; recall friend; maneouvers, assault, tactics and one of venge or victory; and injection, aid self, and field medic; you still have enough slots for FIVE attacks. If you take dark for instance you could take Dark Blast and slot for -tohit turning it into a -14% tohit debuff tool; dark pit which is a stun; tenebrous tentacles which is an AoE immobilize and you can also slot it for -tohit and get it up to about -14%; take torrent for moving mobs away from people; and take Blackstar because it's a -62.5% to hit nuke and that's before slotting.

 

As far as tapping into the medicine pool it's not an invalid choice! Injection can be used as a debuff attack applying -12.5% tohit, damage, and recharge to a foe. USEFUL. Aid Self gives you 48% stun resistance (that is reduces the time you're stunned by that %). Since you can't clear mind yourself and stun attacks are common why not get that?. If you have Field medic it's also an end buff. And finally Field Medic is like Healer Build Up: 25% bonus to heal power. SURE! Fine,  stack Field Medic and Power Build Up and use Absorb Pain. That will be HILARIOUS OVERKILL.

 

There's so many options too. The original defender blast powersets were restricted to powers that had a debuff or comparable component: -tohit in dark, -end in lighting, knockback in energy blast, etc. Some of the latest proliferated ones just do damage - and that's ok too!

[hastened]

 

Again though, Empaths can be friggin' amazing when played right, but the heals are among the least awesome things they can do.  You also ought to try teaming with both a Forcefield and Sonic Defender on the same team someday.  Hard to do since both powersets are kinda rare.  But that combination will have your team going "lol what is damage?"

 

 

The Trio I'm currently playing with my wife and friend is a Force Field Defender, Thermal Defender and Invulnerability Tank.  We're low level still, but it is already pretty amazing, and is going to get dumb once everyone's powers fully come on line.

 

I'm taking the heals, because there's 5 different axis on which to passively mitigate damage (Res, Def, Healing, -Damage and -Recharge), and they all stack multiplicatively.  Healing is the only axis with linear scaling, which makes it worse in general than the other 5 that all have strongly non-linear mitigation until capping, but it is also the one with the fewest holes, the only one with no cap, the only one that doesn't need to be used if it isn't needed and the only one which can be retroactively applied to damage that has already occurred.  Building out our team's mitigation along that axis ends up making the team several multiples more durable, as it repairs damage which must first be filtered through forcefields and fire shields.

 

All that being said, I fully agree with the core message that it is critically important that an empath use their buffs and secondary percisely because of the multiplicative strength of different forms of mitigation.  Fortitude alone nearly doubles the effectiveness of every other +HP based power empaths get while tacking on an effective offense boost.