Mini contentious rant (empaths)

[SomethingWicked]

Something that always irked me on live, I'd be running my D3 (dark/dark defender) and there was another defender/controller in the group that just loved to spam their PBAoE heal.  I would be running all over the place spamming darkness and debuffs everywhere, enemies are wiffing left and right, health bars are pegged to full as I nerf mobs accuracy in to the ground.  20 minutes into doing missions and people in the group start saying, "Nice Heals!"  and "Great job healing!".  95% of the time this person is just doing a green laser light show which just looks pretty and somehow everyone thinks thats why everything has run so smoothly...    ::)  :o

 

It still stings a little.    :-\

[subbacultchas]

I would like to point out here, there are valid reasons to occasionally spam your heals. I had a couple folks that were perturbed by me spamming Dark Affinity's heal during Summer Blockbuster AVs. It's not like we needed the heals at all, but there is a -regen component to most of the enemy target based heals. Not a lot, but totally worth throwing that -regen debuff out there on the AVs, especially the first one in the casino part.

 

I figure I'd put it here, since A) this thread reminded me of it and B) more than a few folks didn't know this during SB, might be true here too.  Dark and Kinetics are two of the sets that I know of that have the -regen component.

[Orivon]

Seeing as though Empathy came from the days when the best enhancements were SO or Hami-Os they were needed back then and during ED days. It didn't really age as well as the other sets.

 

Now, a question I do have about the current state of Empathy. Does it provide +Absorb? Because maybe making that change to the powers could allow Emps to fill a role that not a lot of us can touch on our builds. We can all manage most of the stats with IOs and Set bonuses, but what about changing that power pool to add a form of +Absorb?

[plewto]

Something that always irked me on live, I'd be running my D3 (dark/dark defender) and there was another defender/controller in the group that just loved to spam their PBAoE heal.  I would be running all over the place spamming darkness and debuffs everywhere, enemies are wiffing left and right, health bars are pegged to full as I nerf mobs accuracy in to the ground.  20 minutes into doing missions and people in the group start saying, "Nice Heals!"  and "Great job healing!".  95% of the time this person is just doing a green laser light show which just looks pretty and somehow everyone thinks thats why everything has run so smoothly...    ::)  :o

 

It still stings a little.    :-\

 

Had a FF and a D3 on live and running up a FF now. I can't say things have changed.

[Rumors]

Honestly, the worst thing about healers is when they put their healing aura on auto.  Not because laziness or anything, but because they never take it off auto.  Waiting for everyone to arrive at a mission?  AUTO HEALS!  Someone is AFK?  AUTO HEALS!  The healer is AFK?  AUTO HEALS!  Standing at the trainer working on a costume?  AUTO HEALS!  Roleplaying?  AUTO HEALS!  Standing with a League waiting for it to fill before doing a MSR or something?  MULTIPLE AUTO HEALS!

 

 

Pleeeeeeeease turn off auto heals when you're not in combat!  Especially if you have lots of recharge, especially if you're not going to be in combat soon.  And extra especially with Empathy or Radiation!  Those both have a high pitched whining noise that gets super seriously grating when you're hearing it every 2-3 seconds for minutes on end while nothing is happening!

 

 

_{Also, if you wanna get technical, well-timed heals are both more effective and more efficient than auto heals.}

 

 

Something that always irked me on live, I'd be running my D3 (dark/dark defender) and there was another defender/controller in the group that just loved to spam their PBAoE heal.  I would be running all over the place spamming darkness and debuffs everywhere, enemies are wiffing left and right, health bars are pegged to full as I nerf mobs accuracy in to the ground.  20 minutes into doing missions and people in the group start saying, "Nice Heals!"  and "Great job healing!".  95% of the time this person is just doing a green laser light show which just looks pretty and somehow everyone thinks thats why everything has run so smoothly...    ::)  :o

 

It still stings a little.    :-\

 

 

My favorite is when I'm the only support on the team, don't use my heal, and get told "Great heals!"

 

...it's even better when I'm using a set with no heals, like Force Field.

[JusticeBowler]

This is a really weird thread.

 

Sure. Someone who never fires a shot in a PUG is a little weird, but that's the most extreme case. The line "there's no holy trinity" gets thrown out there to disguise another prejudice, THERE IS ONLY EVER DPS. There is only ever "are you maximally contributing to the speed things die without getting yourself or us dead."

 

If this is your mentality, then empaths (in fact about half the defenders out there) are underperforming. They should be MM/Empath or Fire Control/Empath or something else much more "useful" since use = DPS period full stop. The crazy thing is you are all just enough right that you can defend your maths as if they were virtue.

 

But a lot of wrong things are "just enough" right to argue that way.

 

This isn't a job

This isn't about how fast can I farm these missions for XP/INF even my personal preference Badges. This is a game we play for fun and weird and quirky builds that push the limits of the game design and are FUN to play are the reason for being here. Yes, one version of that fun is DPS or direct contributors to it, but not all. I like to run hot as much as the next guy.

 

A Tanky Tank

I finally got past my alt-itis and made a Tank for a main. He's Dark/Staff and so packed with my powersets that I buy my fly as a temp travel power every time I log in because I don't have a free slot to pick up one without giving up something I think adds to the fun and playstyle of the build.

 

But he's such a tank that frankly (especially in Form of the Soul which is needed to manage the END problems of Dark/ ) he does trivial amounts of damage. Yes, I hit things, but I hit them to taunt and I do so little damage that I've considered taking out the damage SOs and putting taunt sets (for the set bonuses of extra Max health) so that I can be better at doing what I do well and what's fun... tanking.

 

I suppose most of you wouldn't want a "taunt-bot with a huge health pool" on your team either. Because that Brute standing next to me will be almost as good a tank as I am and put out an order of magnitude more damage than I ever could even if I slotted for maximum damage.

 

The danger of the broken trinity

I do a lot of PUGs and I get in teams with Brutes, Scrappers, last night even a friggin BLASTER that could tank every bit as well the group needed (post-50 game breaking buffs I guess) and far out damaged me. You could say I can tank too well, beyond what the team needs. I must be broken. I should give up some of that and figure out some way to squeeze damage blood out of a Staff stone. I must not be playing the game right. You must not want me on your team either. You might as well write a thread say "I hate Tanks that just tank" or...

 

(wait people have said that in this thread too... and no, I don't pull-tank that's not my style... I actually run hot keeping the group supplied with fresh juicy mobs to shred as fast as they'd like, but I don't do the shredding, I can't.)

 

How about my Gravity/Storm controller that can lock down and debuff a planetoid, but also doesn't have a single RED slotted except in Propel for when I solo through old content in Ouroborus. I "over control" at the expense of the almighty Lord of DPS. I'm just as "useless" as any Empath handing out Fortitude candy in terms of DPS.

 

Separate the two problems

I hate it when it looks like someone is not "playing along". I'm not talking about lazy or distracted players. No one likes it when the bio breaks go too long or wife/husband aggro happens at inopportune times. The random scrapper that runs off every time down the wrong corridor... whatever. But this is a game, we're playing it for fun. Our toons should be fun to play. Who cares if someone has a nutter-butter build (or doesn't even know how to use their powers) ... so that the mission finishes 90 seconds later than it would have if everyone was "working hard" instead of "goofing around".

 

In about an hour you'll be PUGging with a completely different set of people (unless you are running Dr Q's TF). The pain of going a little slow because someone has an odd playstyle will be over soon enough and you'll finally get to complete the mission 90 seconds faster when that Fire/Kin arrives to give you the crack you've been waiting all evening for.

 

[MunkiLord]

This is a really weird thread.

 

Sure. Someone who never fires a shot in a PUG is a little weird, but that's the most extreme case. The line "there's no holy trinity" gets thrown out there to disguise another prejudice, THERE IS ONLY EVER DPS. There is only ever "are you maximally contributing to the speed things die without getting yourself or us dead."

 

If this is your mentality, then empaths (in fact about half the defenders out there) are underperforming. They should be MM/Empath or Fire Control/Empath or something else much more "useful" since use = DPS period full stop. The crazy thing is you are all just enough right that you can defend your maths as if they were virtue.

 

But a lot of wrong things are "just enough" right to argue that way.

 

This isn't a job

This isn't about how fast can I farm these missions for XP/INF even my personal preference Badges. This is a game we play for fun and weird and quirky builds that push the limits of the game design and are FUN to play are the reason for being here. Yes, one version of that fun is DPS or direct contributors to it, but not all. I like to run hot as much as the next guy.

 

A Tanky Tank

I finally got past my alt-itis and made a Tank for a main. He's Dark/Staff and so packed with my powersets that I buy my fly as a temp travel power every time I log in because I don't have a free slot to pick up one without giving up something I think adds to the fun and playstyle of the build.

 

But he's such a tank that frankly (especially in Form of the Soul which is needed to manage the END problems of Dark/ ) he does trivial amounts of damage. Yes, I hit things, but I hit them to taunt and I do so little damage that I've considered taking out the damage SOs and putting taunt sets (for the set bonuses of extra Max health) so that I can be better at doing what I do well and what's fun... tanking.

 

I suppose most of you wouldn't want a "taunt-bot with a huge health pool" on your team either. Because that Brute standing next to me will be almost as good a tank as I am and put out an order of magnitude more damage than I ever could even if I slotted for maximum damage.

 

The danger of the broken trinity

I do a lot of PUGs and I get in teams with Brutes, Scrappers, last night even a friggin BLASTER that could tank every bit as well the group needed (post-50 game breaking buffs I guess) and far out damaged me. You could say I can tank too well, beyond what the team needs. I must be broken. I should give up some of that and figure out some way to squeeze damage blood out of a Staff stone. I must not be playing the game right. You must not want me on your team either. You might as well write a thread say "I hate Tanks that just tank" or...

 

(wait people have said that in this thread too... and no, I don't pull-tank that's not my style... I actually run hot keeping the group supplied with fresh juicy mobs to shred as fast as they'd like, but I don't do the shredding, I can't.)

 

How about my Gravity/Storm controller that can lock down and debuff a planetoid, but also doesn't have a single RED slotted except in Propel for when I solo through old content in Ouroborus. I "over control" at the expense of the almighty Lord of DPS. I'm just as "useless" as any Empath handing out Fortitude candy in terms of DPS.

 

Separate the two problems

I hate it when it looks like someone is not "playing along". I'm not talking about lazy or distracted players. No one likes it when the bio breaks go too long or wife/husband aggro happens at inopportune times. The random scrapper that runs off every time down the wrong corridor... whatever. But this is a game, we're playing it for fun. Our toons should be fun to play. Who cares if someone has a nutter-butter build (or doesn't even know how to use their powers) ... so that the mission finishes 90 seconds later than it would have if everyone was "working hard" instead of "goofing around".

 

In about an hour you'll be PUGging with a completely different set of people (unless you are running Dr Q's TF). The pain of going a little slow because someone has an odd playstyle will be over soon enough and you'll finally get to complete the mission 90 seconds faster when that Fire/Kin arrives to give you the crack you've been waiting all evening for.

 

Absolutely nailed it.

[Solvernia]

This is a debate that has existed since City of Heroes existed, and the answer has always been don't be a healer.

 

When everyone is already mostly invincible and has self-heals out the ass for if they do get hurt, healing becomes the weakest form of support you can offer. There's a reason every buff/debuff powerset except Thermal/Pain/Empathy has either one or zero dedicated healing powers. There's a reason that a defender's secondary powerset is ranged attacks, and it's not always for dealing damage. Defender secondaries give powerful debuffs. Use them. They will keep your team going better than running Healing Aura on auto. Have you heard of anyone rolling a 'pure tanker' that just sits there and lets his toggles run without attacking?

 

If you really want to be a 'pure healer', there's nothing stopping you. But you're going to be objectively, factually worse than literally any other kind of support that exists in the game.

 

As a side note, I've had empaths spamming single-target heals on me even after I told them that I have self-heals and will never take any damage from anything, ever, so healing me is unnecessary. So they just sat there and did absolutely nothing instead. Good times.

[BitLoadr]

....

Dont take me wrong, i have no issues with empaths, sensible ones. The ones that irk me are the ones that take NO powers on their secondary power set aside from the lv1 power you are forced to take, and have nothing but empathy, leadership, teleport powers and so on.

....

 

I once had a character that was build like this, an empath with only 2 powers from the secondary set. Hit level 20 doing some DFB runs.

After a couple of normal missions with different teams I deleted the character. Reasons being that:

• in some teams I hardly had to heal or rez because the team was powerful enough to defeat mobs within seconds. So they practically took no DMG and my DPS was too low to make a dent. Made me feel kinda useless.
  
• in some teams I was healing and buffing so much that the stress of watching health bars kept me from enjoying the "scenery". I even remember just setting my char to follow someone so I could stay close to the team while I tried to get everyone's health back up after each fight.
  
• the END drain was huge! Even with 3 slotted stamina and END-Reduction in every primary.
  

 

Now maybe I just couldn't figure out how to correctly build and play a full-empath, but I did figure out that it wouldn't be an AT I'd enjoy playing.

I'm sticking mostly with ranged DPS and control types.

[SomethingWicked]

I would like to point out here, there are valid reasons to occasionally spam your heals. I had a couple folks that were perturbed by me spamming Dark Affinity's heal during Summer Blockbuster AVs. It's not like we needed the heals at all, but there is a -regen component to most of the enemy target based heals. Not a lot, but totally worth throwing that -regen debuff out there on the AVs, especially the first one in the casino part.

 

I figure I'd put it here, since A) this thread reminded me of it and B) more than a few folks didn't know this during SB, might be true here too.  Dark and Kinetics are two of the sets that I know of that have the -regen component.

 

Oh for sure!  And if that had been the case it'd make more sense..  I don't remember specifically what they were but it was definitely a PBAoE centered on them and they weren't dark, and given the time period could only have been Emp or Rad.  I remember Dark Miasma having a smidge of a stigma at the time too if I'm remembering correctly, which probably didn't help.

[Primantis]

 

 

My favorite is when I'm the only support on the team, don't use my heal, and get told "Great heals!"

 

...it's even better when I'm using a set with no heals, like Force Field.

 

Which is why I just tend to convert the term "Great Heals" into "Great Support" in my head canon. As that is what they generally mean, they just might not be inclined enough with the game mechanics to realize as such.

[Auroxis]

I wouldn't call no-attack Empaths "full support", as due to the debuffs Defenders possess (especially sonic), blasting can also be considered support.

 

On related news I solo'd a Pylon on my Empathy/Sonic defender the other day for a 200 DPS equivalent time. No Lore pets, just me and my PPP pet.

[MunkiLord]

I wouldn't call no-attack Empaths "full support", as due to the debuffs Defenders possess (especially sonic), blasting can also be considered support.

 

On related news I solo'd a Pylon on my Empathy/Sonic defender the other day for a 200 DPS equivalent time. No Lore pets, just me and my PPP pet.

 

That's a better number than my Elec/SD Scrapper lol

[Corruption]

This is a really weird thread.

 

Sure. Someone who never fires a shot in a PUG is a little weird, but that's the most extreme case. The line "there's no holy trinity" gets thrown out there to disguise another prejudice, THERE IS ONLY EVER DPS. There is only ever "are you maximally contributing to the speed things die without getting yourself or us dead."

 

Play whatever you want, especially if you're having fun. Only a jerk will kick you from a team or criticize you for playing a certain build.

 

However, at the same time, don't get upset by other people's opinions. I personally think tanks and empaths are relatively useless compared to other AT's and power sets, especially in level 50 content. If I had may way, every team would be made up of a /fire Brute and 7 Corruptor's, but I realize everyone's idea of fun is different.

 

I regularly run a bunch of level 50 task forces throughout the week and usually need to fill in a couple spots. People frequently ask me what to bring and I always reply, "whatever you want." I've had stone tanks join my speedy TF's and while it's something I would never play, it's completely fine if that's what they enjoy playing.

[PaxArcana]

[...]

 

PREACH IT, BROTHER!

 

As long as everyone is having fun, doing their level best to play as a team .... eff it, game on, let's go punch/shoot/burn/whatever some badguys until XP falls out of them.

[PaxArcana]

If I had may way, every team would be made up of a /fire Brute and 7 Corruptor's, but I realize everyone's idea of fun is different.

 

I'll see your Brute-and-his-merry-band-of-Corruptors team, and up the ante:

 

Eight Masterminds.  Covering most or all Primaries and Secondaries.  All six pets each, all fully upgraded.  Every MM running full Leadership toggles.

 

...

 

That'd defeat THE SERVER ITSELF.  Poof, all the magic smoke gone.  :D

[AkuTenshiiZero]

If I had may way, every team would be made up of a /fire Brute and 7 Corruptor's, but I realize everyone's idea of fun is different.

 

I'll see your Brute-and-his-merry-band-of-Corruptors team, and up the ante:

 

Eight Masterminds.  Covering most or all Primaries and Secondaries.  All six pets each, all fully upgraded.  Every MM running full Leadership toggles.

 

...

 

That'd defeat THE SERVER ITSELF.  Poof, all the magic smoke gone.  :D

 

I have a pipe dream of an 8-Spider team running all team-buff toggles.  Those things are nuts.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Play whatever you want, especially if you're having fun. Only a jerk will kick you from a team or criticize you for playing a certain build.

Agreed. I will silently judge you but you're still welcome on the team.

 

However, at the same time, don't get upset by other people's opinions. I personally think tanks and empaths are relatively useless compared to other AT's and power sets, especially in level 50 content. If I had may way, every team would be made up of a /fire Brute and 7 Corruptor's, but I realize everyone's idea of fun is different.

That seems inefficient, you could trade the brute for an 8th corruptor.

[Sorth_31]

I'll see your Brute-and-his-merry-band-of-Corruptors team, and up the ante:

 

Eight Masterminds.  Covering most or all Primaries and Secondaries.  All six pets each, all fully upgraded.  Every MM running full Leadership toggles.

 

I still remember playing an eight man thug MM team. Leadership? Wait, our pets can actually miss?

[Corruption]

 

However, at the same time, don't get upset by other people's opinions. I personally think tanks and empaths are relatively useless compared to other AT's and power sets, especially in level 50 content. If I had may way, every team would be made up of a /fire Brute and 7 Corruptor's, but I realize everyone's idea of fun is different.

That seems inefficient, you could trade the brute for an 8th corruptor.

 

That certainly works, but it's nice having one Brute to keep mobs from scattering and AV's from running away.

[justicebeliever]

[...]

 

PREACH IT, BROTHER!

 

As long as everyone is having fun, doing their level best to play as a team .... eff it, game on, let's go punch/shoot/burn/whatever some badguys until XP falls out of them.

 

Thanks Pax for editing JusticeBowlers quote for me.  I’m on my phone and editing sucks.  Just want to say +1 JusticeBowler and Pax.  I agree 100%.

[Doc Spectre]

How about giving Heal Other the ability to affect an enemy with a -regen and/or -resist debuff?

 

That way if the team is not being injured the Empath can make a contribution vs a tough opponent.

 

I kind of think Empathy and probably Force Field could be given a slight boost in the debuff department to make them a bit less situational.

[Rumors]

This is a really weird thread.

 

Either I think you're misunderstanding the complaining or, instead, I'm misunderstanding the fellow complainers and they're being more complainy than I am.

 

Like in the OP, if the person is rolling their toon for a certain playstyle or RP concept, fully aware of the sacrifices they are making, then fine, sure, no problem.  It won't be the most efficient thing, but that doesn't matter most of the time.  I'll take your super tanky tank no problem.  I'll take my extreme-control Controller from Live (which I really need to remake once my wrist is feeling better).  I'll take someone's Man-build for most content.

 

 

"The healer" is a different sort of mindset though.  These are the people who insist the only good Defenders (or Corrs or Trollers) are those who overload themselves with heals and support powers.  Take a blast?  You're a noob.  Play something other than Empath or Pain?  Instant kick.  Buffs are worthless, you need to be pre-casting heals, etc. etc. etc. 

 

These aren't people who are going for crazy and weird concepts knowing what they're getting into.  They're being ineffective out of ignorance and, pretty often, being toxic about it as well.  I've had my Rad/Sonic Defender kicked from a PUG on live because I never used my heal.  I didn't need to since it was a +0 mission team and hardly anyone took damage due to my tohit debuffs.  I've had a FF Defender on live kicked mid-mission because they realized I had no heals, only for me to watch them instantly wipe to the next spawn since they lost my buffs.  I've had teams panic when I brought a Sonic Resonance Defender because I didn't have the heals they were expecting and didn't tell me they wanted.  Hell, my Pain Dom Defender got yelled at for actually using her blasts by one person in recent times, which are Dark and slotted for -tohit, instead of using my heal.  ...when everyone was at full or close enough my toggle would top them off.

 

Don't dare try to correct these people, it rarely ends well.

 

 

I can't speak for all the people ranting here, but at least myself, and maybe, hopefully, some others are not ranting about weird builds and concepts, but instead are about the more toxic "healer" mentality.  Was a bit nervous of making this post since I don't want to come across confrontational or defensive, but at the same time I feel like the original complaint is getting a little bit warped.

[jubakumbi]

"The healer" is a different sort of mindset though.  These are the people who insist the only good Defenders (or Corrs or Trollers) are those who overload themselves with heals and support powers.  Take a blast?  You're a noob.  Play something other than Empath or Pain?  Instant kick.  Buffs are worthless, you need to be pre-casting heals, etc. etc. etc. 

 

These aren't people who are going for crazy and weird concepts knowing what they're getting into.  They're being ineffective out of ignorance and, pretty often, being toxic about it as well.  I've had my Rad/Sonic Defender kicked from a PUG on live because I never used my heal.  I didn't need to since it was a +0 mission team and hardly anyone took damage due to my tohit debuffs.  I've had a FF Defender on live kicked mid-mission because they realized I had no heals, only for me to watch them instantly wipe to the next spawn since they lost my buffs.  I've had teams panic when I brought a Sonic Resonance Defender because I didn't have the heals they were expecting and didn't tell me they wanted.  Hell, my Pain Dom Defender got yelled at for actually using her blasts by one person in recent times, which are Dark and slotted for -tohit, instead of using my heal.  ...when everyone was at full or close enough my toggle would top them off.

 

Don't dare try to correct these people, it rarely ends well.

 

This, 1000x, as they say nowadays.

 

It's not the wierd concept characters at all, it's the agrresively useless 'healerz' trying to tell the rest of us we are doing it wrong.

I'll keep them in my team, I don't really ever kick, but when they are both useless AND toxic with thier 'healerz' mentality, then I don't want to play with them.

 

I know in many if not most MMOs, healers are 'worshiped'.

IMO, many of those same players are still angry that the playstyle they prefer does not exist here.

I have seen many rants in FFIV as an aexample, where 'healers' are _angry_ they have to do any DPS.

 

Play how you like, I'll play with you.

That does not change the fact that the 'traditional MMO healer build' is not terribly useful in CoH.

It certainly does not change the fact that many of us don't need other players teling us our great support is 'wrong' when there are not auto-heals running for no good reason, etc.

[jack_nomind]

Y'all are very nice people.  If someone asks my water/cold corr for a heal, I hand them a green.