Electrical Affinity "seizure" animations on allies

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

People definitely do, Solarverse.  There are many different types of seizures, in fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epileptic_seizure

Cool cool.

[Bastille Boy]

19 minutes ago, Naraka said:

The OP's suggestion is about the animation, i.e. how the target of the power animates.  The suggestion doesn't cover at all the visual FX that a power has.

 

To specifically explain, he's wanting to exchange or have an option that the "shock robot-dance" animation that the player character performs be replaced with the kinetics "power shrug" animation but the actual visual electricity covering the character's costume would remain the same.

Got it. In that case, I still like the OP's suggestion to have the option of turning off buff-related animations on your character.

 

I'd also like to be able to stop or to tone down the visual effects of my Thermal Radiation buffs...but it sounds as if that's a topic for another discussion.

[Harpsong]

I love how this issue has sprung up around the Elec set, but nobody has taken issue to the Experimentation set's ally buff power.

 

You literally inject someone with a syringe. They even will try to block if they're not already doing another animation, like they're trying to stop you or flinching, and then you stab them with it.

 

If you do no moves in-between, you even have the same syringe in hand when you use it again, so you could even 'share the needle' using it on someone else.

 

I'm surprised nobody's gotten upset at that!

[Naraka]

42 minutes ago, Harpsong said:

I love how this issue has sprung up around the Elec set, but nobody has taken issue to the Experimentation set's ally buff power.

 

You literally inject someone with a syringe. They even will try to block if they're not already doing another animation, like they're trying to stop you or flinching, and then you stab them with it.

 

If you do no moves in-between, you even have the same syringe in hand when you use it again, so you could even 'share the needle' using it on someone else.

 

I'm surprised nobody's gotten upset at that!

You're giving them ideas 😐

[justicebeliever]

1 hour ago, Harpsong said:

I love how this issue has sprung up around the Elec set, but nobody has taken issue to the Experimentation set's ally buff power.

 

You literally inject someone with a syringe. They even will try to block if they're not already doing another animation, like they're trying to stop you or flinching, and then you stab them with it.

 

If you do no moves in-between, you even have the same syringe in hand when you use it again, so you could even 'share the needle' using it on someone else.

 

I'm surprised nobody's gotten upset at that!

Several other examples have been given like this, but they aren't driving discussion.  Clearly somethings trigger some people, and somethings don't trigger anyone (at least anyone willing to complain about it).  That's why we shouldn't dismiss this request just because of some "slippery slope" argument (you aren't making that argument).  

[AngriestGhost]

Just tossing my 2 inf in the discussion, but I find the presence of EA buffs alongside some enemies like Clockwork or Freakshow confusing at times.  Am I be buffed? No, it was that ranged Super Stunner that rezzed behind us!

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, justicebeliever said:

Several other examples have been given like this, but they aren't driving discussion.  Clearly somethings trigger some people, and somethings don't trigger anyone (at least anyone willing to complain about it).  That's why we shouldn't dismiss this request just because of some "slippery slope" argument (you aren't making that argument).  

Well I'd say reassess the term "dismiss" as one can understand, accept someone's situation and discuss it without needing to make any changes.  As described, if a particular individual's suggestion isn't granted, it's a dismissal of a person's issue which I'm certain no one actually wants to do.  Both sides can be sensitive to an individual's problems but that doesn't always equate to censoring the majority for it.

 

I still suggest seeking a modder and just having that animation asset removed from that player's client (replaced with a duplicate of another animation) as that is the most imperial solution if this issue is that troublesome.

[summers]

We're also frying enemies to death defeat, yes?

 

I hate to be this way, but just about everything in the game can be construed as harmful/insensitive to some demographic, and if we appease all, there will be no game left.

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, summers said:

We're also frying enemies to death defeat, yes?

 

I hate to be this way, but just about everything in the game can be construed as harmful/insensitive to some demographic, and if we appease all, there will be no game left.

If animations are outright removed, that might be true. 

If options are put in place so each player can control what is rendered on THIER screen, without impacting what renders for anyone else, I see no harm in it.

That would also be of benefit to anyone with a lower end graphics card whose game struggles in highly populated areas (MSR, Hami, etc)

[justicebeliever]

3 hours ago, Naraka said:

As described, if a particular individual's suggestion isn't granted, it's a dismissal of a person's issue which I'm certain no one actually wants to do.  Both sides can be sensitive to an individual's problems but that doesn't always equate to censoring the majority for it.

But it's no longer a particular individual suggestion.  I've seen several voice their opinion on this (myself included).  What I haven't heard is anybody who is really married to the current animation, just objections to change and suggestions that its some kind of slippery slope.

 

That being said, who would be really upset if an option to change the animation locally was built in?

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

Several other examples have been given like this, but they aren't driving discussion.  Clearly somethings trigger some people, and somethings don't trigger anyone (at least anyone willing to complain about it).  That's why we shouldn't dismiss this request just because of some "slippery slope" argument (you aren't making that argument).  

To play Devil's advocate, if we nerfed everything somebody had an issue with, we wouldn't have much of a game left.  😄

[Solarverse]

35 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

That being said, who would be really upset if an option to change the animation locally was built in?

I never have an issue with somebody requesting options. The problem with players these days is that they feel entitled and they demand change...and they are so often aggressive about these requests, they push the Devs in to basically saying F'it and they outright nerf it all together. The PB sound effects for a small example, or the AoE Healing SFX that was nerfed on live, or the Ice Armor (Tanks) that was changed from a brilliant solid ice look to the nerfed down version we have today. There have been endless visual or sound effects nerfs that has taken place in this game because there is always somebody who takes issue with them. It's like we can't have anything nice because somebody always takes an issue with the animations, the SFX, or the visual effects...and in Lightning Affinity's case, all the above.

 

So when somebody comes to the boards and asks for an option instead of an outright change, they don't get anywhere near the resistance from me where the opposite would be true otherwise. I support the change idea, especially since it has been asked to be an option rather than a "forced upon everyone, like it or not" change.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Solarverse

[kiramon]

14 hours ago, ejworthing said:

 

I have seen newer players freak out about getting buffed with Thermal Radiation. And lots of people who don't find the Thermal animations upsetting do find it annoying. It obscures the character's costume in a big way. People work hard on their costumes and want them to be seen. I play thermals and apply the buffs anyway, because they're some of the best buffs in the game, but I wish I could get rid of the visual effects.

 

I like both of the OP's suggestions. I think it should apply to all buff powersets, including Thermal Radiation. I'd like to give both the recipient and the caster the option of turning off the visual effects.

This is true - well was true. Back when the game was live I remmeber people asking (when they were single target) to not get the shields o cuz they didn’t wanna be on fire. 
 

Now they can just deal with it lol 

[PhoenixV117]

How do you know it’s writhing in pain? Could be a strong orgasm.

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

But it's no longer a particular individual suggestion.  I've seen several voice their opinion on this (myself included).  What I haven't heard is anybody who is really married to the current animation, just objections to change and suggestions that its some kind of slippery slope.

 

That being said, who would be really upset if an option to change the animation locally was built in?

Then you're not looking to find anyone who is in favor of the current animation.  If you were, you'd have seen my name.

 

As for their being an option to turn some stuff off...I'd assume there are some limits to how many individual options one can put in a menu here (people have requested so many, imagine if all of them were made a separate menu option).  I wouldn't be upset if they added several menu options with varying levels of animation and fx disabled to the point every NPC and character are just T posing at each other but there would always be requests for more.  I'm merely saying why not just mod your own client just like those players that don't like the sounds of Sonic powers or Beam Rifle?

Edited April 8, 2020 by Naraka

[justicebeliever]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Then you're not looking to find anyone who is in favor of the current animation.  If you were, you'd have seen my name.

 

As for their being an option to turn some stuff off...I'd assume there are some limits to how many individual options one can put in a menu here (people have requested so many, imagine if all of them were made a separate menu option).  I wouldn't be upset if they added several menu options with varying levels of animation and fx disabled to the point every NPC and character are just T posing at each other but there would always be requests for more.  I'm merely saying why not just mod your own client just like those players that don't like the sounds of Sonic powers or Beam Rifle?

I didn't infer from your saying "I think it's fine" that you were an enthusiastic supporter of the current animation.  I stand corrected, though most of discussion wasn't about defending the current animation, but pushing back on change to animations period.

 

Your reasoning here is a slippery slope argument.  If we make one change for one person, then we'll have to make every change for every person.  But it's a fallacy for several reasons.  Chief among them are 1.) not every person is requesting change.  There have been a few powerset animations that have upset people, but the majority are silent, and the minority only complain about a few small issues.  2.) The Dev's always retain the option to say "no" later on.  It's not a rule that if they make a change here that they are socially, legally or professionally obligated to do so next time.

 

So let's worry about the request on the table, and not the phantom requests that may or likely won't come.  Me personally, I dislike the animation.  Several others have said so.  It comes down to a judgment call on the Dev's how to handle it, since there is no clear majority here one way or the other.

[Naraka]

5 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Your reasoning here is a slippery slope argument. 

It's not a slippery slope argument but if you want to assume it is, that's on you.  I'm merely pointing out creating options to cater to individuals is daunting.  There have been suggestions to have certain things set aside as options to adjust in a menu or via null the gull and so forth and I challenged you to imagine if all of those suggestions were put in and how many more would be requested moving forward.  But you decided to ignore that challenge and throw out the fallacy fallacy (basically assuming something that has a fallacy in the argument is wrong because it has a fallacy in it thus not engaging the argument).

 

The reason I made my argument isn't to sideline someone's request but rather to put the power in the hands of the requester and seek to mod their client rather than keep pushing to get their boot in to get a minor option put implemented in hopes of appeasing everyone.  It's a noble goal but a goal with work put on the backs of others to accomplish.

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Naraka said:

It's not a slippery slope argument but if you want to assume it is, that's on you.  I'm merely pointing out creating options to cater to individuals is daunting.  There have been suggestions to have certain things set aside as options to adjust in a menu or via null the gull and so forth and I challenged you to imagine if all of those suggestions were put in and how many more would be requested moving forward.  But you decided to ignore that challenge and throw out the fallacy fallacy (basically assuming something that has a fallacy in the argument is wrong because it has a fallacy in it thus not engaging the argument).

 

The reason I made my argument isn't to sideline someone's request but rather to put the power in the hands of the requester and seek to mod their client rather than keep pushing to get their boot in to get a minor option put implemented in hopes of appeasing everyone.  It's a noble goal but a goal with work put on the backs of others to accomplish.

It's still a slippery slope.  If X happens, then Y is going to happen, is the format.  If a player gets a Null the Gull option to turn off ally buff seizures (X), then imagine all requests ever for Null the Gull have to become options (Y).  It's a fallacy, because there is no contract, social or otherwise that requires the Dev's to code in every Null the Gull request based on this one.  The Dev's with the community assisting, can make judgments on each one individually (as has already been done).

 

The mod point is a really good point that i have been overlooking.  My apologies.  Is there such a mod already out there?  I wouldn't know where to start with Modding, not having done it before.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 hours ago, PhoenixV117 said:

How do you know it’s writhing in pain? Could be a strong orgasm.

 Hurt so good! Come on Baby make it hurt so good, sometimes love dont feel like it should. You make it hurt so good!

[Naraka]

16 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

It's still a slippery slope. 

And like I said, even if it is, that doesn't invalidate the argument lest you be committing a fallacy yourself.

 

Adding options for particularly personal issues can be seen as catering which while not a bad thing, can have other ramifications with UI and player support not knowing all the options or where they are located.  There's still a lot of confusion with regards to certain options existing and players just being unaware of them or them being buried in other options or menus.

 

As for modding, I think the difficult part is always finding the portion of the game that handles or contains certain assets.  Audio modding is relatively easy if you know where the specific files are.  Animation modding I have no clue about.  AFAIK, there haven't been any prominent posts about modding animations.

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Naraka said:

And like I said, even if it is, that doesn't invalidate the argument lest you be committing a fallacy yourself.

 

Adding options for particularly personal issues can be seen as catering which while not a bad thing, can have other ramifications with UI and player support not knowing all the options or where they are located.  There's still a lot of confusion with regards to certain options existing and players just being unaware of them or them being buried in other options or menus.

 

As for modding, I think the difficult part is always finding the portion of the game that handles or contains certain assets.  Audio modding is relatively easy if you know where the specific files are.  Animation modding I have no clue about.  AFAIK, there haven't been any prominent posts about modding animations.

I think I've been pretty clear in how I feel about the slippery slope you propose.  The fallacy is the Y is going to happen if X does.  And it's a pointless debate, even on it's merits, because requires a massive prognostication that neither of us are capable of.  I can't prove a negative and say it absolutely won't happen, and likewise, you can't prove it will.  So that just leaves us only focused on the value of X, not worrying about Y.

 

However, I think this last statement is exactly that, focused on the here and now.  And you express a great concern - how do we keep toggles in Null the Gull from getting confusing to players?  I don't have an immediate answer to that, except that I personally don't think we are there yet.

 

As for modding, it's a suggestion without value if it isn't any more practical than having the Dev's make the modification.  I'd be all in favor of it in place of suggesting the Dev's make a modification, if it existed, but it seems like it doesn't at this point, which leaves Joe Enduser, like me, stuck with no options either way.

 

Good back and forth @Naraka - you are well measured and well spoken.  Pleasure debating with you!

[Keen]

2 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Oddly enough lacking empathy for animals suffering is very much a sign of several potentially dangerous and violent mental disorders.

You're way out of line here with that implication.

  

35 minutes ago, MTeague said:

At no point did Keen say he would feel nothing if REAL dogs dropped dead.

This is correct. While I'm not an animal lover, I'm not an animal hater either. Seeing any living being die in real life is extremely disturbing to me, and honestly I'm baffled that this has even been brought up.

 

It also comes down to how much we relate to the visual entities in-game. I have a very strong connection with my own character. (And yes, I look at it all the time.) I don't feel the same connection when I see other MM's animal pets, so when they "die", it tends to not affect me compared to something that affects my character directly. Yes, I get very psyched up in combat and that's the main reason all characters I build in-game are extremely defensive so I feel the less pain as possible, and I also avoid dying at all costs. Yes, I mostly have no debt badges. I don't collect badges at all anyway. YMMV.

 

2 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

I would very much argue that finding a way to not have animal allies die in pain outside of combat, is a far more worthy topic to discuss then this one.

Please go ahead and look up for a topic to defend that point or create one yourself. I do NOT disagree with you, but you keep using it as a reason to dismiss this topic. We can have BOTH discussions and their solutions are even different.

 

2 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

I in fact compare people hating on shock treatment to anti vaxxers. It is a valid medical procedure. So yes allies using their shock powers to help someone to me is no different then using it like a  defibrillator, something we have seen the Flash use his abilities to do, and in fact Im pretty sure he has even used it to shock people out of being mind controlled before which very much would count as a form of shock treatment.

I am not denying Shock Therapy is a valid medical procedure, but it can still cause mental triggers. I'd also think that heroes standing around in a non-combat environment shouldn't be subject to seizures, specially when they don't need any treatment.

 

For what it's worth, I think Defibrillator is the best power in that set: it makes total sense, the animation is amazing, and it has multiple purposes. It requires a combat state however (a dead ally), which is something the seizure-inducing power doesn't require.

 

[lemming]

17 hours ago, AngriestGhost said:

Just tossing my 2 inf in the discussion, but I find the presence of EA buffs alongside some enemies like Clockwork or Freakshow confusing at times.  Am I be buffed? No, it was that ranged Super Stunner that rezzed behind us!

I notice that when an EA is on team and they buff people, everyone starts looking around for a sec thinking they've been attacked.

[Keen]

I've reached my limit with this issue today and I had to force myself away from the game.

 

I don't want to quit, this is one of my favorite games of all time and I enjoy playing every day. But I also don't want to feel like I'm gonna throw up while I'm playing -- which has finally happened today. I've tried to put up with it for weeks, but there's only so much I can handle. Yes, I have mental health issues. So do many videogame players. Playing is a way to cope. This game used to be a place where I felt powerful and safe, and it's unfortunate how a single animation quickly turned things around. Finally, the lack of GM/Dev input here is highly demotivating and I don't feel like I belong anymore.

 

As always, YMMV. If you enjoy the animation, that's great, carry on. I'm just one player negatively impacted by this.

[Veracor]

12 minutes ago, Keen said:

I've reached my limit with this issue today and I had to force myself away from the game.

 

I don't want to quit, this is one of my favorite games of all time and I enjoy playing every day. But I also don't want to feel like I'm gonna throw up while I'm playing -- which has finally happened today. I've tried to put up with it for weeks, but there's only so much I can handle. Yes, I have mental health issues. So do many videogame players. Playing is a way to cope. This game used to be a place where I felt powerful and safe, and it's unfortunate how a single animation quickly turned things around. Finally, the lack of GM/Dev input here is highly demotivating and I don't feel like I belong anymore.

 

As always, YMMV. If you enjoy the animation, that's great, carry on. I'm just one player negatively impacted by this.

Sorry to hear that, you have always been a constant help for the roles of ranged and control targetting for Hami raids.  Take a break from league content, do badges and story arcs, join Elmyder on TF speedruns (Elec Affinity is not used in any serious run), and maybe the Elec Affinity effects will be toned down on the next set of patches.  You'll always be welcome in Hami raids if you decide to come back.

 

Elec Affinity isn't annoying to me personally but I can totally see why people are starting to drop out of league content because of it.  A lot of Elec Affinity players in Hami raids seem to have rolled their characters for the only purpose of being as irritating as possible.  The sound effects can be removed, but I don't know how to remove visual effects.

 

If Hami raiding were instanced, I'd do a channel vote to see how many regulars would prefer it if Elec Affinity characters were just straight-up restricted from it.  Based on what I've seen so far, I'd expect an overwhelming Yes.