[Shield Defense] Invisible Shield for Costumes

[BrandX]

Some of that can be fixed by other things than making the shield invisible.  Walk animation and taunt override, being two of them.  As for the emotes, one can turn off the powers.

[Haijinx]

10 hours ago, Shadowsleuth said:

 

Yes please.

This is basically it, sounds like 

[Shadowsleuth]

For Shield users that use a weapon (Broad Sword, Battle Axe, War Mace), let us choose to use an animation where we block/deflect the attack with our weapon instead of using a Shield.

 

[Menelruin]

Are there actually animations where you BLOCK with the shield?  I thought most of the SD animations were more passive stuff, like "stand there in a cool pose."

[ScarySai]

8 hours ago, Haijinx said:

This is basically it, sounds like 

Not what I was going for, but I'll take it!

[Rathulfr]

11 hours ago, Replacement said:

That's what I do, but it doesn't solve the following problems:

• Walk animation override
• Emote incompatibility
• Awkward over-reliance on the right hand (my Shield/Kin just looks like she's casting a spell with all the one-handed gesturing) - to be clear, sometimes you want this.  It would be nice to have the option to ignore the "lock left hand" component.
• Awful taunt override (jungle drum scream)

What you're describing is not just "invisible shield", but also a completely different set of animations determined by which shield is selected in the costume creator. 

 

I can imagine it would be fairly easy for the devs to create an "Invisible Shield" costume part that is just that: nothing.  But as far as the game logic is concerned, there's still a shield there, even if it doesn't display anything visually.  Consequently, you'd have no visible shield, but you'd still have all the same underlying animation logic, so you'd still have all the problems you describe above.

 

I can imagine it would be more complex for the devs to alter the animation logic to change its behavior on which shield model you choose.  In fact, why stop there?  Why not change the animation logic to change behavior on which weapon you choose?  Or which gloves?  Or your chest detail?  You can see where I'm going with this: doing this would add a lot more complexity to the game code, which is already fragile enough as it is.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible: I'm just saying that it's not as easy as simply saying, "Give us an invisible shield."  An invisible shield is still a shield, as far as the game engine is concerned, so it would still have the same animation code as any of the other shields.

 

[ScarySai]

I'd be happy with JUST the invisible shield. Might look a bit weird if you nitpick, but the idea hit me as I was designing a costume where I didn't like any of the shield options.

[justicebeliever]

Are we talking an invisible shield?  Or a translucent shield that is "invisible" in game?

 

I can totally see the one happening, but not the other...

[Replacement]

38 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

What you're describing is not just "invisible shield", but also a completely different set of animations determined by which shield is selected in the costume creator. 

 

I can imagine it would be fairly easy for the devs to create an "Invisible Shield" costume part that is just that: nothing.  But as far as the game logic is concerned, there's still a shield there, even if it doesn't display anything visually.  Consequently, you'd have no visible shield, but you'd still have all the same underlying animation logic, so you'd still have all the problems you describe above.

 

I can imagine it would be more complex for the devs to alter the animation logic to change its behavior on which shield model you choose.  In fact, why stop there?  Why not change the animation logic to change behavior on which weapon you choose?  Or which gloves?  Or your chest detail?  You can see where I'm going with this: doing this would add a lot more complexity to the game code, which is already fragile enough as it is.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible: I'm just saying that it's not as easy as simply saying, "Give us an invisible shield."  An invisible shield is still a shield, as far as the game engine is concerned, so it would still have the same animation code as any of the other shields.

 

Yeah, I was imagining more a selector in the "powers" portion of character design of "ignore shield" which would simply treat your character like you had any other armor power selected when deciding animations.  This would likely come with the limitation of not being able to draw (as in display) your shield, making it functionally invisible (which is the part ScarySai is after, best I can tell).  It just happens to be an implementation that satisfies many parties simultaneously.

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

Yeah, I was imagining more a selector in the "powers" portion of character design of "ignore shield" which would simply treat your character like you had any other armor power selected when deciding animations.  This would likely come with the limitation of not being able to draw (as in display) your shield, making it functionally invisible (which is the part ScarySai is after, best I can tell).  It just happens to be an implementation that satisfies many parties simultaneously.

An "ignore shield" option would have to be limited to when the "invisible shield" was selected in the character creator, to prevent it from being used with a regular shield.  Reverting to the default animations with a regular shield equipped would just mean that the visible shield animates oddly and clips through everything.

 

Again, not impossible, but probably a lower priority on the developer's to-do list.

 

[MTeague]

I guess my first reaction is "shield defense without a shield?  isn't that Super Reflexes and just not being hit?"

But, fair point with Diana using the bracers.  "Deflection / Blocking" as opposed to just not even being there when the enemy strikes.

 

I dunno though.  If I want Broadsword attacks with an invisible Broadsword, are you gonna get behind that too?  Not just an energy blade, but a blade that ISNT THERE?

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

I guess my first reaction is "shield defense without a shield?  isn't that Super Reflexes and just not being hit?"

But, fair point with Diana using the bracers.  "Deflection / Blocking" as opposed to just not even being there when the enemy strikes.

 

I dunno though.  If I want Broadsword attacks with an invisible Broadsword, are you gonna get behind that too?  Not just an energy blade, but a blade that ISNT THERE?

I want an invisible jet costume piece, too.

 

[Redlynne]

24 minutes ago, MTeague said:

If I want Broadsword attacks with an invisible Broadsword, are you gonna get behind that too?

There are precedents for having a sword which is ACTUALLY THERE but which cannot be easily seen ...

 

 

26 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Not just an energy blade, but a blade that ISNT THERE?

Game mechanically speaking, there's no difference.

The only "meaningful" difference is in the costume editor, changing how it "looks" on the avatar.  The animations/motions would all still be exactly the same.

[MunkiLord]

Seeing as how Wonder Woman would smack any of our characters around, I can't argue with the suggestion.

[Replacement]

58 minutes ago, MTeague said:

If I want Broadsword attacks with an invisible Broadsword, are you gonna get behind that too?  Not just an energy blade, but a blade that ISNT THERE?

 

56 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I want an invisible jet costume piece, too.

 

I invite you both to page 1 of this very thread.

 

What you're actually arguing for with statements like this is removing MinimalFX options and Power Customization in general.

 

@Rathulfr I don't think you quite got what I was saying. My assumption is that by choosing an "ignore shield" power option, the shield you selected for your costume would be ignored. There would be nothing to clip, because you would be telling the game you aren't even using the "Shield" animation states.  If I'm wrong, it's still not the end of the world. I would love to see unimpeded versions of my Kin attacks even with my shield attached. The only animations that would be truly impacted would be the ones already disabled for shield defense.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

I'd be happy with JUST the invisible shield. Might look a bit weird if you nitpick, but the idea hit me as I was designing a costume where I didn't like any of the shield options.

There are Skyrim mods like this.  And I used them several times.  

 

So sure, why not?

======

 

I get the animation thing though, since the shield both forces you into the standard male running/combat stance and it changes some attack sets to 1 hand anims.  

 

But that's just how the game works.  A lot of sets do the same thing basically.  For example WM, BS. 

 

Even 2 hand weapons change the running animation (except Kat)  the same way.  

 

So its not like the invisible shield would be some weird outlier.  

[Rathulfr]

19 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I don't think you quite got what I was saying. My assumption is that by choosing an "ignore shield" power option, the shield you selected for your costume would be ignored. There would be nothing to clip, because you would be telling the game you aren't even using the "Shield" animation states.  If I'm wrong, it's still not the end of the world. I would love to see unimpeded versions of my Kin attacks even with my shield attached. The only animations that would be truly impacted would be the ones already disabled for shield defense.

I got what you were saying.  I was just pointing out that there's not an easy way to accomplish this without potentially creating new problems for someone else.  I'm sure that someone would select "Ignore Shield" and also select a visible shield. 

 

The "Ignore Shield" option would suppress the altered animations that go with the Shield Defense power set, reverting them to the default animations.  But then that would mean that the visible shield would clip through the player avatar and animate strangely while moving/fighting.

 

If the "Ignore Shield" option suppressed the altered animations and made the selected shield invisible, then the player would ask, "Hey! What happened to my shield?"  Not a catastrophe, but still confusing and frustrating nonetheless. 

 

We already have to deal with this issue now, when players select the Arachnos Crab Soldier backpacks.  Players are routinely confused that these backpacks don't appear in game, when they're clearly selectable in the character creator.  I've had players tell me that they created an entire costume built around the crab backpack, only to be dismayed when it didn't appear on their avatar when they logged in, because they did so with the wrong AT.

 

So we're back to the nut of the problem: you want the Shield Defense power set without the shield, which is kind of the point of the whole set.  They're a package deal, just like Assault Rifle, Dual Blades, Titan Weapons, etc.  I'd love to have Titan Weapons without the stupid titan weapons themselves, but that's not a reasonable ask (I really wish I could get Bio Armor without the stupid green lightning effects, which isn't unreasonable, but that's a different issue).  If you want Shield Defense without shields, pick Super Reflexes, instead.  Or recommend a new defense-oriented power set that's similar to Shield Defense, except without requiring a shield.  Otherwise, the closest you're going to get is the energy shield in my screenshot, above.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Haijinx]

The left arm is your shield, but living with all normal shield animations doesn't sound like a big ask though. 

 

IE invisible shield.  

[Rathulfr]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The left arm is your shield, but living with all normal shield animations doesn't sound like a big ask though. 

 

IE invisible shield.  

I agree with you: I'm not opposed to that.  But I don't think that's what the request is really about.

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I agree with you: I'm not opposed to that.  But I don't think that's what the request is really about.

Don't see all the rest as reasonable, unless its somehow way easier than it sounds.  

 

You'd think they would have fixed the running thing a decade ago for sets like BS and WM if that were the case. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Haijinx

[Replacement]

46 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I agree with you: I'm not opposed to that.  But I don't think that's what the request is really about.

 

35 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Don't see all the rest as reasonable, unless its somehow way easier than it sounds.  

 

You'd think they would have fixed the running thing a decade ago for sets like BS and WM if that were the case. 

Let's be clear: that's me requesting that part.  ScarySai is being reasonable and just wants an invisible shield.

 

I, personally, just think it would be easier to disable the animation states altogether - as well as fix other issues.  If it's like Rathulfr says and you could end up with shields clipping into folks, that would imply the engine allows us to paste objects to characters arbitrarily. 

And if that were the case, we could slap a Beam Rifle in my hands while I was using Temporal Manipulation powers.

And if that were the case, "redraw" wouldn't be an issue.

[Rathulfr]

11 minutes ago, Replacement said:

 

Let's be clear: that's me requesting that part.  ScarySai is being reasonable and just wants an invisible shield.

 

I, personally, just think it would be easier to disable the animation states altogether - as well as fix other issues.  If it's like Rathulfr says and you could end up with shields clipping into folks, that would imply the engine allows us to paste objects to characters arbitrarily. 

And if that were the case, we could slap a Beam Rifle in my hands while I was using Temporal Manipulation powers.

And if that were the case, "redraw" wouldn't be an issue.

My understanding is that the issues associated with clipping and redraw are very complex with the current game engine.  This is why I doubt we'll see any significant changes to anything that involves them unless/until the HC team can afford the right resources to dig into the code and address them.  And that won't happen any time Soon™, unless there's a break through in the negotiations with NCSoft.

 

That's why it's probably more achievable to get an "invisible" shield that's technically still a shield, and so follows all of the same animation rules as any visible shield.  And that's also probably why it's far less achievable to get an invisible/ignore shield that has different rules than all the other shields (without a completely different power set with different animation rules).

 

(edit) These are the kinds of issues you can get when you start messing with the costume parts and animation rules (credit to @positivegamer and Thunderspy).

 

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Rathulfr
added video clip

[Redlynne]

11 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

That's why it's probably more achievable to get an "invisible" shield that's technically still a shield, and so follows all of the same animation rules as any visible shield.

Actually, all that's required is allowing Shield Defense to have access to the already existing for every powerset "No Shield" animations and simply not add a (visible) Shield costume element onto the avatar.  As is, Shield Defense is required to access "alternate" one handed animations for each powerset, but if you "delete" the Shield from the avatar you can use the already existing library of two handed animations for powers as if the Shield wasn't there (even though, game mechanically, it still is).

 

It's the one handed "with Shield" animations that are the outlier here ... not the two handed "without Shield" animations that existed long before Shield Defense was developed for those powersets.

[Rathulfr]

Just now, Redlynne said:

Actually, all that's required is allowing Shield Defense to have access to the already existing for every powerset "No Shield" animations and simply not add a (visible) Shield costume element onto the avatar.  As is, Shield Defense is required to access "alternate" one handed animations for each powerset, but if you "delete" the Shield from the avatar you can use the already existing library of two handed animations for powers as if the Shield wasn't there (even though, game mechanically, it still is).

 

It's the one handed "with Shield" animations that are the outlier here ... not the two handed "without Shield" animations that existed long before Shield Defense was developed for those powersets.

If it's as easy as you describe, then I'm sure it will get the attention it deserves.

[Enamel_32]

I'm all for a "none" shield option, animation changes or not. I was going to make this thread if it didn't already exist!