Flag Emblems

[ImpousVileTerror]

I'd like to apologize for not doing my part earlier to be constructive with the idea(s) proposed in this thread.

 

Simply put, I think it's largely an issue with focusing on flags.

As we've seen with some of the posts in this thread, that particular topic is akin to beating on a war drum.

 

I think rebranding the idea in terms of "user submitted content" is more keeping in line and in spirit with City of Heroes in general.  We already -do- allow for user submitted content, basically, in the forms of our costumes, our backstories, our Mission Architect content, and our conduct in-game.

But as mentioned earlier here, and in other threads on similar topics, I think the most significant hurdle is going to be moderation.  And it's a very significant hurdle, even if the GMs were paid, rather than volunteers.

 

So,  here's a proposal for getting around it:  

/Costume_Ignore

 

If individual players have the power to trigger some way of blocking/generic'ing other players' appearances, for that individual player's display only, on a case-by-case basis, then such a feature would SERIOUSLY off-load a lot of the responsibility that the GMs have to moderate content.  

This is an idea which came up in one of the Henchpet Customization threads as well.  If players can self-moderate their own play experience in terms of other users' content, then we could potentially have more flexibility in allowing users the opportunity to provide more of their own personalized content.

 

The technical part of the solution, however, eludes me.

The most I can offer is to potentially co-opt an existing, but seemingly VERY rare display bug.  I have no idea how to reproduce it, but here is a screenshot from the one and only time I witnessed it:

I multibox.  Usually for roleplay.  On one of my instances of the client, this screenshot above is what I saw.  That's the skirt 3D asset AND the baggy pants 3D asset stacked on another player's character at the same time.

 

On my other instance of the client, I only saw that character wearing the baggy pants and without the jacket (exactly as the other player themself saw their own character).

 

Somehow my one client, but not the other, rendered another player's character model differently than normal.  Differently than any other player (well, different than any other client instance, anyway).

 

If this bug could be tracked down and -harnessed- intentionally, we might have a working solution that would (potentially) enable the Homecoming Team to more readily approach the introduction of user submitted content, by enabling a client-side tool for applying a generic appearance on "ignored costumes."

[Bionic_Flea]

I remember way back in live . . . maybe around issue 6 . . . a friend introduced me to an add on that substituted certain skins for others.  If you had it installed, you would see yourself (and anyone else that chose the identical costume) wearing things the game didn't allow.  One of the options was a little more detailed naked option.  That lead me to uninstall since at that time my kids were young and watching me play.

 

All that to say, if it is feasible to do those sorts of costume swaps locally, then Billy Bob can drape himself in the confederate flag and Otto can plaster swastikas on his forehead and no one but them would know.  But it would also allow anyone to import the flag of their country or whatever flag they wanted.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

After pondering this one and wanting to approach it without having to bring in RL pollywog tongue waggin here is my 2 inf on the top hat here.

 

Statesman for good and bad is the old school golden age era icon of this games multiverse. And he does not wear any direct symbol denoting his fealty to any nation, and in fact its far more the other way as Statesmans word was basically law to all the civilized nations of Earth more or less. This was by no accident and went hand in hand with J.E.s pov on the subject of supermen like beings ( let me put it this way he likely loves the DCU movies and the ego trip that is superman in them). This is why Statesman garbs himself in the colors of the leader of the free world, but is not beholden to it. States really is only a few years behind Emperor Cole, or one major world wrecking disaster from the deep end when he thankfully bites the big one. Ironically ol Wade may have saved the world a far greater threat in the long run.

 

As such I think it far more fitting with the game setting to not have heroes wear actual flags. I think Heroes considering themselves first and foremost servants of any faction political, religious, cultural rather than a hero to all that chooses to wear colors or bear a name that denotes their faction of origin is more then enough. Someone in this thread I saw who seemed unhappy with the lack of flags showed a screenie of their outfit that imo was actually quite a good homage to the flag they wanted while keeping far more akin to statesmans own design.

 

So yeah Id have to say its best to keep such things to a client side visual mod, so people can look like walking political propaganda if they want without bothering anyone else. Its bad enough there is an actual KKK rpsg on everlasting in full on white hoods/robes with torches.

[Bionic_Flea]

 

57 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Its bad enough there is an actual KKK rpsg on everlasting in full on white hoods/robes with torches.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Bionic_Flea

[golstat2003]

On 6/9/2020 at 9:09 AM, Solarverse said:

If you check back some, the current conversation leads to, "perhaps if we were given a tool to design our own flags."

 

This opens the door to include anyone's flag and shuts down anything PC, anti-PC or political in general.

 

 

 

NO. We reeeeeeallly SHOULD NOT give this as an option to design our own flags. Unless that includes only YOU can see the flag, that gets a HUGE /JRANGER from me. For I think obvious reasons based on current events currently going on. (And already mentioned in this thread).

Edited June 24, 2020 by golstat2003

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Yeah they do seem to keep on the low key side of things, only stumbled upon them because I have a human form PB and that is part of their RP theme, which they seem to use just enough of the in game lore to basically defend their existence and even be tolerated. They basically borrow from the council/5th column and CoT. Wear white colored outfits they claim are based on the old robe wearing CoT mobs( their sg name without naming/shaming uses the word white, and a specific flower, and plant in the name. I mean I guess with 2 nazi factions in game it shouldnt surprise me, and almost be expected at this point that some who want to get away with acting like nazi will base their characters on the nazi and body snatching demon cult.

 

Still when you see them all hooded up out in Perez Parks more remote regions it kinda makes you wish for open world pvp.

[Solarverse]

7 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

NO. We reeeeeeallly SHOULD NOT give this as an option to design our own flags. Unless that includes only YOU can see the flag, that gets a HUGE /JRANGER from me. For I think obvious reasons based on current events currently going on. (And already mentioned in this thread).

The problem is, is that people want them. The people that want them are being shut down with primarily PC reasons...reasons that not everyone agrees with. So in order to come up with a viable solution that does not require the Devs to spend endless hours putting in every flag the world has ever seen, that was the only possible viable and inclusive solution. People worrying about, "Well, what if they created penises or vaginas?" were basically answered with, "That's what the report function is for." I remember the same concerns being brought up with AE when it was talked about all those years ago, and it wasn't as big of an issue as people made it out to be then either.

We can't keep shutting down ideas over PC reasons. PC issues seem to be popping up with a lot of suggestions and ideas lately and we can't keep saying no over people who are PC. We need to find workarounds that works for people who are PC and people who are not PC. The world does not revolved around either, so there needs to be a middle ground, and having the ability to create your own flag based off simple creation tools is the only viable option.

And ugh...the infamous /JRANGER....he was such a troll and was only known for being a troll. I truly wish people would forget that moron. He wasn't exactly the brightest crayon in the box.  😄

Edited June 24, 2020 by Solarverse
missed ending quotations

[golstat2003]

13 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

The problem is, is that people want them. The people that want them are being shut down with primarily PC reasons...reasons that not everyone agrees with. So in order to come up with a viable solution that does not require the Devs to spend endless hours putting in every flag the world has ever seen, that was the only possible viable and inclusive solution. People worrying about, "Well, what if they created penises or vaginas?" were basically answered with, "That's what the report function is for." I remember the same concerns being brought up with AE when it was talked about all those years ago, and it wasn't as big of an issue as people made it out to be then either.

We can't keep shutting down ideas over PC reasons. PC issues seem to be popping up with a lot of suggestions and ideas lately and we can't keep saying no over people who are PC. We need to find workarounds that works for people who are PC and people who are not PC. The world does not revolved around either, so there needs to be a middle ground, and having the ability to create your own flag based off simple creation tools is the only viable option.

And ugh...the infamous /JRANGER....he was such a troll and was only known for being a troll. I truly wish people would forget that moron. He wasn't exactly the brightest crayon in the box.  😄

Which is why I said, IF it's only visible to the people who see the flag then fine. If it's visible to other folks no. The issue wasn't something crass. The issue was something that could be interpenetrated as racist. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by golstat2003

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Which is why I said, IF it's only visible to the people who see the flag then fine. If it's visible to other folks no. The issue wasn't something crass. The issue was something that could be interpenetrated as racist. 

Wait, you don't have your racist force field?  😄

In all seriousness, I hear ya, man. I just don't think offensive flags will be too much of an issue. Maybe if we had a system where they could be reviewed before implemented that would help. It would be worth it to players to wait a couple of weeks to have their flag reviewed before being allowed to add it to the costume. At least I wouldn't mind. It's seems like a lot, but at the same time, I think worth the effort.

[ZacKing]

28 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

The issue was something that could be interpenetrated as racist. 

there's Native American symbols in the game right now and no one is saying they're racist and should be removed.  Hammer and sickle is in the game was used on the flag of one of the worst most oppressive deadly regimes in human history.  No one complaining to remove it.  I think people are getting way too wrapped up in being PC about every little thing. 

 

 

[golstat2003]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Wait, you don't have your racist force field?  😄

In all seriousness, I hear ya, man. I just don't think offensive flags will be too much of an issue. Maybe if we had a system where they could be reviewed before implemented that would help. It would be worth it to players to wait a couple of weeks to have their flag reviewed before being allowed to add it to the costume. At least I wouldn't mind. It's seems like a lot, but at the same time, I think worth the effort.

Actually that's not a bad idea. A review process would be a good screening tool.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, ZacKing said:

there's Native American symbols in the game right now and no one is saying they're racist and should be removed.  Hammer and sickle is in the game was used on the flag of one of the worst most oppressive deadly regimes in human history.  No one complaining to remove it.  I think people are getting way too wrapped up in being PC about every little thing. 

 

 

Yeahhhhh no. I'll just leave this comment here to stand on it's own. Have fun.

[ShardWarrior]

8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Yeahhhhh no. I'll just leave this comment here to stand on it's own. Have fun.

It is a fair point that there are several symbols already in the game that are culturally insensitive or inappropriate by todays standards and there are no calls to remove them or complaints. 

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

It is a fair point that there are several symbols already in the game that are culturally insensitive or inappropriate by todays standards and there are no calls to remove them or complaints. 

Doesn't mean we should open the avenue to add more or ones that are EVEN MORE intolerant.

 

With that said a review process that was mentioned above would prevent this, as it would give HC a chance to screen them.

[AerialAssault]

Only as long as the best country ever to exist in all of history (even the bad parts) gets representation.

 

[ShardWarrior]

10 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Doesn't mean we should open the avenue to add more or ones that are EVEN MORE intolerant.

So a little intolerance and cultural appropriation is acceptable?  Just want to make sure I understand you here. 

[ZacKing]

11 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Doesn't mean we should open the avenue to add more or ones that are EVEN MORE intolerant.

where are you drawing the "intolerant" line??

 

This symbol exists in the game right now

 

Do the research it's a symbol that represents regimes that are and have been more intolerant, more oppressive and have murdered more people numbering in the hundreds of millions than just about any other regime in all of human history.  You have no problem with this but have a problem with someone wanting the Union Jack, il Tricolore, flag of India or flag from some other country because those might offend someone???

 

There are zero calls for the hammer and sickle symbol to be removed from the game.  people are using it to make themed characters and share costumes over in the costume threads.  no reason to believe flags of countries in the UN are going to cause problems.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

where are you drawing the "intolerant" line??

 

This symbol exists in the game right now

 

Do the research it's a symbol that represents regimes that are and have been more intolerant, more oppressive and have murdered more people numbering in the hundreds of millions than just about any other regime in all of human history.  You have no problem with this but have a problem with someone wanting the Union Jack, il Tricolore, flag of India or flag from some other country because those might offend someone???

 

There are zero calls for the hammer and sickle symbol to be removed from the game.  people are using it to make themed characters and share costumes over in the costume threads.  no reason to believe flags of countries in the UN are going to cause problems.

Now I am naught but a simple lad born in the U.S. of ol A. And even I know that the red menace was a product of fear mongering by politicians. Yes we understand that Stalin did some terrible things and killed more of his own people then both world wars combined. However and this is the part that will confuse most of my fellow citizens, in Russia then and now, That symbol is not seen in the way we see the confederate flag here in the U.S. The Stalin era is still held up by many as Russias last golden age. Many still tattoo his face on their bodies there.

 

Basically your seeing it as bad because of the whole cold war rivalry thing. For many there it is as much a symbol of their national pride to a degree most putting the stars and stripes on their bumpers here could not even begin to imagine. And this may blow your mind further but the hammer and sickles meaning as a symbol has never changed, it is meant to represent the union, the natural need for the peasant or farming/ranching caste and the factory workers or to put it in more modern terms the urban manufacturing caste. That a society is built upon these 2 factions. That the wealthy elite that do not build, nor grow that which we live in or eat are not actually useful or needed by society, and should not be the ones to govern the people.

 

The wall came down in 89, and the war was cold before that for decades. Let go of the red hate already.

[Davy]

10 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Now I am naught but a simple lad born in the U.S. of ol A. And even I know that the red menace was a product of fear mongering by politicians. Yes we understand that Stalin did some terrible things and killed more of his own people then both world wars combined. However and this is the part that will confuse most of my fellow citizens, in Russia then and now, That symbol is not seen in the way we see the confederate flag here in the U.S. The Stalin era is still held up by many as Russias last golden age. Many still tattoo his face on their bodies there.

 

Basically your seeing it as bad because of the whole cold war rivalry thing. For many there it is as much a symbol of their national pride to a degree most putting the stars and stripes on their bumpers here could not even begin to imagine. And this may blow your mind further but the hammer and sickles meaning as a symbol has never changed, it is meant to represent the union, the natural need for the peasant or farming/ranching caste and the factory workers or to put it in more modern terms the urban manufacturing caste. That a society is built upon these 2 factions. That the wealthy elite that do not build, nor grow that which we live in or eat are not actually useful or needed by society, and should not be the ones to govern the people.

 

The wall came down in 89, and the war was cold before that for decades. Let go of the red hate already.

[Harpsong]

 

You know, for people claiming not to defend certain historic individuals... I'm seeing a lot of defending going on later in the same posts.

 

Either way though, this is a game where we can play Villains, as well as Heroes, allowing the playerbase to effective demonize or lionize anything that is available in the costume creator.

I can just as easily make a corrupt, evil warmonger soldier Villain in a very patriotic American costume, or the same character in the same costume as a heroic fighter defending the free world.

 

This means that anything in the game's costume creator is effectively subject to the whims of the players, regardless of what it may represent in real life. The Hammer and Sickle, for example, could be on the chest of 'Red Dread' the wicked, evil soviet villain, or it could be 'Captain Communist', someone's unapologetic avatar of 'actually Communism can be a good thing' lived out vicariously within the game.

 

You talk at length about how a symbol may be offensive to some people, but symbols are only given meaning by society's perceptions, informed by history and personal bias, and many symbols, as Mr. Berkeley points out, will have their suppourters as well as their detractors.

 

So if you want to view this conundrum as a community, there's only three viable options: Allow all symbols to be included, regardless of who they may offend. Remove any and all content that anybody claims is offensive, or only allow items to be included based on some kind of proportional voting system, where mob rule decides what content is allowed and what is deemed too offensive.

 

Or, people can keep on arguing about what they think and feel, and wave their little flags and shout at each-other until the thread is locked.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Harpsong

[AerialAssault]

Is this really the time and place to be discussing "X person/regime may have killed millions, but really they weren't that bad of a person/regime."?

 

Someone wants to wear a flag as a cape, or on their chest. It's a common trope present in comic books, and last I checked, City of Heroes is a comic-book influenced game.

 

If someone wants to be a [insert]-ist jerk about it, then that's why we have GMs. I would, however, say that any flag emblems/capes should be limited to current national governments and NOT organisations, military banners, provincial flags etc. Nobody actually needs a Devon (UK)* flag.

 

*my apologies go out to any residents of Devon (UK), it was not my intention to single you out 

[Davy]

6 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

Someone wants to wear a flag as a cape, or on their chest. It's a common trope present in comic books, and last I checked, City of Heroes is a comic-book influenced game.

It's already in City of Heroes as well. Hero 1 is a thing and he has both a Union Jack cape and helmet.

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Yes we understand that Stalin did some terrible things and killed more of his own people then both world wars combined.

Exactly and that symbol was used on the flag to represent that regime yet its still allowed with no one complaining or campaigning for its removal.  And it wasn't just Stalin and Russia that used it on a flag.  It's been used by other countries all over the world who have done terrible stuff.

 

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

For many there it is as much a symbol of their national pride to a degree most putting the stars and stripes on their bumpers here could not even begin to imagine.

So are any other flags of countries in the UN but for some reason, these are a no no because adding them would be intolerant?? 

Edited June 25, 2020 by ZacKing

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Basically your seeing it as bad because of the whole cold war rivalry thing. For many there it is as much a symbol of their national pride to a degree most putting the stars and stripes on their bumpers here could not even begin to imagine. And this may blow your mind further but the hammer and sickles meaning as a symbol has never changed, it is meant to represent the union, the natural need for the peasant or farming/ranching caste and the factory workers or to put it in more modern terms the urban manufacturing caste. That a society is built upon these 2 factions. That the wealthy elite that do not build, nor grow that which we live in or eat are not actually useful or needed by society, and should not be the ones to govern the people.

Could the same not be said for the swastika?  The meaning of it has not changed in Hinduism or Buddhism yet I very much doubt you will find anyone wanting it included in the game.

[Alchemystic]

Commies are staple of superhero fantasy