Powers that would need to change if Hasten gets nerfed

[ZeeHero]

The main issue with rage is the crash. 

 

I dont mind changes to the powers so long as they maintain the fun feel and effectiveness, and general use. Hasten is needed to perma most things- and usually needed for Perma Dom mind you- without perma dom, doms are kinda bad post domination nerf.

 

therefore hasten isn't a problem, changing it without changing a lot of others things is.

[Zepp]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

I think you mean the zero powers that do.

 

No powers rely on Hasten. Some peoples' playstyles lean on it heavily. If a power or powerset actually *relied* on hasten, its recharge would be adjusted or there would be a Hasten-type power in the powerset.

 

All this is complaining about something that isn't even in the works.

It is not "complaining" rather than making transparent the cost of such a nerf that has been called for on multiple threads. There are, at a minimum, several dozen keystone powers that are beyond the reach of non-hasten builds. This means they are powers that define sets that ought to be perma-able, but just are not without hasten.

 

As I have stated, and part of the point of this thread, nerfing Hasten is a bad idea. I don't see the need for making it inherent as most builds are better without it. My position is Hasten should not be changed. If Hasten were to be changed, the several dozen keystone powers, at a minimum, would need to be altered.

[Greycat]

18 minutes ago, Zepp said:

It is not "complaining" rather than making transparent the cost of such a nerf that has been called for on multiple threads. There are, at a minimum, several dozen keystone powers that are beyond the reach of non-hasten builds. This means they are powers that define sets that ought to be perma-able, but just are not without hasten.

 

As I have stated, and part of the point of this thread, nerfing Hasten is a bad idea. I don't see the need for making it inherent as most builds are better without it. My position is Hasten should not be changed. If Hasten were to be changed, the several dozen keystone powers, at a minimum, would need to be altered.

It's a "nerf" that isn't even being considered. Nor is making it inherent. Not everything "called for" gets put in the game. *Most* things don't.

 

All this thread is doing is getting some people unneccesarily worked up over something that isn't happening.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, ZeeHero said:

The main issue with rage is the crash. 

And removing the crash doesn't fix the other mediocre powers in the set similarly how nerfing Hasten doesn't fix "needing" it or making it inherent solves build woes.

[ZeeHero]

8 minutes ago, Naraka said:

And removing the crash doesn't fix the other mediocre powers in the set similarly how nerfing Hasten doesn't fix "needing" it or making it inherent solves build woes.

No, but thats irrelevant, the problem with a crash that severe is the crash itself. its pretty terrible design. theres a reason powers like Nova no longer do, but the fixes arent done.

[ScarySai]

Nerfing hasten would be probably the single worst power change they could possibly do.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Nerfing hasten would be probably the single worst power change they could possibly do.

Even if it was shifted into the base? By which I mean: decrease recharge of all powers by 20% but reduce Hasten benefits by a similar amount. Even reducing it by 30% would result in Hasten providing a larger relative benefit, but with objectively less impact (and thus necessity) to a build.

 

This is just me being curious. I'm not really on board with nerfing Hasten today -- I'd rather focus on a Dominator revamp and a minor ding to PPM, as those are the left and right fangs of Hasten anyway.

[ScarySai]

I'm against nerfing anything, especially something like hasten, which is massively important to high-end builds. Focus should be on bringing old dumpster fires like regen in line, and making commonly skipped powers more enticing. Realistically, the only way to 'fix' hasten would be to give it the fitness treatment and just give it to everyone, or raise the pool cap so people can just take the 'mandatory' powers while still being able to have a flavor ability or two of their choice.

 

Same reason I'd be scared of a dominator rework, nerfing permadom would be awful. I'd rather they buff controllers. So yes, I'd be 3000% against nerfing hasten, and cautious of dominator changes. 

 

For your idea specifically, hasten is still going to be required in the builds that need it (read: all of them.), all that happens is that people without hasten might notice a slight difference when leveling.  The work and attention that would be required to make a recharge overhaul work and not cripple tons of sets would be incredible - and I have zero faith in such a thing being done well, even if Powerhouse wasn't involved at all.

 

Nerfing hasten would cause more problems than it would solve.

Edited April 15, 2020 by ScarySai

[Galaxy Brain]

30 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I'm against nerfing anything, especially something like hasten, which is massively important to high-end builds. Focus should be on bringing old dumpster fires like regen in line, and making commonly skipped powers more enticing. Realistically, the only way to 'fix' hasten would be to give it the fitness treatment and just give it to everyone, or raise the pool cap so people can just take the 'mandatory' powers while still being able to have a flavor ability or two of their choice.

 

Same reason I'd be scared of a dominator rework, nerfing permadom would be awful. I'd rather they buff controllers. So yes, I'd be 3000% against nerfing hasten, and cautious of dominator changes. 

 

For your idea specifically, hasten is still going to be required in the builds that need it (read: all of them.), all that happens is that people without hasten might notice a slight difference when leveling.  The work and attention that would be required to make a recharge overhaul work and not cripple tons of sets would be incredible - and I have zero faith in such a thing being done well, even if Powerhouse wasn't involved at all.

 

Nerfing hasten would cause more problems than it would solve.

Nerfing Hasten in a vacuum, sure. 

 

Nerfing Hasten + adjusting other things theoretically to account for this? Probably the same net performance.

[ScarySai]

16 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Nerfing Hasten + adjusting other things theoretically to account for this? Probably the same net performance.

Granting this, as a best case scenario: If nerfed hasten is still needed to max out certain builds, then the change is entirely pointless.

 

At worst, you just kill build diversity, rather than add to it, either due to PPM, faulty math, new bugs, or perhaps them deciding to nerf certain powers while they're adjusting everything.

 

Resources are better spent on things that would make the game more fun. Don't fix what isn't broken.

Edited April 15, 2020 by ScarySai

[Naraka]

18 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

No, but thats irrelevant, the problem with a crash that severe is the crash itself. its pretty terrible design. theres a reason powers like Nova no longer do, but the fixes arent done.

Nova no longer do?  Do what?  Crash?

 

There were tier 9 nukes designed without a crash, removing the crash has just created a different issue with regards to balancing them.

 

And the reason Rage has a crash in the first place is because the buff it provides is so good.  And the buff Rage provides is so good is why the set is held in the gutter without that buff.

[Rathulfr]

6 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Granting this, as a best case scenario: If nerfed hasten is still needed to max out certain builds, then the change is entirely pointless.

Not entirely pointless: if all they did was make Hasten an Inherent auto power (instead of a click), then that would open up an entire power pool for those builds where Hasten is the only power picked from that pool (it is in many of my builds, because I don't like Super Speed or the other powers in that pool).

 

It would also increase everyone's recharge across the board, giving everyone a bit more flexibility in their build choices.  Not everyone picks Hasten for perma(blank): some folks just take it for more recharge than they can get from IO set bonuses alone.  Giving everyone that +recharge allows them to reconsider their set bonuses and might allow some to diversify a bit more.

 

Of course, this would continue to contribute to power creep across the board, too.  Which many can argue is a bad thing.  I am just commenting that changing how Hasten works wouldn't necessarily be "pointless".

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Zepp]

10 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Not entirely pointless: if all they did was make Hasten an Inherent auto power (instead of a click), then that would open up an entire power pool for those builds where Hasten is the only power picked from that pool (it is in many of my builds, because I don't like Super Speed or the other powers in that pool).

 

It would also increase everyone's recharge across the board, giving everyone a bit more flexibility in their build choices.  Not everyone picks Hasten for perma(blank): some folks just take it for more recharge than they can get from IO set bonuses alone.  Giving everyone that +recharge allows them to reconsider their set bonuses and might allow some to diversify a bit more.

 

Of course, this would continue to contribute to power creep across the board, too.  Which many can argue is a bad thing.  I am just commenting that changing how Hasten works wouldn't necessarily be "pointless".

 

Changing it to an inherent auto-power would likely result in a significant reduction to the Recharge available from Hasten (probably from 70 to 20), which would be a boon for DPS builds but would be extremely harsh to a number of Troller, Fender, and Dom builds that would no longer have access to the ability to perm keystone powers.

[Rathulfr]

13 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Changing it to an inherent auto-power would likely result in a significant reduction to the Recharge available from Hasten (probably from 70 to 20), which would be a boon for DPS builds but would be extremely harsh to a number of Troller, Fender, and Dom builds that would no longer have access to the ability to perm keystone powers.

 

Agreed, if they took it that far.  I was discussing from the perspective of "any change to Hasten that would have no net nerf effect to recharge".  In other words, if they simply moved Hasten to Fitness and left it at +50-70% recharge, so that it would no net effect on anyone's perma(blank) builds.

 

If the net result didn't negatively affect perma(blank) builds, changing Hasten would still have other benefits that made it worthwhile, such as giving us more IO set slot flexibility or the functional equivalent a "fifth" power pool.

 

In fact, this is what I was looking for when I suggested they add +15% recharge to Swift and "nerf" (gulp!) Hasten to +50% recharge to compensate, a few months ago.  The intent was to buff +recharge for everyone across the board, without really "nerfing" anyone's Hasten-centric/perma(blank) builds.  I figured that +15% Swift combined with +50% Hasten was a good compromise solution with no net-negative effect on anyone.  But I'm not a math whiz, so I admitted I could be wrong about that. I figured we could let the smarter folks figure out the best balance of Swift+Hasten to get to the same net effect.

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Rathulfr

[ZeeHero]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

Nova no longer do?  Do what?  Crash?

 

There were tier 9 nukes designed without a crash, removing the crash has just created a different issue with regards to balancing them.

 

And the reason Rage has a crash in the first place is because the buff it provides is so good.  And the buff Rage provides is so good is why the set is held in the gutter without that buff.

If they made the buff not as good, but removed the crash, depending on the numbers adjusted it could be the same dps as pre change.