Flex Lvl Scale for Missions / Arcs

[Ultimate15]

...I have a queeeeeeestion that has PROBABLY already been asked / answered before, so my apologies for the repetitiveness. How possible would it be to add a leveling scale for ALL missions and arcs, so you could run through any contact at any lvl? I.e. you could do the Frostfire mission arc at lvl 50, or something. Has that ever been considered? It would only be for the actual missions themselves. Those enemies in the typical zones would just stay at whatever zone cap their set to, but for the actual missions via the contacts, they would be set to your lvl / your mission difficulty setting. 

I feel like that could really increase content play-thru across the board. It seems like lots of people now (including myself) only wanna play their toons once they're at lvl 50 and slotted up.... but if given the option, they'd totally run those lower level missions if given the chance. I don't know how realistic this would be, or how obtainable... but I'd love to see it! 

[Psyonico]

So... The problem with this is groups like Hellions only scale up to about 10, after that they would just be too easy, almost every group would need an overhaul to be able to do this.

[Ultimate15]

Right. I'm asking how possible it would be to just remove that in-mission lvl scale all together. Only for the contact stuff, and the mission arcs.

 

And I don't think it being 'too easy' should be reason not to do it? Or be the cause for an overhaul of the entire concept. Take Council, for example - I think they're an enemy set that's seen at a wide range of different levels, and they're def more the 'easy' types - and people love them for that! There are Council-specific PUG groups in PI all the time for that very reason haha. 

[Greycat]

Right, and what Psyonico is explaining is that some groups don't *have* a higher scale.

 

You mention the Council. If you look at them, they have different mobs at different level ranges with different abilities. It's not just that nebula gunner you saw at level 1 suddenly hitting you at level 50.

 

Mobs that have been "scaled" where they normally aren't... aren't that fun. Rikti invasions vs a level 5 something? *not* fun.

 

What would need to be done - and I believe players did it on AE on live - is not just "scale the mob," but "create even more minions, LTs, bosses, etc. for all level ranges and balance for those ranges." Which is not an insignificant amount of work if you want to do it for every group in the game.

[Ultimate15]

...Right. And what I'm asking is how feasible it would be to make certain villains at a higher scale just for the missions / story arcs, and not having to create different concepts or enemy types within the enemy set all together. Also, I agree that the reverse wouldn't be fun (is that what you were inferring w/ your Rikti invasion vs. lvl 5 something example?). I was talking moreso being able to play lower level content specific to missions / story arcs / contact stuff, at higher levels. 

 

I was utilizing the Council as an example of an enemy type that is looked at as 'easy', but people still love to play them at the higher levels - and those same lower level Council missions with the same types of range/abilities in the enemy set would be just as fun to play at 50, as they would 10, 15, 20... I don't think that just because you wouldn't think it's fun to play those same lower level missions with the same type of ranges/abilities within the enemy set, means others wouldn't. I'd love it, personally!

 

Take Frostfire, for example. That's a really low-level mission arc that could totally be transferred to a higher level, and still be just as enjoyable/challenging. There was a wide range of enemy types via the Outcasts that you saw in those missions. *shrugs* 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Ultimate15

[Greycat]

Honestly, I'm ... somewhat split on it.

 

On one hand, I like outgrowing some mobs. And there's a definite storyline progression dealing *with* outgrowing mobs (like going to trolls/family and seeing the connections from the skulls.) I'd think a level 50 powered individual would have outgrown the Skulls (even the leaders are faced down in... what, 10-15 range?) There's just not much room for growth in them. On the other hand, I *could* see higher level outcasts - or people with outcast logos/gear - showing up, at the very least as mercenaries or B-list heroes/villains.

 

I guess to me it's not just a question of level but "does it make sense for the group?" (And also, I suppose, how much overlap is there with other groups.) Hellions, for instance, are into artefacts and summoning. I could, I suppose, see a "high level hellion boss" cameo, but as a group as a whole... eh. As a level 50, I should be swatting them down. "High level luddites" don't really make a lot of sense to me, as another example.

 

I guess for me, saying "that would be fun/make sense" would be kind of a case by case basis. But that's me.

[SwitchFade]

Not feasible due to the sheer amount of work.

 

Sorry, not going to happen anytime soon.

[Oubliette_Red]

This is where AE comes in handy as a test bed for upscaled mobs. Player-created missions/arcs with custom mobs based on in-game groups. I've created custom mobs for RP mission arc back on Legacy, it is time-consuming and not as simple as it sounds, and that was for enemies that weren't based on in-game groups.

[SurfD]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:22 AM, Ultimate15 said:

...Right. And what I'm asking is how feasible it would be to make certain villains at a higher scale just for the missions / story arcs, and not having to create different concepts or enemy types within the enemy set all together.

Right, but that's the problem, as has been mentioned: Those villains simply don't HAVE that higher scale.

 

Like, take your Council example.  There are a few task forces where you run into council (citadel is a good example) and every so often you run into a minion who is like 10 levels lower than everything else in the TF.  That is because that minion has a hard cap on his level range.  He is hard coded to exist between X and Y level ranges, and even if the content he is spawned in is Y+10, he is still stuck at Y.

 

There are hundreds of mobs in the game with hard coded level ranges like that, which straight up breaks any ability to have them dynamically scale to any level you want.   The only solution would be for someone to go through every critter in the game, and make sure it had a full data set for all it's stats for level 1-54, which would likely take wayyyy more time than you might imagine.

[Tugzug]

I can't say I'm a huge fan of this idea. As was stated earlier, levels themselves don't really determine how strong enemies are--it's mostly powers and abilities. In order to make enemies satisfying for a level range, you'd basically have to code in a new enemy... actually, you'd have to make a lot for variety.

 

Furthermore, I really don't think Crey would ever bother with small fry heroes, nor would a Hellion ever pose a challenge to an incarnate. The level ranges keep the lore sane, in that respect.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Tugzug
Autocorrect!

[Greycat]

6 hours ago, Tugzug said:

Furthermore, I really don't think Crey would ever bother with small fry heroes,

.... Tangent.

I really kind of wish we DID see more Crey at low level. Remember the Outbreak tutorial? What did we see... Crey scientists working on Rikti drones. Then they vanish, aside from some billboards, until the 30s, when we're suddenly fighting (but occasionally rescuing) them. Lot of lost potential in not having them "help" heroes along the way... before finding out about the Revenant Hero project.

[Aberrant]

8 hours ago, Greycat said:

.... Tangent.

I really kind of wish we DID see more Crey at low level. Remember the Outbreak tutorial? What did we see... Crey scientists working on Rikti drones. Then they vanish, aside from some billboards, until the 30s, when we're suddenly fighting (but occasionally rescuing) them. Lot of lost potential in not having them "help" heroes along the way... before finding out about the Revenant Hero project.

I imagine at one point in CoHs original story development Hero Corps as a front for Crey trying to create a Super Hero industry would have been a bigger deal. As it stands they're only represented by two contacts and the Notoriety Field Analysts. Henry Peter Wong only has generic missions, and Colleen Saramago has one arc with no hints of an agenda. 

[Coyotedancer]

Hmm... It wouldn't solve the "only has three powers because they're natively lowbies" issue with some groups... But I wonder if it would be possible to make pretty much everything in a mission level-less like the invasion mobs are? That way you'd fight them as whatever level you happen to be. 

[ArchVileTerror]

Another option is to only add a -few- extra enemies to each faction who specialize in Buffing and enhancing the existing low level enemies.  Superior Lieutenants and Bosses, or even Elite Bosses.

Now, I know there are some players who are hard-set on firmly stating that "Hellions and Skulls should never move past level 20!" because they like the idea of "having defeated" them as a Group (there's a deeper can of worms there, but going to avoid it for now).  So, what if these supplemental forces were more like Signature Villains; big cheeses of independent factions with agendas where they exploit the weaker villain groups to their own personal advantage.  

 

Like "King Inferno" coming along and giving a bunch of Hellions flaming swords in exchange for those Hellions helping him with his personal quest for glory.

In this scenario you would add some new Hellion Lts. and Bosses with the flaming swords, who in turn would cast Forge, Warmth, and Cauterize on regular Hellion Minions, Lts., and Bosses (along with having attacks and defenses of their own).  The supportive nature of these new Sword Hellions elevate the regular Hellions and brings them to a more threatening state for higher levels of gameplay.

 

I see a lot of story-telling potential there, along with gameplay improvements, but with comparatively lower overhead than trying to flesh out a -whole- faction for later levels. 

Win-win-win.

[Tugzug]

I do like all those ideas, but they definitely require more writing and coding. My point is that if there's a good story reason to see enemy groups in new level ranges (like Tsoo getting incarnate ink to be strong foes in DA) then that's all well and good--as long as it is exactly that, a story reason, and not arbitrary new level ranges with no context.