Could Empathy get a little Healing?

[Greycat]

11 hours ago, Abysmalyxia said:

If your Empath build requires you to six slot *boxing* to get by... and this is the sort of thing you want to subject the average player to?

I would not call this a valid argument, given how many other "uber" builds require picking up powers just for set mules (recharge/bonuses.)

[Greycat]

11 hours ago, Abysmalyxia said:

The changes are done, in part, to free the Defender up to be more pro active with both their secondary (i.e. attacks) and to be able to do more than just put healing aura on auto and call it a day.

THAT type of play is not "Empathy needs fixing." That sort of play is either (A) "I'm on a Mothership raid and it brings my machine to a 10-seconds-per-frame slideshow, so at least auto'd I'm helping" or (B) "I'm lazy." (Even when I *am* soloing, HA is not on auto. I don't want to waste the endurance, nor do I want it firing just *before* I get hit.)

 

Honestly, a lot of what you're looking at (for base effects, tnot the chains) as far as soloing is already "fixable" by... having a second solo build. Don't take AP, CM, Fort, etc. Dip deeper into the pool powers, play with IOs (chance for +endurance, recovery/regen, etc. - play with converters) and as for mez protection, there are now (I believe) a couple of 4th or 5th power picks in some pools that grant it. Yes, I know "it costs inf." Inf only costs time (and a little smart selling.)

[Alchemystic]

Go play regen

[MsSmart]

I agree that empathy needs a reload

 

Especially that the dedicated job has gone away, I remember in the days of live, where a group would not there do a TF without a healer, now with IOs and Incarnate who needs one?

 

So why not give the Empath a little love and be brought up to present day mechanics? It makes sense as the OP said.

 

To me the simplest upgrade is to change all the powers that are targeted and be made Auras, this way the Empath can include herself in the goodie giving benefits and more of the team can also be helped simultaneously.

 

In fact, it would not be a bad idea, if other defender primaries could be changed in this way, for example the Storm O2 Boost could become an aura, thus giving the Stormy a means to heal more than one at a time and mez protect/break all those around her.

 

Hugs

[Auroxis]

For all those wanting RA's to turn into Passives or Toggles, please be aware that Hamidon raids heavily rely on RA stacking before spreading to succeed.

 

If you wanna make Empathy less clicky, buff CM and Fortitude's duration to 4 minutes so you could apply them to the whole team without casting every 15 seconds. It would also let you apply PB Fort to the whole team if you invest into it, rivaling Time's Farsight.

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, MsSmart said:

Especially that the dedicated job has gone away, I remember in the days of live, where a group would not there do a TF without a healer

Those teams still exist... They're called bad teams.

 

I started playing near the end of I6, a Mind/FF Controller.  I quickly learned that unlike other games that I had played healing wasn't a necessity.  Unfortunately a lot of people didn't (and still don't) get that concept.

[MTeague]

Now I need to create an Empathy Defender this weekend.  Because my contrariness is activated and the "I can make this work no problem" is real.

 

(I do already have a Beast/Empath MM, but Daisy, Lily, Buddy, Fluffy, and Mittens make soloing a breeze for her)

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

Now I need to create an Empathy Defender this weekend.  Because my contrariness is activated and the "I can make this work no problem" is real.

 

(I do already have a Beast/Empath MM, but Daisy, Lily, Buddy, Fluffy, and Mittens make soloing a breeze for her)

I normally do the same.  Back when people were discussing Dark Armor, I had to make a DA Tanker just to see.  END costs seem high because he's running 4 extra toggles that are outside of DA but it's still manageable and seeking IO bonuses I normally don't look to (namely +Max END) is kind of refreshing.

 

That being said, I don't have the time to run an Empathy character at this time.  Someone above mentioned that some ATs and powersets are build for teaming moreso than solo and I'll agree.  Rather than making Empathy more soloable, just make it better at team performance.  Any buffs to it in that regards will likely make the set better at soloing for the soloing ATs such as Controllers and Masterminds.

[Linea]

3 hours ago, Auroxis said:

buff CM and Fortitude's duration to 4 minutes so you could apply them to the whole team without casting every 15 seconds. It would also let you apply PB Fort to the whole team if you invest into it, rivaling Time's Farsight.

CM will probably never bey AoE, but Fort could be made AoE as well, similar to the aoe upgrade to bubbles.

I would not mind if a CM alternate power pick worked like the EAfn bubble.   But I know the devs have said they really don't like alternate power picks.

[Psyonico]

There are no Clear Mind like powers that are AoE (Even Increase Density isn't, only the resist damage is AoE).  I don't see that changing in the near future.

 

As for fortitude, If it gets changed to an AoE it would have to get nerfed pretty bad.  Bubbles/SB/etc were already capable of being cast on the whole team, which is why it didn't matter.  Fortitude can only be kept on 3 maybe 4 targets (and that takes a lot of recharge)

[Abysmalyxia]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

THAT type of play is not "Empathy needs fixing." That sort of play is either (A) "I'm on a Mothership raid and it brings my machine to a 10-seconds-per-frame slideshow, so at least auto'd I'm helping" or (B) "I'm lazy." (Even when I *am* soloing, HA is not on auto. I don't want to waste the endurance, nor do I want it firing just *before* I get hit.)

 

Honestly, a lot of what you're looking at (for base effects, tnot the chains) as far as soloing is already "fixable" by... having a second solo build. Don't take AP, CM, Fort, etc. Dip deeper into the pool powers, play with IOs (chance for +endurance, recovery/regen, etc. - play with converters) and as for mez protection, there are now (I believe) a couple of 4th or 5th power picks in some pools that grant it. Yes, I know "it costs inf." Inf only costs time (and a little smart selling.)

The type of play where a player utilizes their entire character rather than half of it because that half is so entirely consuming that the other half isn't worth investing in?

[Abysmalyxia]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

Now I need to create an Empathy Defender this weekend.  Because my contrariness is activated and the "I can make this work no problem" is real.

 

(I do already have a Beast/Empath MM, but Daisy, Lily, Buddy, Fluffy, and Mittens make soloing a breeze for her)

Play that empathy defender but try to utilize the entire character. Don't be a "Healbot" be a proactive member of the offense as well. A FF Bubbler that put up bubbles and called it a day would get laughed at. So that FF Bubbler is expected to contribute to the offense. Keep in mind this is the standard way of things. Every other Defender is expected to have a direct impact on the enemy either by using their primary to debuff/control or in some other offensive manner, or use their secondary for that purpose. The only powerset we make an exemption for is Empathy. So go ahead and play your offense oriented empath (again, just like every other playset). Let me know how it rolls.

[Abysmalyxia]

37 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

There are no Clear Mind like powers that are AoE (Even Increase Density isn't, only the resist damage is AoE).  I don't see that changing in the near future.

 

As for fortitude, If it gets changed to an AoE it would have to get nerfed pretty bad.  Bubbles/SB/etc were already capable of being cast on the whole team, which is why it didn't matter.  Fortitude can only be kept on 3 maybe 4 targets (and that takes a lot of recharge)

Did you read my suggestion? First, because there are clear mind like powers that are AoE. Force Field's Bubble Toggle serves many of the exact same functions as Clear Mind.

[Abysmalyxia]

3 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Those teams still exist... They're called bad teams.

 

I started playing near the end of I6, a Mind/FF Controller.  I quickly learned that unlike other games that I had played healing wasn't a necessity.  Unfortunately a lot of people didn't (and still don't) get that concept.

This is why I point to D&D as a great example. Healing is the *least* efficient manner of keeping someone alive.

[Auroxis]

4 minutes ago, Abysmalyxia said:

Did you read my suggestion? First, because there are clear mind like powers that are AoE. Force Field's Bubble Toggle serves many of the exact same functions as Clear Mind.

To make Clear Mind AoE exactly the same as Dispersion Field you'd have to remove it stacking from the same caster, which is actually a useful function in the ITF (and in the GW fight in STF, though power creep made that mostly irrelevant).

 

Also let's not try to make Force Field a lot worse in comparison, the effortless league-wide CC protection is one of the few things it has over other defense buff sets (one of which is Empathy).

[Psyonico]

21 minutes ago, Abysmalyxia said:

Did you read my suggestion? First, because there are clear mind like powers that are AoE. Force Field's Bubble Toggle serves many of the exact same functions as Clear Mind.

Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion also have a Sleep hole... would you like that added to Clear Mind?

[MTeague]

43 minutes ago, Abysmalyxia said:

Play that empathy defender but try to utilize the entire character. Don't be a "Healbot" be a proactive member of the offense as well. A FF Bubbler that put up bubbles and called it a day would get laughed at. So that FF Bubbler is expected to contribute to the offense. Keep in mind this is the standard way of things. Every other Defender is expected to have a direct impact on the enemy either by using their primary to debuff/control or in some other offensive manner, or use their secondary for that purpose. The only powerset we make an exemption for is Empathy. So go ahead and play your offense oriented empath (again, just like every other playset). Let me know how it rolls.

Absolutely.  I despise the term "Healer" to refer to an Empath Defender as if only the first 3 powers of the set matter. 

 

Even on my Beast / Emp MM, I use every buff I have, and that character also uses Kick/Boxing/Crosspunch to go right in meleeing with her pets.

I prioritize keeping the buffs going, but I do not do healbots.

[TheWino]

21 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

22 hours ago, Linea said:

Green Machines can wreak havoc even on SO only builds. 

Let's be honest. 'Havoc' on SOs? I'd LOVE to see an SO, non incarnate emp solo the itf. At +4.

 

The havoc Linea mentioned being wreaked wasn't solo havoc.

[Greycat]

28 minutes ago, TheWino said:

The havoc Linea mentioned being wreaked wasn't solo havoc.

Not with the Green Machines, no. 🙂  "Turning Empathy/ defenders into Regen blasters." Fun to play with.

[Razor Cure]

What about more power interactions? Like...you use Absorb Pain on someone, 'empathize' with them as it were, and if they have CM applied to them already, that CM gets shared through the empathic link? That would encourgae people to actually use CM, and with the risk of AP, for the benefit of self mez prot.

Granted, that wouldn't do much solo (unless you AP a wisp pet, which would be as annoyign as the elec heal).

[Linea]

Quote

... as annoyign as the elec heal ...

The EAfn design is genius.  It props SO builds up, while simultaneously holding the excesses of Tier 4 IO builds back.

[Outrider_01]

OP says something about Empathy being difficult to solo....

 

Device says hi, smokegrenade (weak)/tripmine/timebomb/gun drone being useless in a group.  Taser is questionable in utility, with kthxbai! kill power of AoE for up to normal bosses who die to everyone's attacks.  Caltrops, meh works but kinda pointless at the same time and at least Web grenade now does damage.  Self buffs are kinda obvious at the top of the useful list.

 

Polar opposites, match made in heaven.  Empathy/Device Hero!  Only one power set works solo and the other power set works in a group.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Outrider_01

[skoryy]

On 5/8/2020 at 8:30 AM, MsSmart said:

I remember in the days of live, where a group would not there do a TF without a healer, now with IOs and Incarnate who needs one?

Those of us who exemplar a lot?  Heck, as an Ill/Sonic main, heals help keep me and my poor phantasm from faceplanting even at 50.

[Doomguide2005]

On 5/7/2020 at 8:11 PM, Razor Cure said:

Let's be honest. 'Havoc' on SOs? I'd LOVE to see an SO, non incarnate emp solo the itf. At +4.

 

Have you ever been on a full (or nearly so) Green Machine team?

 

Having been on such teams I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a full GM team wreaked havoc on your average Incarnate lvl 50 builds while unslotted.  They'd slaughter a great deal of existing lvl 50 content.  Empaths trade their solo ability for some very potent single target buffs.  Fortitude is not just defense and to hit, but a damage buff, Adrenaline Boost is not only a large buff to regen and recovery, but a large recharge buff packed with large resists to recharge related debuffs.  About the only thing I've seen slow them down much is other teamed empaths.  Do I think they are as needed for league/team post 50 content as other defender sets?  Arguably not, but I see no reason based on that to alter those potent buffs since I can solo.  We've got multiple builds to use.  If I want to solo "scrapper-style" lvl 54 Rikti mobs or the ITF I can put that alternate build to use.

[Razor Cure]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Have you ever been on a full (or nearly so) Green Machine team?

Yeah. I did an all emp ITF back on Live. Not +4, but WITH everyone IOd. And it totally wasnt 'havoc.' At all. Sure, we were speeding, but havoc? Lol, no.

ANd being on a Green Machine team is hardly a measure of how good the set is solo, or on SOs.