Are Player Defenses too high

[Hardboiled Hero]

15 hours ago, Neiska said:

A pretty vague question. First off not all difficulties/ATs/activities are the same. Defense is only one small part of the overal entire aspect of the game. I would argue that CC at endgame/high level content is more impactful than having high defenses. My only complaint about defenses is it sort of pigeonholes a great number of builds into taking things like maneuvers/tough/weave just to survive. Not all mind you, just a goodly number of them.

 

Personally i think they are fine as it is. There is enough variance between cc/offense/defense/debuffs/buffs/other values that each AT really has its place. Some could use tuning certainly along with some powersets, but, you can hardly blame Defense alone for that.

  As I mentioned, I consider cc/offense/defense/debuffs/buffs/whatever, to all be tied into "defenses".  I can't ask about "survivability" though, because I'm not really asking about how often people die either.  So I'm struggling with the terminology, and I sincerely apologize for confusion stemming from that.

 

  I guess what I'm trying to get at though, is this:

   DOES every AT actually have it's place, or are some AT's "stepping on the toes" of others?

 

I get that people "want to feel like Superman"..  You know who else "Wants to feel like Superman".. well.. a lot of people, to be honest.. but mostly I'm thinking about Batman.  I'm mostly thinking about Batman because Batman actually does it.  Now Superman is super-strong, has laser-eyes and cold-breath and can do tons of damage..  but his role in the JLA is mostly to draw attention..  He's a Tank.  Very few people on the team are as durable as Superman..  Then you have Batman.. he's a normal dude.. very few people on the JLA are as feeble as Batman..  Batman still manages to solve a lot of problems for the JLA.. in fact he's often the one to accomplish missions while Supes is drawing all the aggro, so Bats undeniably has his place  (He's the team's stalker).  But then something crazy happens..  Batman decides that Superman "Is too powerful for his own good". so Batman creates the Multi-environment Armored Bat-suit.. suddenly Batman is a stalker with the survivability of the team's tank.. only no one actually focuses on Batman, so Batman becomes FAR more survivable than Superman.  Of course the Blaster (Green Arrow) sees this and calls foul.  There's no reason that another "normal human" should be every bit as survivable as Superman while Green Arrow shouldn't be.. so Green Arrow..  I dunno.. steals some secret ritual from the league of shadows in order to make himself un-killable or something..  now the blaster is every bit as survivable as batman, who is every bit as survivable as superman..  So uh..  What is Superman doing here again?

 

  What did people notice happen when tanks weren't able to aggro as many mobs..  did the game actually get harder? (I don't know, I hadn't come back long before the change)  Did people die more?  Did everyone start stacking more defenses to compensate.. or did people simply have to use the defenses that they had more?  In other words, reducing aggro could have been a "nerf" to tanks..  but do any tanks now complain about "Not being gods" because of it?  Or is it possible that certain other classes are just feeling "more like gods" because their defense powers, controls, and support actually make more of a difference now?

 

  But then something else I don't want to lose track of: We discuss teams a lot, but Solo matters too.  In their solo stories most Super-heroes seem much better, largely because the stories are tailored to their strengths and weaknesses.  As is, I feel like many characters in CoH, even those who may be great in teams, just don't have a lot of solo potential.  Force Fields are obvious here, since their powers generally can't be used on themselves or prevent them from effecting others, but this isn't really a factor for a Bubbler, because many people are "immune" to bubble buffs anyway, Making a controller or dom more survivable in solo content by, say, giving them a way to increase their survivability through the first 5-10 seconds of a fight, could  effect the group dynamics, however.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

No I dont think its arrogant, I think its true.

 

This statement comes of as internally self-disproving.  

 

I have to agree that to try and tell someone ELSE they don't understand this game when you admitted yourself you basically ONLY have played this one and its sort of successor .. but at the same time suggest you instead DO understand it .. Seems arrogant.  

 

Coyote's suggestion is an attempt to address one of the glaring aspects of high level gameplay - Nearly everyone being softcapped to S/L or Ranged at a minimum - By making it harder for that to happen.   Identified problem.  Suggestion directly aimed at that problem.  

 

To me that suggests a better understanding of the issue than to suggest that simply having optional extra difficulty will actually solve the problem.  But frankly I don't think you actually believe there *IS* a problem.  And from my perspective your suggestion is more a token to attempt to placate complainers.  Since you practically said as much last night saying how old the complaining was getting.  

 

I don't think your viewpoint is unique at all.  In fact I think most people do not want the game to be harder.  Thus I see this as pointless.  We should just leave things how they are. 

 

But its not because the "complainers" don't understand the game.   Many probably understand the game .. as a game .. very well.   If its something they don't understand perhaps its the popularity contest politics of the game, which is the authority you actually seem to be appealing to.   

 

 

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

No, they have not.

Other suggestions have been given for raising difficulty against tuned characters.

But that's not what I want. What I want is a better balance for set bonuses, so that building for Recharge and/or Defense is not so clearly better than building for +Special or +Damage.

Those who are offering other suggestions are doing fine, for what THEY are trying to solve, which is difficulty. I'm trying to solve a balance problem in IO sets, and that's not going to be solved by introducing more interesting mobs to the Freakshow, though that WOULD be cool.

 

Oh, and... I've pointed this out multiple times in the thread. Which is why I got snarky enough to say that people aren't reading what I'm writing, they're just kneejerking reactions with "don't touch my IO set values and nerf my character!" without bothering to see what I'm talking about.

Then make +Special or +Damage more attractive or give different level 5 or 6 set bonuses for slotting those type of IO sets.

There are better suggestions and ideas than reducing defense.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

 

I don't think your viewpoint is unique at all.  In fact I think most people do not want the game to be harder.  Thus I see this as pointless.  We should just leave things how they are. 

 

 

 

 

/Thread. Seriously every single one of these "to make the game more balanced" suggestions eventually boils down to this.

 

You will never get agreement amount most or even less than half of the community on game difficulty.

You will never (unless the game goes legit again) have the resources to do the balance pass that some wish.

You will never (unless the game goes legit again) have the resources to do the a separate shard with a different rule set, or higher level difficulty options with changes and rewards that matter.

 

Leaving things mostly as is is the optimal solution for now. People can leave their suggests we can have fun discussing and file them away for if the game ever goes legit again.

 

EDIT: I think the results of the poll indicate the kind of push back the devs of HC would get if they suggested this to the larger gaming pop on these servers.

Edited May 21, 2020 by golstat2003

[Sovera]

One thing I have not seen brought up is how nerfing stuff does not jive with the concept of CoH being trinity free. While at its base level trinity means  tanker, damage, healer, what it boils down to is nothing cannot be achieve if these three are not present.

 

Once enough nerfing happens we stop being carefree grab-eight-warm-bodies-no-matter-AT-or-level-and-LETS-DO-DIS to 'need tank, need bubbler, two controllers to alternate holds and two blasters to alternate nukes (fire please). Also need two scrappers (TW please)'.

 

A third tank? A third controller? A niche defender?  Yeeeah, not seeing it.

 

Like others this is why I advocate difficulty slider options (WITH PROPER REWARDS). Most people don't want to mess with it and want to play Path of Exile MMO style (room fulls of enemies zapped with one hit) then they can. And those who want to engage in Mythic+ (dungeons gets harder and harder the higher it goes) gameplay, well, they can as well.

 

Nerfing is just going to drag everyone in whether they are willing or not, and CoH is not a WoW. It's quite literally a Path of Exile with large numbers of soft targets we decimate with a few hits, this is what the game has as an appeal.

[Neiska]

@Hardboiled Hero - then let us have a mutually respectful discussion and thought experiment.

 

Firstly, we agree that team and solo play should be considered. However I would also like to point out that by your argument, the same case could be made for Damage, or Crowd control effects. But lets consider your example "batman stalker".

 

So for our experiment, lets consider him a defense softcapped stalker. I would point out that this mainly benefits only himself. He certainly doesn't have the aggro capability to hold packs of spawns for the entire team, particularly when speed running missions. If anything, his own defenses makes the job of keeping him healthy easier for healers/buffers if he is teamed with such people. Now on a smaller team, say 2-3 people sure he might be good to eat the alpha strike. But I doubt that he will be tanking incarnate content and so on. So "superman" still has a need and role.

 

Another thing I would like to highlight is that the number of people playing the game, vastly outnumber the people working on it. Which means there are far more people trying new things, finding new things (even to this day) and so on. There simply are more people doing things than they might have considered or thought possible.

 

An example of this would be my own recent revelation with AE maps. People like to talk about brutes and scrappers, but for me my fastest map clearer isnt even a "Farmer". Specifically, on a small map such as the moon map. For me the quickest character I can clear it with surprisingly turned out to be my Mastermind. I am in no way saying my masterminds damage is anywhere near a brute or scrappers. However what it can do is bypass one key game mechanic that no "farming build" can - the aggro cap.

 

It turns out that each Pet has its own aggro table. So, for arguments sake, lets say the most that Brute or Farmer can aggro at a time is 17 mobs. Well, I have 6 pets, each with their own aggro list. It isn't known exactly how many mobs a pet can aggro, but its quite substantial.  So the brute fights 2 packs of 8 (16 total) enemies each at a time, where the MM can aggro and engage more than half the map - 5-7 packs of 8 (40+) enemies each, at a time. Its not a damage ratio, its a "how many can you fight at a time" ratio. So even though my damage per second is no where near the brutes, I still come out ahead in the end in terms of map clearing speed, simply because I can engage more than half the map within the first 10 seconds.

 

Now, I only bring this up to illustrate a point. No one in their right mind is going to argue that Masterminds are more powerful than brutes or scrappers and deserve a nerf. Its creative "outside the box" thinking. You can apply this logic to nearly ever AT. Each AT has its own set of circumstances where it shines. Controllers have immortal pets that can be permanent. Tankers and Brutes can go full AFK when farming. Stalkers can skip entire missions together and stealth to the glowy at the end. A blaster can obliterate an entire spawn with 1 or 2 nuke powers and move on. Their damage, survival, CC abilities and so on are irrespective of one another.

 

So lets refocus on your example, a defense capped stalker. Well, great for him. What can he do with it? Will it give him an unfair advantage over others? Will it let him break the game? I suspect aside from solo play, he himself will notice little difference on a team. But I am far from a stalker expert. (but I have seen some very surprisingly durable stalkers and blasters around). I feel in no way disadvantaged or penalized by people doing such builds. I am secure in my knowledge that I can do things that they cannot as well. It all depends on circumstances, difficulty level, team makeup, time/money invested in the build, and most importantly the activity type in question.

 

I just think you might be comparing apples to oranges here. People being tough is not an ill thing. People being both tough and able to deal damage is not an ill thing either. For example, I doubt that defense capped stalker can solo AVs or super monsters, where others most certainly can, even though the stalker has things like stealth or more damage. (again, I could be wrong! No idea if stalkers can do such things.)

 

I would urge you not to focus so much on the numbers, but try to focus on the overall picture. As @golstat2003 pointed out, wide sweeping changes are very unlikely anyway. And perhaps not worry so much about what other people are doing, or what their builds are capable of. If you don't want to make a defense capped toon etc, no one is certainly making you. I have many friends who play "roleplay" builds, and are having a fantastic time even if they aren't the most mathematically superior builds in the game. 

 

Just my two cents on it. Are some people out there super tough? You bet. Super strong too? Yep! Is that a bad thing? No, I don't think so. Not really. There is no one AT/Build that can "do it all". There are some that can come certainly close though. But as long as people are enjoying and still playing what is a really aged game, does it matter? This isn't a contest. There is no prize at the end. No medals to be given, no "worlds bestest COH player/build" to be had. In the end, its all about just having fun.

 

I do hope you are having fun with the game @Hardboiled Hero, truly I do. And nothing in this post is meant in any way as a personal insult or attack. I just think perhaps you might have forgotten what made this game fun. The fact its such an old game with a dedicated fan base is astounding.

 

Happy adventurers!  

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I have to agree that to try and tell someone ELSE they don't understand this game when you admitted yourself you basically ONLY have played this one and its sort of successor .. but at the same time suggest you instead DO understand it .. Seems arrogant.  

So... By playing only this game and no other MMO that invalidates me because I have never played another MMO and validates them because they have played other MMOs? 

 

Makes perfect sense 

 

Aside from the fact this is unlike any other MMO as Many others keep stating in here.

 

I'm not claiming to be an expert on OTHER MMOs I don't want this game to be like other MMOs 

 

Balance for one MMO does not mean that same balance cookie cutter style will work here.

 

It's not arrogant, it's based on nearly a years worth of non stop play, including testing new changes on beta every time they are released.

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Coyote's suggestion is an attempt to address one of the glaring aspects of high level gameplay - Nearly everyone being softcapped to S/L or Ranged at a minimum - By making it harder for that to happen.   Identified problem.  Suggestion directly aimed at that problem.  

That's where the disagreement is, it's not a prpblem.  I see it as functioning as it should.  Most of the high defense can't be achieved until level 50 when you catalyst the ATO and winter sets.  Their bonuses are reflective of the other defense bonuses that exist in other sets - including the NEW ONES HOMECOMING JUST RELEASED.  I caps that for emphasis - I'm not yelling at ya.

 

Its ONLY end game builds that achieve these numbers because of the catalyst issue at lvl 50. 

 

Can you get close with normal sets, yes - close but you will have to give something else up to do it, that you are already doing while you are pushing to 50 to convert them.

 

You gain a lot more power at 50 at that point.  None of this is an issue prior to lvl 50.

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

To me that suggests a better understanding of the issue than to suggest that simply having optional extra difficulty will actually solve the problem.  But frankly I don't think you actually believe there *IS* a problem.  And from my perspective your suggestion is more a token to attempt to placate complainers.  Since you practically said as much last night saying how old the complaining was getting.  

the extra difficulty I believe would give all these post 50 uber builds a chance to stretch their legs.

 

I am all for it and explore it as much as I could.  I actually love it when I meet a worthy enemy group/s that tests me.

 

I'm not all for making the rest of the game harder by nerfing defense or any other way because why would I want to rerun content that I'm 50% bored with only to have it last longer and have to wait on precise team make ups just to play content im already bored with?

 

Now if that same content had revamped enemies and elite bosses in it - and it was selectable as an option and not mandatory - that's interesting to me.

 

I think it would be for a lot of other people also.  I get it that you disagree here you habe been clear, and that's your opinion - you haven't given any data to back your opinion up though.

 

Ok so can someone help me here with one thing.  I suck at forum fu - have no idea how to start a poll, and don't care to learn.

 

Cam someone start a poll on who would like an Elite mode with enemies with greater to hit, exotic damage, and regular and random EB spawns.

 

Let's do that and see who is interested, if someone could help me with that please.

[Haijinx]

43 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

So... By playing only this game and no other MMO that invalidates me because I have never played another MMO and validates them because they have played other MMOs? 

 

Makes perfect sense 

 

Aside from the fact this is unlike any other MMO as Many others keep stating in here.

 

 

No.  You were the one claiming Coyote didn't understand the game.  And you said doing so was not Arrogant. 

 

Therefore the burden of proof is on you.  I simply pointed out you are in an odd place to criticize others on that score since you said you aren't familiar with other game systems. 

 

All these games are ultimately based on the Tabletop games of the past.  Heck the whole "5% minimum chance to hit and 95% maximum chance to hit" is DIRECTLY lifted from Dungeons and Dragons where a 1 always missed and a 20 always hit, no matter what the modifier. 

 

Knowing other systems, you see how they handle balance.  The whole Superhero part is just the sheetmetal.  Under the hood its a RPG game.  Modifiers, die-rolls and so on.  Just like fantasy games and Sci Fi games and all the rest.  

 

But maybe you understand the game system back and forward and RPG game theory and all the rest.  I don't know.  It would be Arrogant for me to presume to, wouldn't it? 

 

 

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

No.  You were the one claiming Coyote didn't understand the game.  And you said doing so was not Arrogant. 

 

Therefore the burden of proof is on you.  I simply pointed out you are in an odd place to criticize others on that score since you said you aren't familiar with other game systems. 

And I still think they do not based on what they are saying. Its easy to say this number is too high in a vacuum.

 

Its the equivalent of a horsepower number in a car - doesn't always equate to best performance or optimal, or undefeatable.

 

What I am saying is having SIGNIFICANT game time multiple ATs, the defense number isnt as OP as anything else in the game, and to lower it would have a detrimental effect across the entire game that would then force a revamp of the whole system.

 

A system thats working fine currently that allows diversity that would not be attainable if those changes were made.

 

If You want to kill homecoming thats how you would do it, because it affects I would wager at least 70 percent of the game population in one way or another.

 

If Elite mode is added, everyone wins.  I'm sure you will disagree there again.  But I believe you are incorrect in your assessment there too, just from all the people I know that would use that system.

 

As far as the burden of proof, ive given several examples of why it's a bad idea.  And im sure thats not good enough and you will disagree with that too, and thats ok because at that point just like your not favoring the elite mode idea is just that - your opinion.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Infinitum

[Haijinx]

58 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

I think it would be for a lot of other people also.  I get it that you disagree here you habe been clear, and that's your opinion - you haven't given any data to back your opinion up though.

 

I have only anecdotal data.  I'm just a MMO player.  Why would I have any other kind? 

 

In my experience the following is true.  

 

People will take the easiest path to get what they want for their characters in MMO games.  If Harder content is optional they will only chose that Option if given an incentive.  Typically this is either Loot they can not get elsewhere.  More Loot per Hour.  Or More Experience per Hour. 

• There are no No-drops in COH.  No special Loot really at all.  I can get everything on the market.  
• Playing the game on teams is not the best way to earn Influence 
• Experience is already super easy to get   

Specific to COH

• Anytime Ive ever run a Task Force and anyone chose any Challenge Settings no one wants anything other than a Timer or a # of Defeats (which mean nothing) 
• No one ever wants to fight the harder groups unless its the Weekly Task Force.  

 

I don't see a significant incentive being added.  Higher End Loot? More Power Creep? Even Faster XP?  Even Faster Influence?  

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I have only anecdotal data.  I'm just a MMO player.  Why would I have any other kind? 

 

In my experience the following is true.  

 

People will take the easiest path to get what they want for their characters in MMO games.  If Harder content is optional they will only chose that Option if given an incentive.  Typically this is either Loot they can not get elsewhere.  More Loot per Hour.  Or More Experience per Hour. 

• There are no No-drops in COH.  No special Loot really at all.  I can get everything on the market.  
• Playing the game on teams is not the best way to earn Influence 
• Experience is already super easy to get   

Specific to COH

• Anytime Ive ever run a Task Force and anyone chose any Challenge Settings no one wants anything other than a Timer or a # of Defeats (which mean nothing) 
• No one ever wants to fight the harder groups unless its the Weekly Task Force.  

 

I don't see a significant incentive being added.  Higher End Loot? More Power Creep? Even Faster XP?  Even Faster Influence?  

Well I figured out polling, and added one so you can go vote no now if you want.  Haha

[Hardboiled Hero]

17 minutes ago, Neiska said:

@Hardboiled Hero - then let us have a mutually respectful discussion and thought experiment.

 

Firstly, we agree that team and solo play should be considered. However I would also like to point out that by your argument, the same case could be made for Damage, or Crowd control effects. But lets consider your example "batman stalker".

 

So for our experiment, lets consider him a defense softcapped stalker. I would point out that this mainly benefits only himself. He certainly doesn't have the aggro capability to hold packs of spawns for the entire team, particularly when speed running missions. If anything, his own defenses makes the job of keeping him healthy easier for healers/buffers if he is teamed with such people. Now on a smaller team, say 2-3 people sure he might be good to eat the alpha strike. But I doubt that he will be tanking incarnate content and so on. So "superman" still has a need and role.

I'm going to get into the debate a little more, because I feel like the thread has gone on enough now that A) we probably won't get too many more votes quickly and b) enough discussion has been had that people whoever does decide to vote still may already have their opinion swayed, if they were so inclined.

 

  I'm not having an argument.. I'm having a discussion (with the difference being that I'm wondering about a point, not trying to prove a point).. and I've already included "Crowd Control" and "Damage" as possible "defenses".

 

  So let's say "Batman" is a soft-capped stalker..  I guess we're assuming that "Superman" is a Invulnerability Tanker, who can probably get his defense soft-capped as well, and still end up being much tougher (having better health/resists) than Batman.  Now on one hand you say that Batman having such high defenses doesn't effect anyone but Batman himself.. on the other hand you say that "Keeping him healthy (is) easier for healers/buffers if he's teamed with such people."  So Batman's survivability does have an impact on his team.  Note here though..  Keeping him healthy might be easier, but does that mean the game is easier?  Or does it simply mean that healers and buffers (and also CCers and Debuffers) get to spend less time healing and buffing?  and presumably people picked classes that have heals and buffs because they want to heal and buff. (But I'm also making an assumption there, perhaps we need another poll about what people actually want/expect from each AT.. or maybe there is one?)

 

  But I feel what you said here also raises another potential problem.  Batman can't tank certain content, so Superman is still needed.. but not all tanks (ideally) are Superman. I would LOVE to make a Super Reflexes tank..  but such a tank has the same limitations as Batman (albeit a little more health) and therefore also can't tank that content.   Now if everyone else's survival is so good that they don't need a tank in the first place, then maybe that really IS the answer.. but it doesn't exactly make the poor SR tank feel "god-like" does it?  One of the things we all love about this game is that anybody can play whatever they want..  except it just isn't true.  I want to play an SR Tanker and still feel "god-mode".  The reason I asked the question is not because I want people to feel lessened, but instead I'm wondering if things might be so out of balance here that changes could made without people really noticing a powerlevel difference.

 

  If "Batman's" defenses are lowered (generally), but certain other changes are made to other AT's, with an eye to making them more supportive, Batman still doesn't die and other AT's/Powersets get to do what they're designed to do.  In fact, Batman might even get to feel better because, while non-dps classes are spending time doing what they do, Batman gets to spend more time watching giant crit numbers pop up on his screen. (so the less dps focused characters can.. well..  focus less on dps, which allows the more focused dps characters to do more damage)  Furthermore.. when I say his defenses might be lowered "generally", what I'm really thinking is doing something like, lower Batman's defenses most of the time.. but maybe buff his stealth defenses (either by changing the numbers or finding a way for Batman to spend more time stealthed or both.)  The idea being that Batman would actually get better at quick "In and out" attacks on his own and, with the help of his team he wouldn't necessarily lose anything should he get stuck in combat a little too long. Similarly I want controller/dominators to survive the initial stages of a fight better on their own.  Instead of having everyone with soft-capped defenses all the time, I picture people having better defenses (or survivability or whatever) under certain occasions, while perhaps being more reliant on a team to cover the rest of the time..  But even in "the rest of the time"  I don't want any one type of team-mate to be necessary..  perhaps a Sentinel or scrapper might be able to off-tank, but a controller or dom could control the mobs or Buff/debuff classes could do what they do.  In solo content, a controller/dom who can survive the initial stages of combat better on their own, would have more time to establish control.. therefore they might actually find soloing easier. A Stalker who has an easier time getting in and out of combat might also be able to get in, assassin strike, and get out easily enough that they too would feel better in solo content (Not that I've had any trouble soloing with stalkers so far)

 

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Another thing I would like to highlight is that the number of people playing the game, vastly outnumber the people working on it. Which means there are far more people trying new things, finding new things (even to this day) and so on. There simply are more people doing things than they might have considered or thought possible.

  Exactly, and this is one reason why I'm hoping people can have this discussion without any fear of how what they say might impact the game.  The Homecoming staff aren't few and they're volunteers.  The absolute best we could hope for is that they'll find this poll to be fun and informative.  I fully admit that change could be bad.  The Homecoming team has no reason to think about the players.. either how big the player-base is or how happy we are.  Ultimately they're doing all of this for them and we're just happy they chose to share it with us.  So I hope this means we can all just talk honestly, without worry (but perhaps still some thought toward) what mistakes might be made or anything like that).  This is one reason that I hope we can all try to appreciate each others' points of view.

 

  On to MasterMinds: I'm glad you were able to do that.. I was kind of wondering how good of a farmer a Master Mind could be.  It may surprise you to know, though, as we speak there's a thread on the MM forums about whether MM's deserve to have their (non-pet) powers cost more endurance than everyone elses'.  Apparently, someone who had some authority actually thought that MM's were over-powered and artificially increased their endurance costs.  Honestly though, my concern wouldn't be "Is this overpowered".. my concern is more about "would it matter to me if I get teamed with a Brute, a scrapper, or a Mastermind?"..  "When I'm deciding which of my 50 some-odd characters to play, do I skip over some character because I'll have more trouble soloing, or I might not get into a team?" stuff like that..  Or even "Why did I bother making this Thugs/PD Mastermind, knowing full well that PD is useless."  Ideally, I don't want anyone to doubt whether they're "playing the right character".

 

Back to Stalkers:  There's a thread in the Stalker Froums (and I believe a similar scrapper thread) about "silly Stalker Tricks".. yes, some stalkers can solo some AV's.. but again it's not really about "Can stalkers do this" as much as it's about "Can every type of stalker do this?"

 

  Are AT's and powersets really as interchangeable as everyone says they are? I can understand the "everyone is immortal, so it doesn't matter what anyone else plays" argument.. but honestly, that bucket has holes in it.  Not every character concept is immortal, so if I'm playing one of those "less immortal" concepts, suddenly I'm the one who has to be worried about who else is in my group. and this is only discussing the defense side of things.. do you have any idea how many people don't play "knockback" concepts because they're likely to get kicked out of teams?

 

  I've been writing this post too long already, so I'm just gonna stop here for now.  Hopefully people can see that what I was thinking about isn't a total nerf, but is more of a restructuring.

[Infinitum]

12 minutes ago, Hardboiled Hero said:

I would LOVE to make a Super Reflexes tank..  but such a tank has the same limitations as Batman (albeit a little more health) and therefore also can't tank that content.   Now if everyone else's survival is so good that they don't need a tank in the first place, then maybe that really IS the answer.. but it doesn't exactly make the poor SR tank feel "god-like" does it?  One of the things we all love about this game is that anybody can play whatever they want..  except it just isn't true.  I want to play an SR Tanker and still feel "god-mode

Ok do you know a lot about SR tanks?  They are one of the most survivable tank sets you can make.

 

I didn't realize it either until Caulderone showed me the numbers on them.  They have high DDR can cap defenses early, but its also important to build on that with defense set bonuses.  They also have a very healthy resistance scalar that makes them nigh unkillable.

 

god mode is very much a thing with SR tanks.

[Sovera]

32 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Ok do you know a lot about SR tanks?  They are one of the most survivable tank sets you can make.

 

I didn't realize it either until Caulderone showed me the numbers on them.  They have high DDR can cap defenses early, but its also important to build on that with defense set bonuses.  They also have a very healthy resistance scalar that makes them nigh unkillable.

 

god mode is very much a thing with SR tanks.

I dunno man, I tried a SR tank, and while I will concede that the build was not refined to the max they easily died in a Comic Con map. This is not the way the game usually works with target saturated to the max and being hit for several minutes, but as a metric for unkillable, yeah, failed. SR has no heal so I had to rely on Aid Self and even on a 6 second CD I was desperately waiting for it to come back using it pretty much on CD every 6 seconds. After barely scrapping by the skin of my teeth for a couple of minutes I eventually died.

 

To put it in perspective my /Bio Scrappers will wade into the same map and have to hit their heal once in a while.

 

Then SR has no endurance recovery nor resistance to recovery being debuffed, so they will be detoggled easily. I worry just thinking sending them into the 801 AE missions, but hey, I could be wrong.

 

 

For normal gameplay of jumping into a pack of enemies, AoE, most minions dead and only 2-4 lieuts and a boss left, sure, it will work fine. But any other Tanker does that, or Scrapper or even Stalker.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I dunno man, I tried a SR tank, and while I will concede that the build was not refined to the max they easily died in a Comic Con map. This is not the way the game usually works with target saturated to the max and being hit for several minutes, but as a metric for unkillable, yeah, failed. SR has no heal so I had to rely on Aid Self and even on a 6 second CD I was desperately waiting for it to come back using it pretty much on CD every 6 seconds. After barely scrapping by the skin of my teeth for a couple of minutes I eventually died.

 

To put it in perspective my /Bio Scrappers will wade into the same map and have to hit their heal once in a while.

 

Then SR has no endurance recovery nor resistance to recovery being debuffed, so they will be detoggled easily. I worry just thinking sending them into the 801 AE missions, but hey, I could be wrong.

 

 

For normal gameplay of jumping into a pack of enemies, AoE, most minions dead and only 2-4 lieuts and a boss left, sure, it will work fine. But any other Tanker does that, or Scrapper or even Stalker.

Well sure SR isn't a traditional farm set, but neither is 80 percent of the sets avail.

 

To run a farm map especially with a non traditional farm set you need an optimized build.  I bet if it were optimized you would fare better.

 

Also ageless is your friend.

[Hardboiled Hero]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Ok do you know a lot about SR tanks?  They are one of the most survivable tank sets you can make.

 

I didn't realize it either until Caulderone showed me the numbers on them.  They have high DDR can cap defenses early, but its also important to build on that with defense set bonuses.  They also have a very healthy resistance scalar that makes them nigh unkillable.

 

god mode is very much a thing with SR tanks.

  admittedly I don't know much.  I have an SR tanker that I made a few weeks back (actually I made 2), but I really don't feel good about playing them.  The SR/Savage tanker is only level 12 right now. (the other has /MA, I still haven't really played).  I tried actually tanking with her in DFB (I realize that one isn't a good test at all) and then I did some solo stuff.. she's okay there.. just kinda slow.  The I tried to tank in Posi 1..  First mission, First Mob, she dropped in less than 5 seconds.  The party wiped, we came back and tried again (after my team slipped me some def and res inspirations)..  I died again, and so did a few others in the group.  we all got up and rested, On the second mob I died again..  So I can say in all honesty there's no way I'm ever going to figure out what end game tanking is like when the leveling experience is so atrocious and the best I have to look forward to be is being "almost as good" as some other tanks for "some content".  That's not what I envision as being "No Trinity".  If it were just a matter of "trying a little harder" while leveling to get a character that's "genuinely good" at something in the end game..  But it's not.  It's "dying on every pull" in order to eventually get to be "almost as good".  More importantly, I let my team down.  They figured they'd be okay with any team-mate.. they were wrong, because the game isn't actually designed that way, no matter how much we all want it to be.

[Infinitum]

16 minutes ago, Hardboiled Hero said:

  admittedly I don't know much.  I have an SR tanker that I made a few weeks back (actually I made 2), but I really don't feel good about playing them.  The SR/Savage tanker is only level 12 right now. (the other has /MA, I still haven't really played).  I tried actually tanking with her in DFB (I realize that one isn't a good test at all) and then I did some solo stuff.. she's okay there.. just kinda slow.  The I tried to tank in Posi 1..  First mission, First Mob, she dropped in less than 5 seconds.  The party wiped, we came back and tried again (after my team slipped me some def and res inspirations)..  I died again, and so did a few others in the group.  we all got up and rested, On the second mob I died again..  So I can say in all honesty there's no way I'm ever going to figure out what end game tanking is like when the leveling experience is so atrocious and the best I have to look forward to be is being "almost as good" as some other tanks for "some content".  That's not what I envision as being "No Trinity".  If it were just a matter of "trying a little harder" while leveling to get a character that's "genuinely good" at something in the end game..  But it's not.  It's "dying on every pull" in order to eventually get to be "almost as good".  More importantly, I let my team down.  They figured they'd be okay with any team-mate.. they were wrong, because the game isn't actually designed that way, no matter how much we all want it to be.

I would suggest visiting the tanker forums, I believe it was Caulderone, and also RedLynn that are the experts with SR  but there are lots of ways to make that very strong.

[Doomguide2005]

I so need to get a computer up and running.  My /SR brain (scrappers, brutes and stalkers) is utterly dying to try out an SR tank.   Considering what my main (Claws/SR scrapper) could/can jump into ... really leaves mean wondering.

[Naraka]

11 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

I'll say again... Rularuu. 

 

Go out to the Shard and run Hammond's missions solo at +4/x8. The missions themselves are nothing special, but in large numbers those Rularuu spawns will absolutely eat your lunch if you're not careful, even with a high-end build. That's especially true if you end up with more than one spawn at a time. (Which is likely given the ludicrous perception on the eyeballs and how close groups will be to each other on those cave maps-) 

 

High DEF? The Overseers just don't care. They're jerks that way. XD

 

 

A good half of my characters don't have travel powers though.

 

I have done work in the shard before, it's just not as common as leveling up alts through the standard content.  Putting them in more missions in the game, I wouldn't be against.

[Naraka]

9 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Then make +Special or +Damage more attractive or give different level 5 or 6 set bonuses for slotting those type of IO sets.

There are better suggestions and ideas than reducing defense.

But as has already been demonstrated and explained, none of those ideas you just made will make defense or recharge less enticing.  There really is no other suggestion to accomplish a better balance.  The only other option is put more settings on the treadmill which doesn't really balance anything.  Either those setting will replace the current +4/x8 or no one will care because it's optional.

[Naraka]

9 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Leaving things mostly as is is the optimal solution for now. People can leave their suggests we can have fun discussing and file them away for if the game ever goes legit again.

We can't even do that because people that get too serious start complaining as if we're here petitioning to have the game changed instead of having discussions on our personal perspectives.

 

Do you actually believe we are trying to change the current game?  But I bet that didn't stop you from taking that position and then vilifying their opinions.  People start throwing around their egos more and more, losing the perspective of the thread's intent.

[JJDrakken]

Do folks not understand the system?

 

Soft Cap is 45% no matter what, so out of a set number of 50. A mob who faces  you at soft cap level with no internal buffs has a 5% chance to hit you. Factor in buffs from mobs, internal buffs from mobs, etc... There is also Cascade defense failures.

 

What you are seeing is probably incarnates with Barrier power, which even with said power, they can still hit, but do to barrier also buffing Res, it doesn't seem like anything is happening. YET, even with Barrier/Leadership Power/Etc... 

 

I watch folks face plant a lot, why? A large portion of our player base don't recipe up. They Alt-itis it or get to 50 think SOs or Basic IOs are fine.

[JJDrakken]

3 hours ago, Hardboiled Hero said:

  admittedly I don't know much.  I have an SR tanker that I made a few weeks back (actually I made 2), but I really don't feel good about playing them.  The SR/Savage tanker is only level 12 right now. (the other has /MA, I still haven't really played).  I tried actually tanking with her in DFB (I realize that one isn't a good test at all) and then I did some solo stuff.. she's okay there.. just kinda slow.  The I tried to tank in Posi 1..  First mission, First Mob, she dropped in less than 5 seconds.  The party wiped, we came back and tried again (after my team slipped me some def and res inspirations)..  I died again, and so did a few others in the group.  we all got up and rested, On the second mob I died again..  So I can say in all honesty there's no way I'm ever going to figure out what end game tanking is like when the leveling experience is so atrocious and the best I have to look forward to be is being "almost as good" as some other tanks for "some content".  That's not what I envision as being "No Trinity".  If it were just a matter of "trying a little harder" while leveling to get a character that's "genuinely good" at something in the end game..  But it's not.  It's "dying on every pull" in order to eventually get to be "almost as good".  More importantly, I let my team down.  They figured they'd be okay with any team-mate.. they were wrong, because the game isn't actually designed that way, no matter how much we all want it to be.

SR is a late bloomer. Also it has raising resistance levels. Lower your HP you get a higher RES, Not to high but yes you get it(less that was removed by HC from live). All Defense no matter what your defense says, is soft capped at 45. So doesn't matter if your D says 150% melee defense. It's 45% Easiest way to remember this. Acc number for mobs is 50. So if you have 20% melee defense they have 30% base chance to hit you(not counting any buffs they get, etc..) 

[Major_Decoy]

42 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

SR is a late bloomer. Also it has raising resistance levels. Lower your HP you get a higher RES, Not to high but yes you get it(less that was removed by HC from live). All Defense no matter what your defense says, is soft capped at 45. So doesn't matter if your D says 150% melee defense. It's 45% Easiest way to remember this. Acc number for mobs is 50. So if you have 20% melee defense they have 30% base chance to hit you(not counting any buffs they get, etc..) 

Super Reflexes is not a late bloomer on Tanks. Tanks just don't have all their survival tools at level 10. If you're tanking positron 1 without being exemplared, you're going to have a hard time of it. The Vahzilok are nasty, and that's the first mission.

Super Reflexes on a tank can hit the soft cap against all positions with Single Origin Enhanmcents at level 19. No Weave necessary (though you will need either combat jumping or manuevers) though it will take most of your slots at that level.

[Hardboiled Hero]

3 hours ago, JJDrakken said:

SR is a late bloomer. Also it has raising resistance levels. Lower your HP you get a higher RES, Not to high but yes you get it(less that was removed by HC from live). All Defense no matter what your defense says, is soft capped at 45. So doesn't matter if your D says 150% melee defense. It's 45% Easiest way to remember this. Acc number for mobs is 50. So if you have 20% melee defense they have 30% base chance to hit you(not counting any buffs they get, etc..) 

  SR still has the thing where the res gets higher as their health drops.. one reason I decided to go ahead and make the SR tankers tp begin with.. it simply doesn't help enough at low levels.  How could SR be a "late bloomer" though, when it's the late/end game in which SR loses much of the advantage they would have in tanking.. when defense becomes soft-capped by everyone and SR is still lacking the resistance that other armor sets have?

2 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

Super Reflexes is not a late bloomer on Tanks. Tanks just don't have all their survival tools at level 10. If you're tanking positron 1 without being exemplared, you're going to have a hard time of it. The Vahzilok are nasty, and that's the first mission.

Super Reflexes on a tank can hit the soft cap against all positions with Single Origin Enhanmcents at level 19. No Weave necessary (though you will need either combat jumping or manuevers) though it will take most of your slots at that level.

  True, the game isn't balanced around level 10's with training enhancements.. and doing so probably shouldn't be a very high priority.

 

Honestly, I'm probably going to take weave anyway, largely because it's in the same powerset as tough.  This brings in something else though.. and I don't really want to call it a "problem"  it's more of a fact that I think contributes to some problems.  That being that there's very little mechanical reason for most characters to take most pool powersets.. and I feel this is as things should be.. Pool powers should be taken to give the character more.. well.. character.

 

The "problem" as I see it is that defense powers are the clear outliers here.  Take a look at Medicine..  I could see people taking it if their character is meant to be a doctor who heals people through actual medicine rather than super-powers/magic..  It seems like it should be very useful (and I think it once was)..  the people who buy it probably look for every opportunity to actually use it and they likely find some opportunities..  It's not an inherently "bad" powerset but do you think people really take medicine powers anywhere near as often as they take Hover, Combat Jumping, Weave, Tough, and even Maneuvers?  I don't know the numbers, but I don't really get that impression as I've never seen anyone actually use any medicine powers.  and how do you buff medicine in order to make it worthwhile if the basic issue is that no one really needs healing?

 

  Presence is another powerset that I'm concerned about.  It actually has a survival power in it (Placate.. really some controls as well) and still I don't see many builds using this powerset.  It also has a taunt..  At one point I thought this would be a super great powerset for my sentinels, because I could use taunt when I want to grab an enemy that's heading toward the "squishies" on my team and I could use Placate if I'm about to get overwhelmed,  turns out it's not so great.. but that's okay because no one needs an off-tank anyway. so if I want to make my character to be "charismatic", Leadership is the obvious choice over presence.. because leadership does something valuable and presence doesn't.  I would want to make suggestions to buff presence, but would any of that matter if no one needs me to taunt things off of them.. and for my part I have no particular need for placate?

 

  So basically with "Ninja run", I don't "need" any movement powers.  I don't "need" Presence or medicine. I'm still kinda testing sorcery and experimentation.. (so far I think people notice the buff from experimentation, but not so much the sorcery buffs) the only powers that people "need" from the Pool are the +defense powers and tough. (and these are always in theme, because everyone pictures their characters as not dying when one little thing goes wrong.)  So we need to have  our pool powers be either equally impactful, or equally non-impactful so that people can make all of their choices for theme reasons.. we don't have that in pool powers right now.