Remove Personal Force Field from Fake Nemesis

[GastlyGibus]

Fake Nemesis mobs using this power serves no purpose at all other than wasting your time.

There's no difficulty added, since they can't attack you while it's on. It doesn't make it challenging, it just wastes time and has you sitting there twiddling your thumbs until it turns off. They can't affect allies while it's on, so it's not as if they're providing additional support time for their friends. It literally accomplishes no purpose whatsoever for them or for you other than wasting your time for like 20 seconds. It's annoying, pointless, and should be removed from their arsenal.

Edited May 28, 2020 by GastlyGibus
Changed "he" to "they."

[0th Power]

I disagree. I actually like this and the MoG on the paragon protectors. If you focus on the boss with a mez or burst damage at the tight time they become no problem. Spam aoe and you’re looking at the frustration factor.  A little bit of strategy in this otherwise easy game. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by 0th Power
Autocorrect

[aethereal]

You make a pretty strong point.  I will say that there's a challenge bar to trying to avoid it, on some characters at least (time a knockdown to give you a chance to kill them before they can activate, for example), so it to some extent rewards play skill with faster progress.  But probably it's a minority of characters who can actually do that?

[GastlyGibus]

5 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

I disagree. I actually like this and the MoG on the paragon protectors. If you focus on the boss with a new or burst damage at the tight time they become no problem. Spam aoe and you’re looking at the frustration factor.  A little bit of strategy in this otherwise easy game. 

I don't mind MoG on Protectors, since they can still attack you while it's active, and it actually gives you an incentive for preventing them from using it. They're still a danger while it's up. Same goes for Master Illusionists in the Carnival. That's not my issue.

My issue is purely with Fake Nemesis. It's not a matter of strategy, because it's not like Protectors or Illusionists, where there's a heightened danger for them activating it. It literally does nothing at all but waste your time. They can't attack you, they can't buff allies, it's literally just pausing the game for 20 seconds, and you just have to sit there and wait until it's off. Hence why it shouldn't be in the game. It serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever other than to annoy you.

Edited May 28, 2020 by GastlyGibus

[0th Power]

What if instead of removing it, it was changed to they can attack?

[aethereal]

Well, killing you doesn't do anything other than waste your time, either.  On some level, the challenge of CoH is efficiently achieving rewards.  If someone can blast through Nemesis groups without paying the tax for waiting out the PFFs, and someone else does, then the person who can finesse the PFF is getting a reward for their skill (or for their character having like good holds, or whatever).

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, GastlyGibus said:

Fake Nemesis mobs using this power serves no purpose at all other than wasting your time.

All you have to do is stop attacking until he pulls out his Key To The City Nemesis Staff again, because that's the "tell" that you can attack him again.

 

/First World Problems

[GastlyGibus]

3 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

What if instead of removing it, it was changed to they can attack?

If it was more like Moment of Glory on Protectors, where I could still attack them and they could attack me, I could then at least see a reason for it existing. It would make them more dangerous and, as you've mentioned before, actually make a strategy worthwhile for locking them down before they can activate it.

2 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Well, killing you doesn't do anything other than waste your time, either.  On some level, the challenge of CoH is efficiently achieving rewards.  If someone can blast through Nemesis groups without paying the tax for waiting out the PFFs, and someone else does, then the person who can finesse the PFF is getting a reward for their skill (or for their character having like good holds, or whatever).

When the reward is simply saving 20 seconds of time, it's not really a very worthwhile reward. If you're playing on a character or a team that doesn't have efficient lockdown or crowd control, then you're basically punished in a really annoying, pointless manner. "Oops, you didn't kill or lock them down in time, now you get to have a staring contest for 20 seconds."

 

3 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

All you have to do is stop attacking until he pulls out his Key To The City Nemesis Staff again, because that's the "tell" that you can attack him again.

 

/First World Problems

I am well aware of the tell for attacking them again. My problem is that, as I've already mentioned, it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. It doesn't make the fight challenging, or difficult, or anything. It's completely mindless and just slows you down for no reason at all.

[nihilii]

I'm with 0th power. I enjoy the mini challenge of timing burst damage just right, or using a knockdown at the right moment, or what have you, to prevent PFF/MoG. Fake Nemesis have lengthy animations too so it's possible to use that against them and feels pretty nice when you pull it off. Or sometimes you're playing a mediocre character who has no KB/KD/mez nor damage, but you work with a teammate to burst them down in time regardless. It's a cool dynamic.

I understand the spirit of the suggestion but would much rather have PFF turned into a 90% resistance power where they can attack than removed entirely.

 

Anecdotally the Paragon devs likely felt as you do, as Slinger who was introduced in I8 or whenever the RSF came out, uses a PFF much closer to the player version, giving him high resistance and defense rather than untangible. Fake Nem PFF is a holdover from very early design.

[GastlyGibus]

4 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I understand the spirit of the suggestion but would much rather have PFF turned into a 90% resistance power where they can attack than removed entirely.

 

Anecdotally the Paragon devs likely felt as you do, as Slinger who was introduced in I8 or whenever the RSF came out, uses a PFF much closer to the player version, giving him high resistance and defense rather than untangible. Fake Nem PFF is a holdover from very early design.

I'd be fine with that too. As long as I'm not completely, 100% helpless when it's active, then I'd be fine with it. Like I said, I don't mind MoG on Protectors or the on/off intangibility of Carnie illusionists. There's an actual, tangible (no pun intended) risk and challenge with them, since they are still threats while the power is active. They make you think at least a little bit, because if you are careless they can turn the fight against you.

With Fake Nemesis, none of that is there, since there's nothing anybody can do when it's on. You're just stuck there staring at each other awkwardly until it wears off, and it's pointless and annoying.

Edited May 28, 2020 by GastlyGibus

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 minutes ago, GastlyGibus said:

I'd be fine with that too. As long as I'm not completely, 100% helpless when it's active, then I'd be fine with it. Like I said, I don't mind MoG on Protectors or the on/off intangibility of Carnie illusionists. There's an actual, tangible (no pun intended) risk and challenge with them, since they are still threats while the power is active. They make you think at least a little bit, because if you are careless they can turn the fight against you.

With Fake Nemesis, none of that is there, since there's nothing anybody can do when it's on. You're just stuck there staring at each other awkwardly until it wears off, and it's pointless and annoying.

That's why I target them first, and if I fail to kill them before they go PFF, then I move on to the minions and lts and come back 20 seconds later.  Every group has its own strategies, which is why you sometimes need to choose who to go after first.

[Snowdaze]

Fakes may be able to still be buffed by LTs vengeance while bubbled up, I would have to double check. As frustrating as it is, it's a Nemesis tactic, and adds flair to the villain group. If the fakes didn't have the PFF then they really are unremarkable as bosses. If anything all nemesis troops should be equipped with the same tactic! Imagine how annoying they would become!

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, GastlyGibus said:

As long as I'm not completely, 100% helpless when it's active

Uh ... the Fake Nemesis uses the power to affect Self ... not You ...

 

If anything, it's the Fake Nemesis who is helpless.  You can still attack, or leave, or switch $Targets, or whatever.

It's not like they use the power and you get mezzed by it.

[GastlyGibus]

32 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Uh ... the Fake Nemesis uses the power to affect Self ... not You ...

 

If anything, it's the Fake Nemesis who is helpless.  You can still attack, or leave, or switch $Targets, or whatever.

It's not like they use the power and you get mezzed by it.

Perhaps a poor choice of words, but when it's just the Fake Nemesis and me, and I can't attack or do anything to harm him, then yes, it would be helpless. Sure, he can't attack me either, but there is literally nothing that can be done once the power is activated. You are forced to sit there and wait.

[Redlynne]

14 minutes ago, GastlyGibus said:

You are forced to sit there and wait.

What do you do when Instant Gratification isn't fast enough?

[GastlyGibus]

14 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

What do you do when Instant Gratification isn't fast enough?

This isn't about "instant gratification." This isn't a matter of me complaining that I can't kill Nems fast enough. This is me complaining about a power that serves literally no purpose whatsoever but to stall and waste time.

It doesn't give Nemesis an advantage in a battle, since they cannot attack with it on.

It doesn't make the fight more difficult, because it literally stalls the conflict with no way around it.

It doesn't serve any purpose at all. It's literally just "stop playing for 20 seconds because I said so." What part of this are you not understanding?

Read my previous posts. I do not mind when enemies pop outrageous defense powers. I have no issue with Paragon Protectors when they activate Moment of Glory, because Moment of Glory actually serves a purpose. It makes them harder to hit, while they can still attack freely. It makes the fight more dangerous, and changes the battle, as it was intended to. Furthermore, you can still attack and find ways to work around it. You can debuff them, pop some inspirations, buff yourself, there are options. This isn't me complaining that mobs are too hard to kill. What I am complaining about is a power that serves no purpose, gives no advantage, changes nothing in a fight, and makes you sit there for several seconds unable to do anything but wait for it to end.

Edited May 28, 2020 by GastlyGibus
Added extra paragraph

[TraumaTrain]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Uh ... the Fake Nemesis uses the power to affect Self ... not You ...

 

If anything, it's the Fake Nemesis who is helpless.  You can still attack, or leave, or switch $Targets, or whatever.

It's not like they use the power and you get mezzed by it.

I use the time to attack him psychologically through a variety of emotes and sass. There's a point where it becomes too much for him to bear (bare? beer?), and he shuts the force field off. That's when I have him...

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, Snowdaze said:

Fakes may be able to still be buffed by LTs vengeance while bubbled up

PFF makes them intangible, so no. That is a tactic you can use against them. Attack boss first, once he PFFs you have some time to defeat the lieutenants knowing Veng won't buff the boss.

[Yomo Kimyata]

6 minutes ago, GastlyGibus said:

It doesn't give Nemesis an advantage in a battle, since they cannot attack with it on.
 

They heal when PFF is up.  Not instantly, but their regeneration is working.  You see it much more dramatically when you are fighting Nemesis, Nemesis?, Nemesis Rex as AVs.  Many is the time when soloing one of those AVs that I would cross my fingers that I would be able to get him down to zero before the PFF came up, then wait while he regenerated in perfect safety.  

 

I'm curious why this in particular has drawn your ire.  There are far more annoying enemies.

[Greycat]

*shrug* I don't mind when they pop that. Finish off the other stuff that might be around them, have a drink, waiting a few seconds won't kill me.

 

Now, if you want an annoying PFF/intangible, we can talk about Diabolique...

Edited May 28, 2020 by Greycat

[GastlyGibus]

13 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'm curious why this in particular has drawn your ire.  There are far more annoying enemies.

Because like I said, with the vast majority of annoying enemies, I can at least see the rationale for their annoyance. They at least make sense, because they make fights more difficult and force you to rethink your approach and change your tactics on the fly. 

This is me playing solo on my Tanker doing Nemesis missions, and having to fight several Fake Nemesis bosses in a single mission. I'm a Tanker, so I have virtually no crowd control other than my one knockback power, and 9 times out of 10, my damage isn't really high enough to knockback and then deliver the killing blow before they get up. In these missions, when I have no team around, I'm forced to stand around, mob after mob after mob, waiting for the shield to drop so I can keep fighting and playing the game. It's simply a matter of it serving no purpose other than to pause the game for a few seconds. I've agreed with some of the suggestions above that maybe it can be changed instead of outright removed, maybe a massive resistance buff, or defense buff, or something that I can at least counteract with some other strategy.

I'm just annoyed that every other mob spawn has me arbitrarily stalling for several seconds twiddling my thumbs unable to do anything but wait for the shield to drop. That's really my issue with it. It doesn't do anything besides make you wait. It'd be like if you were playing any other video game, and every couple minutes I just walked by and paused the game for 20 seconds. You'd get pretty annoyed too eventually and probably ask me to stop.

Edited May 28, 2020 by GastlyGibus

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, GastlyGibus said:

This is me playing solo on my Tanker doing Nemesis missions, and having to fight several Fake Nemesis bosses in a single mission. I'm a Tanker, so I have virtually no crowd control other than my one knockback power, and 9 times out of 10, my damage isn't really high enough to knockback and then deliver the killing blow before they get up. In these missions, when I have no team around, I'm forced to stand around, mob after mob after mob, waiting for the shield to drop so I can keep fighting and playing the game.

Work them down with non-KB powers. Then knock them down and finish them off. If they still pop PFF, head to the next mob, since that boss will be nearly dead when they drop out anyway.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, GastlyGibus said:

This is me playing solo on my Tanker doing Nemesis missions, and having to fight several Fake Nemesis bosses in a single mission. I'm a Tanker, so I have virtually no crowd control other than my one knockback power, and 9 times out of 10, my damage isn't really high enough to knockback and then deliver the killing blow before they get up.

Have you ever considered piracy using Air Superiority out of the Flight pool?

It's a 100% chance of Knock"down" (it's actually a KnockUP, but that's beside the point here) and it doesn't require too much recharge in it to be able to perma "juggle" Fake Nemesis as he's trying to stand up such that he never gets to use a power ever again after you start hitting him (repeatedly) with Air Superiority.  You can use Air Superiority to PREVENT the use of Personal Force Field.

 

Wait ... let me guess ... you can't fit Air Superiority into your build.

Sorry, can't help you then.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, TraumaTrain said:

I use the time to attack him psychologically through a variety of emotes and sass. There's a point where it becomes too much for him to bear (bare? beer?), and he shuts the force field off. That's when I have him...

I always entertained my teams when fighting Paragon Protectors when they would use their MINUTES OF GLORY power which made everything Miss them.  I'd Taunt them (which was autohit) and then emote Newspaper while they whiffed away at my over 45% Defenses.  My teammates found it hilarious.

 

[Snowdaze]

1 hour ago, GastlyGibus said:

I'm just annoyed that every other mob spawn has me arbitrarily stalling for several seconds twiddling my thumbs unable to do anything but wait for the shield to drop. That's really my issue with it. It doesn't do anything besides make you wait. It'd be like if you were playing any other video game, and every couple minutes I just walked by and paused the game for 20 seconds. You'd get pretty annoyed too eventually and probably ask me to stop.

Hey Gastly, Ummm don't sit there and twiddle your thumbs, move on to the next group... that boss will come seek you out once the bubble wears off. 

 

You claim this power doesnt give Nemi an advantage in battle and I would like to suggest the advantage is it changes how you fight them. I will purposely hold off on my hardest hitting attacks or KD's or what have you until they are close to the amount of health they activate their shield at and then I will try and get them before they can activate. Alternately it also makes them a prime target for any character with a hold, leaving the snipers open to put holes through people, and warhulks free to well hulk things. If the Fakes didn't use PFF you could practically ignore them. You target them BECAUSE they annoy us.

 

They also arn't the only mob that has this power what about Crey Juggernaughts? You haven't mentioned now much you absolutely hate them yet? I would think you would seek out every instance of an enemy doing what you don't want them to do... But I guess it's ok that those red enviro suits can make impenetrable bubbles?

Edited May 29, 2020 by Snowdaze