[Afterburner] +def -fly protection ... only effecting self?

[Joshex]

So, you have to choose 2 powers in the flight pool to learn that while afterburner is on, you cannot attack other targets.... I'd be happy if we just reduced the +def output and made it so it can be used in battle. I mean whats the purpose of a power you can;t use in battle that applies + def?

 

This power needs to be fixed, please.

 

before that though, is there anyone out there that actually uses it? why and what for? I suppose it could be good for a mastermind who lets his pets do 100% of the fighting. please enlighten me on if it's valid and how. thanks.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Joshex

[Apparition]

I use Afterburner all the time.  It is not meant to be used in combat.  It is meant for travel.  The extra defense is to make you harder to hit while traveling.  I use Afterburner anytime while traveling outdoors.

[Joshex]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

I use Afterburner all the time.  It is not meant to be used in combat.  It is meant for travel.  The extra defense is to make you harder to hit while traveling.  I use Afterburner anytime while traveling outdoors.

I had that thought, that it might protect from snipers. but in my mind I never considered that as a valid cost of giving up another power choice, or 2..

 

But thanks for the input. I still think allowing us to use it in battle would be good. that would make it more than just a travel protection power in between missions. I had made a build in mids that was relying on it, then.. well I finally got to getting it and realized my fault.. it can't be used in battle.

 

Would you, or anyone have any grievances against making it able to be used in battle with no def reduction? the full +10% def base. I'm really hoping the devs will do something about this. as things stand, my build... it's less interesting now.. I thought I finally cracked how to make a blaster that could stand solo in +4 missions, rather than always struggling at -1.

[Apparition]

Uhh... If your Blaster is struggling to solo at -1, then you have more build problems than Afterburner, to be blunt.  When not farming, I like to solo at +3x8 (as there really is not much difference between the two other than taking more time at +4) sometimes, and my Blaster can do that just fine.

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, Joshex said:

I had that thought, that it might protect from snipers. but in my mind I never considered that as a valid cost of giving up another power choice, or 2..

 

But thanks for the input. I still think allowing us to use it in battle would be good. that would make it more than just a travel protection power in between missions. I had made a build in mids that was relying on it, then.. well I finally got to getting it and realized my fault.. it can't be used in battle.

 

Would you, or anyone have any grievances against making it able to be used in battle with no def reduction? the full +10% def base. I'm really hoping the devs will do something about this. as things stand, my build... it's less interesting now.. I thought I finally cracked how to make a blaster that could stand solo in +4 missions, rather than always struggling at -1.

If Afterburner was usable in battle, it would need to have it's defense dramatically reduced to make any sense relative to other pool powers. 10% defense would make it twice as strong as tanker weave, which does nothing else. That wouldn't make much sense.

 

That being said, I'm not convinced it needs a change very badly. Being an LotG mule alone makes it substantially better than the majority of pool powers as is.

[JonnieNeutron]

19 minutes ago, Joshex said:

I had that thought, that it might protect from snipers. but in my mind I never considered that as a valid cost of giving up another power choice, or 2..

 

But thanks for the input. I still think allowing us to use it in battle would be good. that would make it more than just a travel protection power in between missions. I had made a build in mids that was relying on it, then.. well I finally got to getting it and realized my fault.. it can't be used in battle.

 

Would you, or anyone have any grievances against making it able to be used in battle with no def reduction? the full +10% def base. I'm really hoping the devs will do something about this. as things stand, my build... it's less interesting now.. I thought I finally cracked how to make a blaster that could stand solo in +4 missions, rather than always struggling at -1.

 

Scorpion shield is your friend

[Naraka]

I have it on 2 builds, my Bio/Fire/Mako Tanker and my Dark/Martial Dominator.  Technically, I have it on other builds but they tend to only use it for the fly speed out of combat.

 

The Tanker is a flier so taking Afterburner wasn't a big issue.  As is, he's a semi-hover tank who uses lots of cone attacks.  How he uses Afterburner is for an Alpha-strike softener tool.  With it on, he has nearly soft-capped defense to all which he uses by hovering into a spawn with it on, lets the mob throw their initial volley and then turn it off to start using AoEs and control.

 

For my Dominator, it's kind of a utility tool.  He's a teleporter so I had to take 1 extra power besides hover to get Afterburner (I took Air Superiority in place of one of my secondary melee attacks) but I specifically slotted it with a stealth IO, several other defense uniques and slotted the defense up too.  It's use, for a teleporter, is to combine it with something like Ninja Run to gain increased manuvering control (kind of like combat jumping's extra mid-air control...but you can actually run it with ninja run), stealth when I want to bypass foes and a good chunk of defense.  He isn't at max level so he doesn't have Scorpion Shield yet but the build would be soft-capped with it on.  Of course, you can't use it during combat but I don't need it to.  Again, it's more a tool to run around stealthed and not be disturbed.

 

Neither are likely optimal uses or for meta-builds, but it does does have its uses and I enjoy making unorthodox builds.

[Joshex]

1 hour ago, arcaneholocaust said:

If Afterburner was usable in battle, it would need to have it's defense dramatically reduced to make any sense relative to other pool powers. 10% defense would make it twice as strong as tanker weave, which does nothing else. That wouldn't make much sense.

 

That being said, I'm not convinced it needs a change very badly. Being an LotG mule alone makes it substantially better than the majority of pool powers as is.

I had considered that, then again I just remembered after posting this thread, we have [Vengeance] in the leadership pool which supplies about the same def, the difference is it has a requirement that it can only be used when a team mate has fallen, and only for a limited time thereafter.

 

Both powers however require you to have 2 other powers in the pool to get them, this is part of their "cost" compared to the lower tier powers such as hover, combat jumping etc. which do not have any prerequisites and can be taken very early (no min level, where veng and afterburner have a moderate min level (14 vs 4 or 6 with hover and CJ).

 

This is why combat jumping and hover and maneuvers have such reduced rates of def in comparison.

 

Afterburner already has 1 such consideration similar to vengeance it can only be used while a flight power is active. Ergo, if you get sapped and even only your flight power or hover goes down and all other toggles are still running, afterburner will drop until this is rectified. This is considered to be a conditional activation, much like vengeance also has a conditional activation.

 

the difference is you can still attack with vengeance on, but it requires a fallen teammate. kinda not something you can rely on.

 

another difference is toggle VS. click-type, veng is click type. if we could think of a valid additional condition for it's continued use, I think we could make Afterburner into an "in battle" power vs "only affecting self" power, we would just need such a condition.

 

I think I have just the condition! Afterburner is supposed to be active while moving and flying. so? the player should have to 1: not be held or immobilized, 2: have moved with flight and afterburner active recently.

 

While not moving we could drop the base to +1.5% or 2.28% def all, then if the player has moved or is moving, have the base jump to +10% def base and last for the duration of an average click type power from the end of flying movement before dropping back down to 1.5 or 2.28. so that way, if you are just sitting in a large group trying to farm, after like 180 seconds your def will drop around 7% or more. gotta keep moving to keep it active. could also make a minimum movement time to reactivate the full 10% like, have to be moving for 10 seconds to get the full base or have to move #distance in one consecutive motion.

 

This would be valid. at least I think so, it wouldn't effect people who use it for travel protection as they will still get the full amount, yet it will supply "Something" in battle rather than preventing you from attacking.

 

what does everyone think?

1 hour ago, JonnieNeutron said:

 

Scorpion shield is your friend

I had thought of other ancillary pools, I ended up getting Munitions for the body armor surveillance and rocket. besides to get the patron pools you have to do the villain patron archs.. not that I don't want to, but not on a character I want to be pure hero.. if anyone can understand how I feel there.

 

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

Uhh... If your Blaster is struggling to solo at -1, then you have more build problems than Afterburner, to be blunt.  When not farming, I like to solo at +3x8 (as there really is not much difference between the two other than taking more time at +4) sometimes, and my Blaster can do that just fine.

yeah I made another thread about this already... electric blasting is.. weak. very weak compared to other ranged sets. even it's most powerful attacks are significantly weaker than other sets most powerful attacks. so in situations where for a blaster, it is kill or be killed, electric blasting dies. It just can't pop the damage on fast enough. always need a good setup and 2 misses in a group of 4 or more may be all it takes to die. a hidden yellow con around a corner you didn't see is almost certain death.

 

 

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, Joshex said:

Afterburner already has 1 such consideration similar to vengeance it can only be used while a flight power is active. Ergo, if you get sapped and even only your flight power or hover goes down and all other toggles are still running, afterburner will drop until this is rectified. This is considered to be a conditional activation, much like vengeance also has a conditional activation.

Afterburner works fine even if you're not flying.

[Snowdaze]

10 hours ago, Joshex said:

So, you have to choose 2 powers in the flight pool to learn that while afterburner is on, you cannot attack other targets.... I'd be happy if we just reduced the +def output and made it so it can be used in battle. I mean whats the purpose of a power you can;t use in battle that applies + def?

 

This power needs to be fixed, please.

 

before that though, is there anyone out there that actually uses it? why and what for? I suppose it could be good for a mastermind who lets his pets do 100% of the fighting. please enlighten me on if it's valid and how. thanks.

I was pretty sure that it mentions the "only affect self" in the description. And I also thought it was pretty widely know...

I'm fine with Afterburner the way it is. 

 

Though on second thought, if it could boost flight speed of hover that would be nice, so it could be toggled on once and a while for quick repositioning...

[Joshex]

7 hours ago, Vanden said:

Afterburner works fine even if you're not flying.

according to the description it shouldn't. maybe it's a bug. "This power only grants flight protection while Hover, Flight, or Group Fly is active. "

 

but it doesn't work fine in battle flying or not. this is my main point of consideration, it should do something in battle.

 

3 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

I was pretty sure that it mentions the "only affect self" in the description. And I also thought it was pretty widely know...

I'm fine with Afterburner the way it is. 

 

Though on second thought, if it could boost flight speed of hover that would be nice, so it could be toggled on once and a while for quick repositioning...

maybe new mids does, the game does, but I was just going from mids as it was at shutdown (still haven't upgraded). It can be used with hover but doesn't really increase things much. maybe that can be another condition necessary for use in battle, you can only use it in battle with hover, not flight.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Joshex

[Joshex]

Posting this again as I did not get any responses to it.

 

I think I have just the condition! Afterburner is supposed to be active while moving and flying. so? the player should have to 1: not be held or immobilized, 2: have moved with flight/hover and afterburner active recently.

 

While not moving we could drop the base to +1.5% or 2.28% def all, then if the player has moved or is moving, have the base jump to +10% def all base and last for the duration of an average click type power from the end of flying movement before dropping back down to 1.5 or 2.28. so that way, if you are just sitting in a large group trying to farm, after like 180 seconds your def will drop around 7% or more. gotta keep moving to keep it active. could also make a minimum movement time to reactivate the full 10% like, have to be moving for 10 seconds to get the full base or have to move #distance (feet or meters) in one consecutive motion.

 

This would be valid. at least I think so, it wouldn't effect people who use it for travel protection as they will still get the full amount cause they are moving, yet it will supply "Something" in battle rather than preventing you from attacking.

 

what does everyone think?

[Snowdaze]

3 hours ago, Joshex said:

Posting this again as I did not get any responses to it.

 

I think I have just the condition! Afterburner is supposed to be active while moving and flying. so? the player should have to 1: not be held or immobilized, 2: have moved with flight/hover and afterburner active recently.

 

While not moving we could drop the base to +1.5% or 2.28% def all, then if the player has moved or is moving, have the base jump to +10% def all base and last for the duration of an average click type power from the end of flying movement before dropping back down to 1.5 or 2.28. so that way, if you are just sitting in a large group trying to farm, after like 180 seconds your def will drop around 7% or more. gotta keep moving to keep it active. could also make a minimum movement time to reactivate the full 10% like, have to be moving for 10 seconds to get the full base or have to move #distance (feet or meters) in one consecutive motion.

 

This would be valid. at least I think so, it wouldn't effect people who use it for travel protection as they will still get the full amount cause they are moving, yet it will supply "Something" in battle rather than preventing you from attacking.

 

what does everyone think?

I think you are just making it more complicated then it needs to be. Status quo seems to work fine, until now, I've never really noticed anyone saying afterburner isn't good enough... As it is I can take it or leave it, and I would rather it not become a "must have" power like some people think Hasten to be.

[Apparition]

Honestly, Afterburner is fine as is.  I think that you would be better off posting your build in the Blaster forum and asking for help and pointers there.

[Joshex]

13 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Honestly, Afterburner is fine as is.  I think that you would be better off posting your build in the Blaster forum and asking for help and pointers there.

nah, I'm disappointed, I'm a wizard with mids, but this combo just doesn't work not without the extra def. 30% to 40% def is not enough for +4 x1 when the damage even when maxed out is lacking. if I can't kill a purple con in 4 or 5 hits, that's death.

I am aware of the fact that CoH was built by the former devs to be quote "a challenge for the strongest" this is why blasters have always been kinda squishy. The minimum diff is supposed to be the minimum diff for something with a little extra primary or secondary survive-ability. I guess they figured that blasters could just team all the time to make up for it. in other words "not really meant to be a solo AT".

 

Fly, my tank cannot take fly, it was kinda designed that way, I mean the game was designed so that it's kinda a problem for many melee types to take fly powers. simply because many melee sets have Click location TP attacks. (you cannot do these while flying, so you'd have to drop fly or hover.) this doesn't mean all melee sets are this way, but some of the biggest names are.

 

So the main thing here is Afterburner is a power un-takeable or at least unusuable by the majority of the most potent melee builds (not without significant statistical sacrifices), in otherwords, a power meant for squishies.

 

limiting them to using it only outside combat, kinda disappoints.

 

If there are no changes, I'm planning to give up on my blaster. that's how serious a blow taking away afterburner in combat is to a blaster at least to my build. I'd have to chose a different primary set. given that this exercise was an attempt to rebuild my main toon from 2006ish, to attempt to see if "maybe, just maybe I was doing it wrong". the fact is nope I tried any number of focuses for the build. it fails. scrap.

 

For now I'll put him on hiatus. if this changes great. if this doesn't change and I fill up 999 slots and need another.. well. guess it sucks to be his build.

[Burnt Toast]

I can guarantee you that it will not change to anything you have suggested. Afterburner was out 1.5 years before the game shutdown...and has always stated in-game and in Mids that it makes it so you only affect yourself. It is working as intended and there is no reason to change it. 

 

Regarding your blaster... why are you trying to do +4x1? Is that your benchmark on whether a toon is considered good? 

[Vanden]

It's possible that compelling reasons for Afterburner to let you attack with it on exist, but "so my Blaster can use the +Defense to solo on +4" is definitely not going to cut it.

[Joshex]

5 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

I can guarantee you that it will not change to anything you have suggested. Afterburner was out 1.5 years before the game shutdown...and has always stated in-game and in Mids that it makes it so you only affect yourself. It is working as intended and there is no reason to change it. 

 

Regarding your blaster... why are you trying to do +4x1? Is that your benchmark on whether a toon is considered good? 

I consider the difficulty of x1 to be global. as in every toon should be able to handle x1 (if things are balanced).

 

the way I see it -1,x1 should be what you can handle out of the box or with minimal basic enhancements.

+0, x1 should be what any toon hand handle with up to date normal enhancements of the best kind available at that level. (training, DO or SO)

+1, x1 should be what any toon can handle with 1; careful planning and up-to-date normal enhancements (taking it slow), or 2; a mix of up to date normal enhancements and some IOs.
+2, x1 should be what any toon can handle with 1; almost entirely IOs of the highest level possible, or 2: IOs and some sets. even if they have to take it slow.

+3, x1 should be what any toon can handle with mostly Sets and some IOs. at a moderate pace.

+4, x1 should be what a good build of any toon can handle with all sets fully slotted and catalyzed or boosted. at a moderate pace.

 

I'm not asking for +4, x8 on a blaster here. just blasters should be able to handle x1 when built right. knowing a general feel of statistics and thier battle outcome, I know 30 to 40 def is like +2 to +3 tops.

 

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

It's possible that compelling reasons for Afterburner to let you attack with it on exist, but "so my Blaster can use the +Defense to solo on +4" is definitely not going to cut it.

other compelling reasons would be to return fire in event a sniper can actually hit you. and to deal with hidden "stealth or invis" enemies that suddenly lock you down.. and of course ambushes and patrols.

 

even another 20% (50 to 60) def isn't guaranteed to keep you alive in any basic context where you don't intend or expect to be attacked. but it would help to make it so you can at least struggle through.

 

The goal is that a well built /anything/ fully slotted with sets appropriate to fill in it's weaknesses, should be able to handle +4, x1 without any serious trouble. a few struggles? yes. but if responded to in a timely manner you shouldn't find that you die anyways.

 

Afterburner is that fix, after much grueling consideration..

 

edit: I might try a leadership build. but.. not too high hopes. still at least it's worth completing.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Joshex

[Apparition]

Afterburner isn't the fix.  Changing your epic pool from Munitions to... well... anything else would be a start.  Body Armor is just not good, especially when you're aiming for defense.  If you refuse to spend three hours red side for Scorpion Shield, then try Frozen Armor in Cold Mastery.  It isn't as good as Scorpion Shield, but it sure is better than Body Armor.

[MTeague]

21 hours ago, Joshex said:

I had thought of other ancillary pools, I ended up getting Munitions for the body armor surveillance and rocket. besides to get the patron pools you have to do the villain patron archs.. not that I don't want to, but not on a character I want to be pure hero.. if anyone can understand how I feel there.

This much I can understand.  None of my current heroes use Patron powers at all.   I have a few lower level characters who conceptually are much more in the gray area between hero and villain and it's *possible* that some of them might use patron powers.... maybe.  If there isn't a better-fit ancillary pool that speaks more to that character concept.

 

Even my villains, only 40% of them take a Patron Pool.   Most, I'm still happier in terms of character concept with an Ancillary pool.

 

That said.  These are choices I make.  Those choices have consequences.  I means some of my characters have a much harder time pinging a softcap for defense.  I can still build up quite a bit from set bonuses, but some of my characters may end iwth only 30% range defense, not 45%.  I'm okay with that.  And I don't see a need for Afterburner to be changed to accomodate my choices.

 

Heck, if it were up to me, as long as Afterburner was on you would be FORCED into forward motion at top speed.

The ONLY way you could stop would be fly into a wall or toggle it off.

[MTeague]

Also, unless you're a die-hard soloist (And there are some....), it's really not that big a deal if your character only has 30% defense. You'll almost certainly get the remaining amount from misc team buffs, or if you don't, it's quite likely your team will include a tank, or a few controllers/doms, who will do lockdown and set the table for you. 

[Grouchybeast]

4 hours ago, Joshex said:

So the main thing here is Afterburner is a power un-takeable or at least unusuable by the majority of the most potent melee builds (not without significant statistical sacrifices), in otherwords, a power meant for squishies.

Afterburner is a power meant to significantly raise the Flight speed cap, outside of combat, with the limitation of Only Affecting Self to stop it being overwhelmingly better than other travel powers.  The +Def is simply a nice bonus to help avoid snipers while travelling.  Everything about Afterburner is WAI.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Not to be a complete derailer but with all the talk of blasting I just have to poke my head in. OP, I made and played to cap just about every single original blaster set in every combo possible, and deleted every single one of them because they did not meet my personal benchmark. When Dark and Psi got shared to blasters I knew my time had come because I knew what blasters lacked and what they needed. And thus bentley berkeley was born. That was around year 3 if I recall right.

 

After that began my long standing campaign on the old forums to see more blaster sets get some kind of sustain, and see the 2ndary effects of blaster primaries tuned up some to be more comparable to the to hit debuff advantage of dark.

 

The build I use now days, and is pretty akin to the live build( cept I worked in sorcery cus wizard) and am pretty damn happy that in most content his avg to go dif setting is around +2x8, this gets changed in all sorts of ways depending on the mobs. But by in large I avoid +4 on him cept on teams where the to hit is flowing because I depend on drain psyche for sustain and if you get a bad bit of luck on the hitting and dont drain enough things can get rough.

 

+4 is no more a setting to be think your entitle to due to build then x8 is. Even top end IO builds when it comes to certain power combos simply cant do all the heavy lifting. Some sets simply synch up or conflict to the point of being nearly a newb trap in the sense that only players who know the set well enough to build around its flaws will not feel suffering from the choice.

 

One final point, to be blunt OP your opening post, and other posts in this thread come across as extremely me me me in attitude. The idea that because you personally struggle with making a blaster that meets your wants, a power needs to be turned from an out of combat travel utility into an extremely strong in combat defense power. Because you just cant make your blaster work at the power level your happy with just makes me shake my head. Im all for mentoring, teaching others how to make, or play sets and ATs especially blasters. Yet the attitude you display here really does not make you seem like an open minded gamer looking to learn to play something outside your comfort zone.

 

+4 has mostly always been for bragging rights builds and usually on the tank/scrapper types. Its not some typical goal for most players. Bigger groups rather then higher level groups because you will earn way way more at +0x8 on an aoe killer then on +4x1.

 

Not all AT are equal in all potential ways, not all power sets are equal for every task or play style. Learning them, their limits, and what works for you is half the fun, but wanting change to suit your want the way you seem to be motivated to ask for changes for that soul reason well, I wont say the game isnt for you, but you dont exactly feel like a good fit for it to be frank.

[Burnt Toast]

19 hours ago, Joshex said:

I consider the difficulty of x1 to be global. as in every toon should be able to handle x1 (if things are balanced).

 

the way I see it -1,x1 should be what you can handle out of the box or with minimal basic enhancements.

+0, x1 should be what any toon hand handle with up to date normal enhancements of the best kind available at that level. (training, DO or SO)

+1, x1 should be what any toon can handle with 1; careful planning and up-to-date normal enhancements (taking it slow), or 2; a mix of up to date normal enhancements and some IOs.
+2, x1 should be what any toon can handle with 1; almost entirely IOs of the highest level possible, or 2: IOs and some sets. even if they have to take it slow.

+3, x1 should be what any toon can handle with mostly Sets and some IOs. at a moderate pace.

+4, x1 should be what a good build of any toon can handle with all sets fully slotted and catalyzed or boosted. at a moderate pace.

 

I'm not asking for +4, x8 on a blaster here. just blasters should be able to handle x1 when built right. knowing a general feel of statistics and thier battle outcome, I know 30 to 40 def is like +2 to +3 tops.

 

other compelling reasons would be to return fire in event a sniper can actually hit you. and to deal with hidden "stealth or invis" enemies that suddenly lock you down.. and of course ambushes and patrols.

 

even another 20% (50 to 60) def isn't guaranteed to keep you alive in any basic context where you don't intend or expect to be attacked. but it would help to make it so you can at least struggle through.

 

The goal is that a well built /anything/ fully slotted with sets appropriate to fill in it's weaknesses, should be able to handle +4, x1 without any serious trouble. a few struggles? yes. but if responded to in a timely manner you shouldn't find that you die anyways.

 

Afterburner is that fix, after much grueling consideration..

 

edit: I might try a leadership build. but.. not too high hopes. still at least it's worth completing.

Just from the way you are talking about defense etc... I have a feeling you are not built well... especially considering you went with Munitions. THIS could easily be your problem - a bad build - you may want to get others to look at your actual build and offer you advice to help make your blaster sturdier. 

[Joshex]

26 minutes ago, Burnt Toast said:

Just from the way you are talking about defense etc... I have a feeling you are not built well... especially considering you went with Munitions. THIS could easily be your problem - a bad build - you may want to get others to look at your actual build and offer you advice to help make your blaster sturdier. 

I have 2 SL res powers and a large amount of regen and recovery. it's never going to reach the 75% res cap, not even close the powersets and attack types just don't support that, it's grueling to get the bonuses to get it and we aren't talking much.. so the best it can do is pump out def. luckily I will eventually have a def boosting power from my secondary. but yeah I need other options for def. I know munitions has lower def than hover, stealth, combat jumping, and invis. on a tank I would normally pick combat jumping. I could still sacrifice haste and get combat jumping instead. then have both. but, we'll see.

 

I'm well aware of my options, and avoiding damage seems the best possible outcome.