[Afterburner] +def -fly protection ... only effecting self?

[Joshex]

56 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

So now afterburner is OP? Your argument seems to be incoherent.

my argument is changing based upon conditions as they arise in the convo. I have proposed it was unfair that only MM's could fully benefit from afterburner as it's a pool power. I then suggested that MM's are OP to begin with in this department. so to make MMs the only At that can fully utilize it in battle while it's a pool power is like beating a dead horse, and really just rubbing it in the face of other Ats who look at it as a wasted spot in the pool or even a taunt where they wish they could use it too..

 

So Afterburner is OP in this context. I have even suggested dumbing down the def output in battle in exchange for using it while attacking. to me this seems a valid trade as really no one should complain, it'd then add the same benefits to all ATs.

[Apparition]

Any Mastermind player worth his or her salt would keep Afterburner off while in combat, because of secondary and other pool powers that could be used.  My level 50+3 MM has Afterburner, but I have not once ever used it in combat because of other powers I need to use, like Sonic Siphon, Sonic Dispersion, Disruption Field, Maneuvers, Tactics, etc.  You're seeing something that doesn't happen.  And MMs are OPed?  Please.  

[Wavicle]

Without meaning to be rude, the reason you are seeing so much pushback against this idea is because our experience of the game does not align with the things you are saying.

[The Godchild]

We're just trying to point out that half of his attempts to get +def seems to require dipping into powers that have high +def but come with the jarring stipulation of "only affecting self" to balance that out since squishies aren't suppose to have access to high personal +def without a suitable drawback or picking a very specific set like FF.

 

Its been one loooooooong argument over +def powers that also tag on "only affecting self", even that MM build he posted had not only PFF active in the final numbers, but invis as well which ALSO has "only affecting self' tied to it and states that openly in the info and has ALWAYS been like that since live as well. So that's soft cap def yes....but that's also 3 powers you have to keep turning on and off to do anything...

 

...also, ninjas are probably the squishiest of the pet MM's by far. This +def build is even more detrimental to the pets since ninjas kinda require a fair amount of babysitting to keep alive from what I've seen over the years.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by The Godchild

[Omega-202]

17 hours ago, Joshex said:

yeah it came with the MM secondary. it's "only effecting self" yes. but it's a secondary. not a pool power, so as a secondary it's understandable it'd be built for an MM to take advantage of. where as pool powers should be for everyone not just a single AT.

Have you tried playing a MM who sits in his bubble all day?  You contribute nothing when you're in the bubble and your pets get massacred in seconds.  

 

You should try playing the game more instead of theorycrafting on things you have no clue about.  

[Joshex]

fine, I can see this is going nowhere. and there will be no convincing you to change Afterburner.

 

how about another pool power in the flight set which requires 2 flight pool powers and lv 25 and grants more moderate flight def as a toggle?

 

reason being, I kinda like the mobility of [fly], I just wish that pool had more to offer that was usable for my build.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Joshex

[Omega-202]

13 minutes ago, Joshex said:

fine, I can see this is going nowhere. and there will be no convincing you to change Afterburner.

 

how about another pool power in the flight set which requires 2 flight pool powers and lv 25 and grants more moderate flight def as a toggle?

 

reason being, I kinda like the mobility of [fly], I just wish that pool had more to offer that was usable for my build.

Sorcery pool.  Others have already suggested it in this thread.  Have you taken a look at Rune of Protection?

[The Godchild]

32 minutes ago, Joshex said:

how about another pool power in the flight set which requires 2 flight pool powers and lv 25 and grants more moderate flight def as a toggle?

 

reason being, I kinda like the mobility of [fly], I just wish that pool had more to offer that was usable for my build.

...so now you move off to wanting to change something else just so you can get more +def? Its called 'Hover'...that's the in-combat option for flight, it gives +def...as does combat jumping, maneuvers...stealth, weave...there's plenty of +def powers out there....just not with the numbers you seem to be expecting and frankly...demanding at this point :/

 

Seriously, just stop. Please...I really would prefer to not come off as a dick, though at this point I kinda don't care anymore. You're persistence in trying to get your way while everyone else is saying "No, you can't have that because it makes no god damn sense just because 'you' want it" is just kinda mind boggling. We all seem to understand how the game works much better then you do and you seem to be implying that you know better because *insert reason here when someone figures it out eventually*.

 

Either learn how the IO and set system works and get your +def from sets like everyone else does...or don't and continue to struggle despite multiple people trying to show you other options....Or play a fucking Sentinel, that is the exact kinda setup you're after and multiple people have pointed that out.

 

Again, can we please get a mod to lock this thread...any semblance of hope or understanding is long gone and its gonna degrade into shitposting at this rate...sorta already has actually.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by The Godchild

[Joshex]

4 hours ago, The Godchild said:

...so now you move off to wanting to change something else just so you can get more +def? Its called 'Hover'...that's the in-combat option for flight, it gives +def...as does combat jumping, maneuvers...stealth, weave...there's plenty of +def powers out there....just not with the numbers you seem to be expecting and frankly...demanding at this point 😕

 

Seriously, just stop. Please...I really would prefer to not come off as a dick, though at this point I kinda don't care anymore. You're persistence in trying to get your way while everyone else is saying "No, you can't have that because it makes no god damn sense just because 'you' want it" is just kinda mind boggling. We all seem to understand how the game works much better then you do and you seem to be implying that you know better because *insert reason here when someone figures it out eventually*.

 

Either learn how the IO and set system works and get your +def from sets like everyone else does...or don't and continue to struggle despite multiple people trying to show you other options....Or play a fucking Sentinel, that is the exact kinda setup you're after and multiple people have pointed that out.

 

Again, can we please get a mod to lock this thread...any semblance of hope or understanding is long gone and its gonna degrade into shitposting at this rate...sorta already has actually.

 

Reasons:

1: you may be aware, in the stealth pool we have stealth and Invisibility, invisibility has better def than stealth and only requires 1 other power from the stealth pool and LV14, granted Invis cannot be on at the same time as Hover (a possible consideration), but they exist in the same pool.

2: you can only take 4 power pools, so you take hover, stealth(4.5%), Invis (9%), combat jumping (cannot work the same time as hover, movement type conflict fly vs jump? right?), tough and weave, not necessarily in that order. thats 4 pools. now we cannot take leadership. so now we'd need to rely on the epic pool if we want more. whereas afterburner is there in flight, it could have been another def power supplying just that little more def.

 

However:

1: MM and squishy players seem to rely on Afterburner for travel protection and 0# 5#!7 moments.

2: other players are happy with it as is.

 

So:

break the stalemate;

[Flight Field], the power that causes you to break away from gravity and fly can be focused into a field around you to redirect attacks that would normally hit out of the way to a moderate extent. A flight power must be active to use this power, You must be Lv14 and have selected 1 other power in the flight pool to take this power. 4.5% def (all), -flight speed in combat.

[MTeague]

I do not see any need to break any stalemate. I do not even recognize a stalemate since my position is "Working as Designed, Change Nothing".

You have articulated your desire, several times, over the course of this thread. 

 

I find it extremely unlikely that the devs will agree with you. However, I am not a dev, and who knows. Stranger things have happened.

If you are looking to get other posters to agree with you, I think it should be blindingly obvious by now that your stance is in the DISTINCT minority, and we're not talking about "well maybe" softly-held-opinions. You're trying to get people to agree to changing a fundamental principle of characters design that's been in place since issue 0. 

 

Quite simply, good luck with that. 

 

Blasters are meant to be squishy.  Pool powers that provide defense, generally fall into 1 of 2 categories

• toggle powers that provide a very SMALL amount of defense (Manuevers, Combat Jumping, Hover, etc)
• click powers that provide a LARGE bonus to defense, but come with a LARGE cooldown and literally by design cannot be made permanent. (Rune of Protection, Unleash Potential, etc)

There are a few other outliers. 

• Vengeance provides a very large buff, but requires a human teammate's character to DIE. This is it's limiting factor.
• Afterburner provides a very large buff, but limits you to Only Affecting Self.  This is it's limiting factor. 

I completely disagree with your vision for Afterburner. 

Many reasoned arguments have been presented in this thread and I agree with ALL of them that oppose your idea. 

Again, you can appeal to devs, and who knows, maybe, they'll agree with you instead of everyone else.

I wouldn't bet on it though. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by MTeague

[Joshex]

10 hours ago, MTeague said:

I do not see any need to break any stalemate. I do not even recognize a stalemate since my position is "Working as Designed, Change Nothing".

You have articulated your desire, several times, over the course of this thread. 

 

I find it extremely unlikely that the devs will agree with you. However, I am not a dev, and who knows. Stranger things have happened.

If you are looking to get other posters to agree with you, I think it should be blindingly obvious by now that your stance is in the DISTINCT minority, and we're not talking about "well maybe" softly-held-opinions. You're trying to get people to agree to changing a fundamental principle of characters design that's been in place since issue 0. 

 

Quite simply, good luck with that. 

 

Blasters are meant to be squishy.  Pool powers that provide defense, generally fall into 1 of 2 categories

• toggle powers that provide a very SMALL amount of defense (Manuevers, Combat Jumping, Hover, etc)
• click powers that provide a LARGE bonus to defense, but come with a LARGE cooldown and literally by design cannot be made permanent. (Rune of Protection, Unleash Potential, etc)

There are a few other outliers. 

• Vengeance provides a very large buff, but requires a human teammate's character to DIE. This is it's limiting factor.
• Afterburner provides a very large buff, but limits you to Only Affecting Self.  This is it's limiting factor. 

I completely disagree with your vision for Afterburner. 

Many reasoned arguments have been presented in this thread and I agree with ALL of them that oppose your idea. 

Again, you can appeal to devs, and who knows, maybe, they'll agree with you instead of everyone else.

I wouldn't bet on it though. 

Pool powers that provide +def fall in to 3 categories not 2

the one you missed:

Toggle powers that provide exactly double the def of the weaker +def power in the set (Invisibility 9%, stealth 4.5%)

I know from CoH titan that several of the devs agreed and have had many conversations about how as the game progressed they built it for the tanks and survival units because of an increasing player ability to push those limits. at issue 0 blasters were able to handle a lot more because the enemies were easier. it was designed that way. many of thew devs from titan agree that blasters really need a boost in this department to keep them alive in general situations. because they were largely ignored and left behind as the game got harder.

 

blasters were not meant to be /THIS/ squishy. they deserve a bit extra def.

[The Godchild]

*sigh* Here we go again...

 

11 hours ago, Joshex said:

1: you may be aware, in the stealth pool we have stealth and Invisibility, invisibility has better def than stealth and only requires 1 other power from the stealth pool and LV14, granted Invis cannot be on at the same time as Hover (a possible consideration), but they exist in the same pool.

...again, better def at the cost of "only affecting self"...that's not a viable in-combat option.

 

11 hours ago, Joshex said:

2: you can only take 4 power pools, so you take hover, stealth(4.5%), Invis (9%), combat jumping (cannot work the same time as hover, movement type conflict fly vs jump? right?), tough and weave, not necessarily in that order. thats 4 pools. now we cannot take leadership. so now we'd need to rely on the epic pool if we want more. whereas afterburner is there in flight, it could have been another def power supplying just that little more def.

We've established that you plan to just sit in your PFF bubble doing nothing because of that precious +def and +res it adds. Leadership would be utterly pointless to have since your pets would be getting 0 benefit from it anyway AND you can take more +def powers that affect only you instead!

 

11 hours ago, Joshex said:

1: MM and squishy players seem to rely on Afterburner for travel protection and 0# 5#!7 moments.

No, no they do not :P No one 'relies' on Afterburner for anything other then getting from one place to another slightly faster then baseline Fly. Anyone that 'relies' on AB is doing probably several things wrong and should probably have someone look into that. Stop trying the blanket-assume everyone does things without any definitive proof.

 

11 hours ago, Joshex said:

2: other players are happy with it as is.

...So why are we closing in on Page 5 on this travesty of a topic that should have ended like 4 pages ago.

 

11 hours ago, Joshex said:

break the stalemate;

Uh, its only a stalemate for you buddy....you're the one trying to break down a brick wall with your own head, not us...

 

11 hours ago, Joshex said:

[Flight Field], the power that causes you to break away from gravity and fly can be focused into a field around you to redirect attacks that would normally hit out of the way to a moderate extent. A flight power must be active to use this power, You must be Lv14 and have selected 1 other power in the flight pool to take this power. 4.5% def (all), -flight speed in combat.

I don't know how often you've heard "No, you cannot have what you want. Stop asking." in your life, but apparently not enough if you're persistently pushing and asking like a child who wants something at the store and thinking their parent will cave in if they keep begging for it. What's up next...temper tantrums? Causing a scene...Calling them bad parents (or community in our case...) because they don't love you enough to give you what you want?

 

41 minutes ago, Joshex said:

Pool powers that provide +def fall in to 3 categories not 2

the one you missed:

Toggle powers that provide exactly double the def of the weaker +def power in the set (Invisibility 9%, stealth 4.5%)

...oh, so the third group is "Toggle powers that aren't suppose to be used in actual combat"...riiiiiight, gotcha, sure that's important >.>

 

41 minutes ago, Joshex said:

blasters were not meant to be /THIS/ squishy. they deserve a bit extra def.

 

...welp, what passed for nice-gloves are off and long-gone now...

18 hours ago, The Godchild said:

Learn how the IO and set system works and get your +def from sets like everyone else does...

Buddy, you are legit the biggest lost cause I have ever seen. I'm just gonna start posting memes now because you are obviously refusing to listen to ANYTHING anyone is telling you and I'm slowly warming to the idea this is an elaborate troll because no one could possible be this intentionally stupid and/or stubborn after nearly 5 pages of people saying the exact....same....thing...in response to your terrible and extremely self-centered ideas about an AT that has been and always will be...a baseline 'squishy' AT right outta the box if you don't put the effort into sets and LEARNING the games actual systems rather then assuming what you think is right and badgering the devs to change things to match your expectations.

 

...am I being an asshole yet? I kinda feel like I'm properly situated onto the 'asshole' side of the fence after that...and I don't regret it :P

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by The Godchild

[Joshex]

27 minutes ago, The Godchild said:

...again, better def at the cost of "only affecting self"...that's not a viable in-combat option.

 

We've established that you plan to just sit in your PFF bubble doing nothing because of that precious +def and +res it adds. Leadership would be utterly pointless to have since your pets would be getting 0 benefit from it anyway AND you can take more +def powers that affect only you!

 

No, no they do not 😛 No one 'relies' on Afterburner for anything other then getting from one place to another slightly faster then baseline Fly. Anyone that 'relies' on AB is doing probably several things wrong and should probably have someone look into that. Stop trying the blanket-assume everyone does things without any definitive proof.

 

...So why are we closing in on Page 5 on this travesty of a topic that should have ended like 4 pages ago.

 

Uh, its only a stalemate for you buddy....you're the one trying to break down a brick wall with your own head, not us...

 

I don't know how often you've heard "No, you cannot have what you want. Stop asking." in your life, but apparently not enough if you're persistently pushing and asking like a child who wants something at the store and thinking their parent will cave in if they keep begging for it. What's up next...temper tantrums? Causing a scene...Calling them bad parents (or community in our case...) because they don't love you enough to give you what you want?

 

...oh, so the third group is "Toggle powers that aren't suppose to be used in actual combat"...riiiiiight, gotcha, sure that's important >.>

 

 

...welp, what passed for nice-gloves are off and long-gone now...

Buddy, you are legit the biggest lost cause I have ever seen. I'm just gonna start posting memes now because you are obviously refusing to listen to ANYTHING anyone is telling you and I'm slowly warming to the idea this is an elaborate troll because no one could possible be this intentionally stupid and/or stubborn after nearly 5 pages of people saying the exact....same....thing...in response to your terrible and extremely self-centered ideas about an AT that has been and always will be...a baseline 'squishy' AT right outta the box if you don't put the effort into sets and LEARNING the games actual systems rather then assuming what you think is right and badgering the devs to change things to match your expectations.

 

...am I being an asshole yet? I kinda feel like I'm properly situated onto the 'asshole' side of the fence after that...and I don't regret it 😛

 

you lose, you've shown obvious lack of knowledge about the game if you think Invisibility makes you "only effecting self". hint I can still fight with it on and it doesn't decrease movement speed like stealth does.. it's all around better.

 

it's the proof that this is the kinda thing the original devs would consider. it's the proof that they weren't worried about blasters becoming less squishy. it negates every argument on that topic.

 

Oh, and I know how to IO, you assume I don't but my tank can pawn everything, it's got excessive damage, incredible surviveability and self rez. all without touching the click type boost. thats only for big bosses.

 

you and others flaming this thread are assuming 2 things;

1: that I don't know what I'm doing, that I don't know how to IO, and that I'm an idiot who has no clue that mids exists and am just winging it. the core argument being, if I was serious about making a good blaster, someone could help me because I'm obviously a moron. ~ which I'm not.

2: you then insinuate that.. actually there is no good way to make a blaster, they are intentionally death bait by the devs and no one will want to change this..

 

so, then by that logic how is it that anyone can make a better blaster than my build? using the same powersets and a focus on damage and def. the answer is you're saying, "stop trying, just be squishy and shut up"

 

no.

 

blasters are /too/ squishy. the devs need to take a look at ways to make them tougher, Arcana last I talked with her held this opinion too. (she?) said that given the power she would change defiance to something else entirely. said it was a stupid idea to merely allow attacking while under status effects, and that blasters should get more surviveability.

 

I'm saying, with enough possible +def pool powers in pools blasters are inclined to take, this is not an issue. so long as they don't raise the game's floor mob diff again.

 

also may I negate your argument where you say no one relies on afterburner? because I was only summarizing people's opinions for why they use it in this thread. they use it for those 2 reasons, flight protection between missions and Oh crap moments. thats the summary of peoples opinions of people who actually use it.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Joshex

[Vanden]

9 minutes ago, Joshex said:

you lose, you've shown obvious lack of knowledge about the game if you think Invisibility makes you "only effecting self". hint I can still fight with it on and it doesn't decrease movement speed like stealth does.. it's all around better.

 

it's the proof that this is the kinda thing the original devs would consider. it's the proof that they weren't worried about blasters becoming less squishy. it negates every argument on that topic.

Invisibility used to put you in Only Affecting Self, but that was changed by Homecoming, not the original devs.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Vanden

[Joshex]

7 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Invisibility used to put you in Only Affecting Self, but that was changed by Homecoming, not the original devs.

wrong answer.

 

I've got pre-shut down mids. it doesn't state that in the description and I know people who used it preshut down.

 

in combat or while interacting with an object it reduces your +stealth substantially. that was the only caveat, that after one group if there was an ambush they'd definitely see you.

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, Joshex said:

wrong answer.

 

I've got pre-shut down mids. it doesn't state that in the description and I know people who used it preshut down.

 

in combat or while interacting with an object it reduces your +stealth substantially. that was the only caveat, that after one group if there was an ambush they'd definitely see you.

 

On 8/27/2019 at 9:48 AM, Leandro said:

• Pools > Concealment > Invisibility:  Endurance cost lowered from 0.65 to 0.2275. You are now be able to attack while this power is active, but should you attack, all it's defense will suppress.

[Joshex]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

well, they had a reason. and the def doesn't disappear. i could see them do the same thing with afterburner, half the def in combat.

 

[Blackfeather]

7 minutes ago, Joshex said:

well, they had a reason. and the def doesn't disappear. i could see them do the same thing with afterburner, half the def in combat.

 

About that...

Quote

Powers: Stealth

• All self-stealth toggles should now recharge in 2 seconds.
• Pools > Concealment > Stealth: No longer slows the user down.
• Pools > Concealment > Invisibility:  Endurance cost lowered from 0.65 to 0.2275. You are now be able to attack while this power is active, but should you attack, all it's defense will suppress.
• Illusion Control > Superior Invisibility: Endurance cost lowered from 0.52 to 0.182.

[Omega-202]

53 minutes ago, Joshex said:

 blasters are /too/ squishy. the devs need to take a look at ways to make them tougher, Arcana last I talked with her held this opinion too. (she?) said that given the power she would change defiance to something else entirely. said it was a stupid idea to merely allow attacking while under status effects, and that blasters should get more surviveability.

This is just more proof that you don't know how to build your Blaster.  I've built S/L/R softcapped Blasters that can nuke through +4/8 with the best of them.  Hell, people have done deathless Master ITFs with a Blaster.  

 

The issue isn't Blasters being too squishy, its you.  The game is already too easy for most people, to the point that there were threads just last week asking if something should be changed to make things harder.  

 

The fact that you think people use Afterburner for defense is laughable.  Nobody with any sense has ever relied on it for that.  

[Grouchybeast]

 

44 minutes ago, Joshex said:

I've got pre-shut down mids. it doesn't state that in the description and I know people who used it preshut down.

 

in combat or while interacting with an object it reduces your +stealth substantially. that was the only caveat, that after one group if there was an ambush they'd definitely see you.

 

1. Mids is not always accurate and does not always match the real in-game numbers.

2. Mids ESPECIALLY is not accurate and does not always match in-game numbers when you are using an extremely out-of-date version of Mids.

3. Blasters already received a huge buff in I24.  I assume this isn't reflected in your version of Mids, which is extremely out-of-date.

[AerialAssault]

Blasters have, and always will be, Glass Cannons. That's their entire design philosophy. 

 

And I'm not interested in uprooting that because one person couldn't play Blaster very well.

[The Godchild]

*gets caught up since last post...munches popcorn*

[MTeague]

@Joshex, 

• In four pages worth of posts, not a single poster has upvoted a single one of your posts on this thread. Not one.
• Not one other poster has supported the idea of Afterburner offtering you in-combat defense.  Not one.  
• As @Blackfeather pointed out, Invisibility was formally changed by the devs to drop ALL of it's defense when you attack. Whether your old version of mids shows it having defense is immaterial. 
• You have been offered many ideas on how to make your blaster less squishy within the existing framework.  So far as I can tell,  you have disregarded all of them.

if you want to keep arguing for an extra defense pool power that honestly would make characters even more overpowered than they already can be, you do that.

I have sufficient faith that the devs know what they're doing, and will decide this idea is a bad one.

 

I do not concede.  I believe your idea is a bad one from every angle of game design.

But since you do not seem to care what is posted or what arguments are raised, I will make no further replies to this thread for any reason.

[Joshex]

lets just say, I played a blaster for the majority of the time from 2006 to 2012. tried other ATs briefly for a few months here and there, finally realized tanks were really what the game was designed for.

 

yeah you can mitigate deaths being prepared and having a place to dive into, and targetting the right enemy first, but, that doesn't always apply, eventually you'll run into a hidden enemy you can't target around a corner. if you get too close even with invis by the time you buff and target you'll have to focus on them. but what if, suddenly an ambush, or another hidden group behind a box?

 

ded blaster.

 

It's not how well you play, I mean you could spend the time ghosting each area of the map and slow down your progress just to see where everything is and then still miss some group that will agro on you unexpectedly, yeah usually with a few quick insps you might be able to pull through, but that's not always the case, such as in sudden surprise EB right after your build-ups just went on recharge because you just nuked a yellow group.

 

It's not that I don't know how to play a blaster. I know that really well. it's that, after playing them for so long, they just.. get old. fast. they just aren't viable full time ATs they need a lot of work in play style, especially for sets which have lesser damage such as elec and ice blasting.

 

it's also not that I don't know how to build a blaster, it's again just that even with a good build you really get pushed to a team, soloing becomes a trial.

 

regardless, CoH has it's flaws, maybe that's why in your opinion the game isn't built for this kinda "abuse" where afterburner or even invis could still grant def in combat. I took this topic to the discord chat and we all agreed, and I hope you will too, that it's probably not best to modify these pool powers at all. it's the blaster ancillaries that need reworks. especially munitions armor. We agreed such powers probably should give better benefits especially in the def department and should probably be toggles not click type or auto.

 

While I still think afterburner is a cruel joke. I'll leave it at that.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Joshex

[The Godchild]

*...he's gone from adding a new power to modifying epics now...munitions does need a little work its true...progress, yay? *

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by The Godchild