-Res and KB (?)

[roleki]

Every so often I'll take my Ice/TA out for a drive, and the past few times I have done so, I have noticed an odd... thing happening.  Basically speaking, Disruption Arrow is somehow blowing mobs out of the AoE of an unlit Oil Slick Arrow, but not an ignited OSA.  Goes like this:

 

1) Flash Arrow (slotted 1x Siphon Insight Acc/TH, 1x Siphon Insight Acc/Rech)

2) OSA (slotted 5x Ragnarok minus KD proc, 1x Annihilation -Res proc)

3) Disruption Arrow (slotted 2x Rech IO)

4) Mobs blown violently out of AoE, like easily 10' from where they were standing.

 

But, if I do this:

 

1) Flash Arrow

2) OSA

3) Ignite OSA

4) Disruption Arrow

5) Mobs flop around, burning like they should

 

What I *think* is happening is the -Res proc and the Disruption Arrow -Res are combining to give negative -KB resistance (?) and it's multiplying the pulses of KB from OSA.  I think.  Does that sound right?  Or is this some kind of bug?

[Peacemoon]

I’ve never heard of -res enhancing knockdown potency into knockback.

 

I have seen examples where multiple knockdowns happen simultaneously to create enough magnitude for a knockback. Could that be happening?

 

If there is a link with -res it’s not something I’ve picked up on personally.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

What I *think* is happening is the -Res proc and the Disruption Arrow -Res are combining to give negative -KB resistance (?) and it's multiplying the pulses of KB from OSA.  I think.  Does that sound right?

That sounds correct.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

I’ve never heard of -res enhancing knockdown potency into knockback.

 

I have seen examples where multiple knockdowns happen simultaneously to create enough magnitude for a knockback. Could that be happening?

 

If there is a link with -res it’s not something I’ve picked up on personally.

It's not something I've run into very often myself, either, and I run a lot of -Res and KB-type characters.  I wish I knew more (anything) about how procs and pseudopets work, because as I understand it, the -Res proc in OSA just fires off when I initially use the power, not when the Oil Slick pseudopet is summoned, or when the burning slick is summoned.  If it works differently, I might have to reload OSA with more procs because it accepts a small slew of them.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

That sounds correct.

If it's correct I can live with it, but it seems weird to me. 

[Peacemoon]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

That sounds correct.

How does -res interact with knockdown to turn it into a knockback? Genuinely curious. I have used a enervating field on an ice slick and I can’t remember it creating this effect. Also freezing rain does -res and knockdown.

 

[Uun]

What happens if you don't fire Disruption Arrow (and don't light Oil Slick)? Alternatively, what happens if you unslot the -res proc (and don't light Oil Slick)? Curious if you need both -res to get the kb or if just one will do it. Either way, I would report it as a bug.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

How does -res interact with knockdown to turn it into a knockback? Genuinely curious.

LINK

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

How does -res interact with knockdown to turn it into a knockback? Genuinely curious. I have used a enervating field on an ice slick and I can’t remember it creating this effect. Also freezing rain does -res and knockdown.

 

I think knockdown is just really, really low-magnitude knockback; I've noticed that if I throw a KD power at a way-gray mob, they fly backward as if it were KB.  But there has to be more to it than that, because I've slotted Gale with KB:KD and still sent low-level mobs flying.

 

In any event, I think this is down to some interaction between Disruption Arrow and the unlit OIl Slick.  This afternoon, I took the Annihilation -Res proc out of OSA and it was still throwing random mobs out of the AoE in the Portal parking lot.  Yellow-con Death Mages seem to be as liable to go flying as gray Possessed Scientists.  If the slick is already on fire when I throw Disruption Arrow, nothing has flown out (so far).

 

ETA: not really relevant, but I seem to get better mileage out of the -Res proc than I did a Positron's Blast proc.  With the -Res proc, each tick of damage rounds up 2, whereas the damage proc hits once (when the slick is lit) and maybe hits one one guy in the group for 147 or whatever.  With the -Res proc slotted, OSA gets rid of Lt's and Minions in one application.  That was interesting (to me).

Edited June 9, 2020 by roleki

[Peacemoon]

Thanks. I understand that knockdowns are just low mag knockbacks (I wasn’t aware of how different knockUPs are though). 
 

But I still don’t get is how -res powers in this scenario would change oil slick from a knockdown to a knockback. To me it sounds like there is some strange interaction going on between oil slick and disruption arrow. Does disruption arrow light the oil slick? I’m not too familiar with trick arrow sorry. My only though is that somehow two pseudo pets are overlapping to create a knockback.

[Patti]

Can we do a pass through the powers list to change every instance of 0.67 knockback to 0.67 knockup?

[roleki]

16 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Thanks. I understand that knockdowns are just low mag knockbacks (I wasn’t aware of how different knockUPs are though). 
 

But I still don’t get is how -res powers in this scenario would change oil slick from a knockdown to a knockback. To me it sounds like there is some strange interaction going on between oil slick and disruption arrow. Does disruption arrow light the oil slick? I’m not too familiar with trick arrow sorry. My only though is that somehow two pseudo pets are overlapping to create a knockback.

Honestly, pseudopets are a mystery to me, and /TA is full of them.  They had links to them in the old City of Data but I am fairly sure the links didn't work back then, either.  

 

In any event, the Oil Slick will ignite if fire or energy are used in its vicinity.  In the old days, my Ice/TA had to use friggin' Taser Dart to light it, but these days I use the ranged blast out of the Sorcery pool to make it go.

 

As far as how -Res would result in a >1.0 mag KB, I don't KNOW; I've looked and looked at the explanation for how Resistance fits into the damage calculation a million times and every time I think I've got it, I really don't.  That said, if you divide a low magnitude KB (like 0.67)  by a moderate magnitude -Res (like 0.20) you get a positive number like 3.35, and given the KB distance I am seeing against the level mobs I am seeing it affect,  that seems like a plausible number.  So maybe somewhere in the Rube Goldberg damage calculation that sort of math is happening?  

[ZekeStenzland]

Is it possible that the disruption arrow  is debuffing knockback resist? Seems unlikely, but maybe doing mag 0.8 knockback vs -0.75 knockback resist is treated like a mag 1.05 effect? Someone with a power analyzer might be able to confirm or rule out this possibility. 
 

I’ve heard Clockwork take extra effect from knockback and maybe this is how it’s implemented for them.

[Redlynne]

Low level Clockworks (Atlas, Echo Galaxy, King's Row, Steel Canyon, Skyway, Faultline, etc.) are all vulnerable to Knockback.  They basically have a -Resistance to Knockback.  This means that powers that would otherwise just do knockdowns to other mobs do knockback to these low level Clockworks.  Even moderate knockbacks (greater than mag 1) will tend to hurl Clockworks back further because knockback has an increased effect on Clockworks.

 

It's rare to have an increased vulnerability to knockback (a -Resistance to Knockback, effectively) ... but it's not impossible.  Low level Clockworks just happen to be a classic example of it.  But that also means that the mathematical interaction that causes that kind of behavior to happen is founded/grounded in the way the game processes effects like Knockback, and Disruption Arrow may be having a curious interaction with that due to the pulse cycle of its effects and possible stacking(!) of the -Resistance debuffing from Sonic Disruption Arrow that results in a magnification of the Knockback done by the Oil Slick.  Essentially, if the Oil Slick is placed inside of a Sonic Disruption Arrow effect, that magnifies/multiplies the Knockback from down to back strength due to how Oil Slick is affected/modified (as a Foe) by Sonic Disruption Arrow when Oil Slick get summoned/manifested.  However, if you reverse the sequencing to put down Oil Slick Arrow first and then layer Sonic Disruption Arrow afterwards, the same magnification/multiplication of Knockback strength doesn't occur because the Oil Slick was there "first" and wasn't being debuffed in a way that increases Knockback from the time when it was summoned (if that makes any sense).

 

In other words, an edge case created by the timing of the order of operations which is not symmetrical in outcomes of effects.

Chicken ... meet egg.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

How does -res interact with knockdown to turn it into a knockback? Genuinely curious. I have used a enervating field on an ice slick and I can’t remember it creating this effect. Also freezing rain does -res and knockdown.

 

 

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

LINK

Where in that link do you talk about Resistance Debuffs applying to Knockback/Up/Down? That's what Peacemoon is asking about. Resistance debuffs only apply to damage, not knockback.

[Bopper]

6 hours ago, roleki said:

Every so often I'll take my Ice/TA out for a drive, and the past few times I have done so, I have noticed an odd... thing happening.  Basically speaking, Disruption Arrow is somehow blowing mobs out of the AoE of an unlit Oil Slick Arrow, but not an ignited OSA.  Goes like this:

 

1) Flash Arrow (slotted 1x Siphon Insight Acc/TH, 1x Siphon Insight Acc/Rech)

2) OSA (slotted 5x Ragnarok minus KD proc, 1x Annihilation -Res proc)

3) Disruption Arrow (slotted 2x Rech IO)

4) Mobs blown violently out of AoE, like easily 10' from where they were standing.

 

But, if I do this:

 

1) Flash Arrow

2) OSA

3) Ignite OSA

4) Disruption Arrow

5) Mobs flop around, burning like they should

 

What I *think* is happening is the -Res proc and the Disruption Arrow -Res are combining to give negative -KB resistance (?) and it's multiplying the pulses of KB from OSA.  I think.  Does that sound right?  Or is this some kind of bug?

What was your level, what level were the enemies, and what enemies were they? Also, are you incarnate shifted?

[Redlynne]

49 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Where in that link do you talk about Resistance Debuffs applying to Knockback/Up/Down? That's what Peacemoon is asking about. Resistance debuffs only apply to damage, not knockback.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Low level Clockworks (Atlas, Echo Galaxy, King's Row, Steel Canyon, Skyway, Faultline, etc.) are all vulnerable to Knockback.  They basically have a -Resistance to Knockback.  This means that powers that would otherwise just do knockdowns to other mobs do knockback to these low level Clockworks.  Even moderate knockbacks (greater than mag 1) will tend to hurl Clockworks back further because knockback has an increased effect on Clockworks.

 

It's rare to have an increased vulnerability to knockback (a -Resistance to Knockback, effectively) ... but it's not impossible.  Low level Clockworks just happen to be a classic example of it.  But that also means that the mathematical interaction that causes that kind of behavior to happen is founded/grounded in the way the game processes effects like Knockback, and Disruption Arrow may be having a curious interaction with that due to the pulse cycle of its effects and possible stacking(!) of the -Resistance debuffing from Sonic Disruption Arrow that results in a magnification of the Knockback done by the Oil Slick.  Essentially, if the Oil Slick is placed inside of a Sonic Disruption Arrow effect, that magnifies/multiplies the Knockback from down to back strength due to how Oil Slick is affected/modified (as a Foe) by Sonic Disruption Arrow when Oil Slick get summoned/manifested.  However, if you reverse the sequencing to put down Oil Slick Arrow first and then layer Sonic Disruption Arrow afterwards, the same magnification/multiplication of Knockback strength doesn't occur because the Oil Slick was there "first" and wasn't being debuffed in a way that increases Knockback from the time when it was summoned (if that makes any sense).

 

In other words, an edge case created by the timing of the order of operations which is not symmetrical in outcomes of effects.

Chicken ... meet egg.

I didn't think about what effect Disruption Arrow would have on the Oil Slick itself, that's pretty groovy.

 

That said, I never fire DA ahead of OSA (DA is usually fired between planting OSA and igniting the slick).  Reason being - I'm an Ice/TA, if I miss out on 8 or 10 damage per mob I can ACTUALLY notice it, so I want the -Res in play before I set things on fire.

Edited June 9, 2020 by roleki

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

What was your level, what level were the enemies, and what enemies were they? Also, are you incarnate shifted?

Ice/TA is either 50+2 or 50+3, and I've observed this running that little circuit around the Portal Corps parking lot, so it's usually an assortment of -1 CoT, Nemesis and Malta with the occasional Rikti and Carnival. 

 

Of those, it's CoT that are affected the most, and oddly enough, usually level 50 Death Mages.  When there's a group of two, I can pretty much count on one of them miraculously popcorning out of harm's way and spending the next 41 minutes harassing me as I ply my arsenal of harmless slaps and mean looks at his doomed comrade.

[Luminara]

Disruption Arrow does occasionally cause Interrupt on Interrupt susceptible foes, but there is no interaction between -Resistance and K*.  There's no code for it, no tables, no references to cross, so if it is bugged, it's not at that end.

 

If the critters you're fighting have KB protection applied from a power which can be Interrupted, that would cause KD to scale up to KB, but if that were the case, OSA's KD would have already Interrupted them and the behavior would be reproducible without DA.

 

There haven't been any changes in Resistance, -Resistance or TA, and to the best of my knowledge, the only KB change has been the addition of the KB - KD proc, so there's little to investigate on that front.

 

Which leaves third party asshattery, Incarnate abilities and procs as the most likely culprits.  You said you have no KB proc in OSA, and I don't recall any existing for DA.  That narrows it down to the former two, either someone using a KD or KB power to screw with you, or Incarnate abilities.

 

Do any of your Incarnate abilities enhance KB?

 

Or... do you happen to have Sleet or Freezing Rain next to DA on your tray, or in a tray slot above or below your primarily used tray?

[Bopper]

13 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Which leaves third party asshattery, Incarnate abilities and procs as the most likely culprits

We can also consider the recent underthehood changes to Knockback vectoring. So far, nothing has been discovered that the change had any impact to K*, but we can't rule it out as a possibility.

[Luminara]

11 hours ago, Bopper said:

We can also consider the recent underthehood changes to Knockback vectoring. So far, nothing has been discovered that the change had any impact to K*, but we can't rule it out as a possibility.

 

I'd forgotten about that.  Thank you.

 

A bug could've been introduced in that change, but if there was an unintended and unanticipated interaction between K* and -Res, there should be reports all over the forums, give the popularity and wide availability of -Res, and the increased of acceptance of KB due to the KB-KD proc.  The vector change shouldn't have altered OSA's KD in any way, since OilSlickOil's KD was already radial from itself, being a PBAoE.  None of the other PBAoE K* powers are causing KB, apparently, and there are more than enough -Res powers and procs for it to have been noticed and reported by multiple other people.  There's just no chatter indicating this.

 

@Redlynne's speculation is interesting, but the conclusion erroneous, since OSA is always first in the attack sequence, the reverse order of what she suggests might cause an increase in K* mag.  If -Res increased K* mag when it was applied after the K*, it should also be much more prevelant and easily reproducible by anyone with -Res and K*.  And, again, there aren't any other reports of that.  And DA can't self-stack on the initial usage, and only self-stacks for 0.25s every subsequent 5s, so it wouldn't be capable of causing increased K* mag until 5s after the fact.

 

@roleki's observations point to OilSlickTarget, not DA, because it only occurs when OST is present, but that's not actually possible.  OST only has one critter-interactive ability, a -100 Threat reduction.  No attacks, no K*, and the only -Res it applies is to itself.  The only interaction between OST and DA is -Res, and we know that neither -Res on a target with +Res, nor stacked -Res (both would apply to OST), cause K*.  There just isn't anything there to cause or increase the mag of K*.  Unless the HC team have been toying with Threat reduction code.

 

The increased frequency of occurence with Death Mages is suggestive.  Kamikaze is Interruptible... but doesn't cause K*, as far as I can tell, and wouldn't be used at the beginning of a fight, or send the critter using it flying.  No information is available (to me) on whether or not Death Mages are susceptible to K*, or have a power which provides status effect protection and can be Interrupted.  That's something that can be tested, if anyone's interested.

 

I believe there's something else going on.  Another player in the background using a K* power, an overlooked proc, an Incarnate ability which increases status effects/K*, or use of a second K* power unintentionally (which would definitely be all but imperceptible in OSA's graphics).  Those are the possibilities which seem most likely.

[Bopper]

FWIW, I tested an Ice/TA Controller on Beta last night, trying different slotting with resistance debuff procs, stacking Ice Slick and OSA, anything that would get the enemies to fly. Never happened for me. It might help if you show your build and list out in exact details of what you do to a mob that can replicate it. 

 

My guess is you're level shifted and you might have sracked OSA and Ice Slick just right and the Disruption Arrow was coincidental. OSA and Ice Slick do 0.50 KB every 0.2s, so if you face lower con enemies, stacking those two effects with purple patch scaling could result in KB.

 

But if you can truly reliably replicate it, please tell us everything you can so we can do the same. But right now, there is nothing to suggest resistance debuffs impacts knockback. That is not correct game mechanics. Could there be a bug that has a resistance debuff include knockback when it should only be damage? Sure. But that would be a bug, not mechanics.

[Patti]

Wait.  Was vectorknock finished?   I thought aprilbrawls day was just prototype buggy code.

[Bopper]

19 minutes ago, Patti said:

Wait.  Was vectorknock finished?   I thought aprilbrawls day was just prototype buggy code.

My understanding is the vectorknock has been implemented, however April Fool's Brawl was the only time we've seen what the vectorknock can do. Everything else we should have seen no change in performance.